Your browser isn't supported
It looks like you're using an old web browser. To get the most out of the site and to ensure guides display correctly, we suggest upgrading your browser now. Download the latest:

Welcome to the MSE Forums

We're home to a fantastic community of MoneySavers but anyone can post. Please exercise caution & report spam, illegal, offensive or libellous posts/messages: click "report" or email forumteam@.

Search
  • FIRST POST
    • lisyloo
    • By lisyloo 8th Apr 18, 1:22 PM
    • 21,716Posts
    • 10,495Thanks
    lisyloo
    Attendance allowance under deferred agreement
    • #1
    • 8th Apr 18, 1:22 PM
    Attendance allowance under deferred agreement 8th Apr 18 at 1:22 PM
    My MIL is in a nursing home.
    She was funded by the LA but her husband has died so she;s has now gained a property which will no longer be disregarded.
    There will have to be a deferred agreement for fees as we cant pay until the property is sold.
    Who gets the attendance allowance in the short term?
    Does the LA/nursing home get it and deduct it from the bill, or do I need to start gett8ng it paid to MIL as a private payer.

    Thanks - have lots going on due to recent passing (and its sunday so cant phone anyone)
Page 1
    • Danday
    • By Danday 8th Apr 18, 3:39 PM
    • 346 Posts
    • 59 Thanks
    Danday
    • #2
    • 8th Apr 18, 3:39 PM
    • #2
    • 8th Apr 18, 3:39 PM
    Sorry to hear of your loss.

    I am told that when a LA pays the fees, they insist that AA is claimed as part of the arrangement and is paid to the home to top up the LA's contribution.

    It is a distressing time trying to sort out these things.

    Did your MIL & FIL not make provision for their child/children whist they were both fit and healthy by using a trust? The property could have either been placed in a discretionary trust for the child/children or the child/children could have had the property transferred under a simple trust. These actions have to take place well before any thought of them needing care with at least a 7 year gap before death.
    Taking these actions in tandem with a good solicitor could well have avoided the house being sold to benefit the LA.

    I wish you well in this difficult time.
    • NeilCr
    • By NeilCr 8th Apr 18, 4:05 PM
    • 1,530 Posts
    • 2,012 Thanks
    NeilCr
    • #3
    • 8th Apr 18, 4:05 PM
    • #3
    • 8th Apr 18, 4:05 PM
    Sorry to hear of your loss.

    I am told that when a LA pays the fees, they insist that AA is claimed as part of the arrangement and is paid to the home to top up the LA's contribution.
    Originally posted by Danday
    Can you say who told you this please? It's always helpful for a poster, especially someone in a difficult position, to give some citation so they can understand where the information comes from.

    I am not saying you are wrong. I don't know the answer but suspect you may be right. But background always helps

    OP. I, too, wish you well at such a difficult time.
    • Mojisola
    • By Mojisola 8th Apr 18, 4:21 PM
    • 29,099 Posts
    • 74,389 Thanks
    Mojisola
    • #4
    • 8th Apr 18, 4:21 PM
    • #4
    • 8th Apr 18, 4:21 PM
    My MIL is in a nursing home.

    She was funded by the LA but her husband has died so she;s has now gained a property which will no longer be disregarded.

    There will have to be a deferred agreement for fees as we cant pay until the property is sold.

    Who gets the attendance allowance in the short term?

    Does the LA/nursing home get it and deduct it from the bill, or do I need to start gett8ng it paid to MIL as a private payer.
    Originally posted by lisyloo
    My Dad was on a deferred payment scheme while his house was sold.

    The council paid up to their maximum contribution and I paid the excess out of Dad's money directly to the care home. He received his pension, PC and AA just as he had when he had lived at home.

    The council had a charge on the house and that bill was paid when it was sold.
    • Danday
    • By Danday 8th Apr 18, 4:21 PM
    • 346 Posts
    • 59 Thanks
    Danday
    • #5
    • 8th Apr 18, 4:21 PM
    • #5
    • 8th Apr 18, 4:21 PM
    Can you say who told you this please? It's always helpful for a poster, especially someone in a difficult position, to give some citation so they can understand where the information comes from.

    I am not saying you are wrong. I don't know the answer but suspect you may be right. But background always helps

    OP. I, too, wish you well at such a difficult time.
    Originally posted by NeilCr
    I am not an expert on any of that. I dealt with a solicitor who was absolutely brilliant.
    He advised us both that we should be protecting our assets and cash should there ever be a need for care in our later life. we were in our late 50's when we started it (approx.10 years ago). Young enough to make sure it would prove that none of it was done to avoid the LA or anyone else getting at all of our assets.
    We had a power of attorney prepared for each of us citing our two children as those that were given those powers. We had a discretionary trust prepared into which all of my capital was transferred whilst we were not claiming any form of means tested benefit. Next was the property this was half put in that trust with the other half transferred via a simple trust into our two childrens; names. Both children completed a post/pre nup agreement to protect us.

    Legally we no longer own anything and don't have capital beyond the 10,000 allowed by virtue of PC.
    The end result is that we/our children are in control if we ever need to go into care.

    My advice - go and see a good solicitor that deals with these types of things every week.
    Of course it will cost money but look at it as an insurance policy
    • Mojisola
    • By Mojisola 8th Apr 18, 4:23 PM
    • 29,099 Posts
    • 74,389 Thanks
    Mojisola
    • #6
    • 8th Apr 18, 4:23 PM
    • #6
    • 8th Apr 18, 4:23 PM
    I am told that when a LA pays the fees, they insist that AA is claimed as part of the arrangement and is paid to the home to top up the LA's contribution.
    Originally posted by Danday
    lisyloo's mother will now be assessed as a self-funder.

    The council are only lending the money, not paying the fees per se.
    • Ames
    • By Ames 8th Apr 18, 4:36 PM
    • 17,137 Posts
    • 30,122 Thanks
    Ames
    • #7
    • 8th Apr 18, 4:36 PM
    • #7
    • 8th Apr 18, 4:36 PM
    Can you say who told you this please? It's always helpful for a poster, especially someone in a difficult position, to give some citation so they can understand where the information comes from.

    I am not saying you are wrong. I don't know the answer but suspect you may be right. But background always helps

    OP. I, too, wish you well at such a difficult time.
    Originally posted by NeilCr
    There was a thread on the disability board where someone requiring care at home via social services was expected to claim AA to help cover the cost. Most posters agreed this was reasonable, however Danday was a lone voice claiming it was terrible.
    Unless I say otherwise 'you' means the general you not you specifically.
    • NeilCr
    • By NeilCr 8th Apr 18, 6:11 PM
    • 1,530 Posts
    • 2,012 Thanks
    NeilCr
    • #8
    • 8th Apr 18, 6:11 PM
    • #8
    • 8th Apr 18, 6:11 PM
    I am not an expert on any of that. I dealt with a solicitor who was absolutely brilliant.
    He advised us both that we should be protecting our assets and cash should there ever be a need for care in our later life. we were in our late 50's when we started it (approx.10 years ago). Young enough to make sure it would prove that none of it was done to avoid the LA or anyone else getting at all of our assets.
    We had a power of attorney prepared for each of us citing our two children as those that were given those powers. We had a discretionary trust prepared into which all of my capital was transferred whilst we were not claiming any form of means tested benefit. Next was the property this was half put in that trust with the other half transferred via a simple trust into our two childrens; names. Both children completed a post/pre nup agreement to protect us.

    Legally we no longer own anything and don't have capital beyond the 10,000 allowed by virtue of PC.
    The end result is that we/our children are in control if we ever need to go into care.

    My advice - go and see a good solicitor that deals with these types of things every week.
    Of course it will cost money but look at it as an insurance policy
    Originally posted by Danday
    And yet, here, at #13 it is your wife's property and she can evict you

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=74016517

    Did the solicitor advise you on AA rules?

    That would be helpful to the OP
    • batg
    • By batg 8th Apr 18, 7:30 PM
    • 89 Posts
    • 89 Thanks
    batg
    • #9
    • 8th Apr 18, 7:30 PM
    • #9
    • 8th Apr 18, 7:30 PM
    I don't think that talking about how something was done 10 years ago by yourself will be much use to the OP who is asking about something that is currently occurring?
    I am not an expert on any of that. I dealt with a solicitor who was absolutely brilliant.
    He advised us both that we should be protecting our assets and cash should there ever be a need for care in our later life. we were in our late 50's when we started it (approx.10 years ago). Young enough to make sure it would prove that none of it was done to avoid the LA or anyone else getting at all of our assets.
    We had a power of attorney prepared for each of us citing our two children as those that were given those powers. We had a discretionary trust prepared into which all of my capital was transferred whilst we were not claiming any form of means tested benefit. Next was the property this was half put in that trust with the other half transferred via a simple trust into our two childrens; names. Both children completed a post/pre nup agreement to protect us.

    Legally we no longer own anything and don't have capital beyond the 10,000 allowed by virtue of PC.
    The end result is that we/our children are in control if we ever need to go into care.

    My advice - go and see a good solicitor that deals with these types of things every week.
    Of course it will cost money but look at it as an insurance policy
    Originally posted by Danday
    Jeeez, the poor wife!
    • Alice Holt
    • By Alice Holt 8th Apr 18, 7:47 PM
    • 1,936 Posts
    • 2,231 Thanks
    Alice Holt
    Does the LA/nursing home get it and deduct it from the bill, or do I need to start getting it paid to MIL as a private payer.

    I would have thought it would be payable to the MIL.

    Have you looked into the Registered Nursing Care Contribution from the NHS if nursing care is required?
    I don't know if this might be applicable or not.
    • sheramber
    • By sheramber 8th Apr 18, 8:51 PM
    • 4,484 Posts
    • 3,374 Thanks
    sheramber
    And yet, here, at #13 it is your wife's property and she can evict you

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=74016517

    Did the solicitor advise you on AA rules?

    That would be helpful to the OP
    Originally posted by NeilCr
    As usual, Danday makes his past experiences fit the question asked. he forgets what he has already stated elsewhere.
    • marliepanda
    • By marliepanda 8th Apr 18, 9:21 PM
    • 5,459 Posts
    • 11,312 Thanks
    marliepanda
    As usual, Danday makes his past experiences fit the question asked. he forgets what he has already stated elsewhere.
    Originally posted by sheramber
    I am shook to my very core. I have never been more surprised at this!
    • lisyloo
    • By lisyloo 9th Apr 18, 9:21 AM
    • 21,716 Posts
    • 10,495 Thanks
    lisyloo
    I am told that when a LA pays the fees, they insist that AA is claimed as part of the arrangement and is paid to the home to top up the LA's contribution.
    MIL was already in receipt of AA. I'm not sure whether it's paid to the home or to the LA but it's definitely not paid to her.
    I'm asking where it gets paid whilst she's (probably) a fee payer but not actually physically paying the fees.
    Last edited by lisyloo; 09-04-2018 at 9:35 AM.
    • lisyloo
    • By lisyloo 9th Apr 18, 9:28 AM
    • 21,716 Posts
    • 10,495 Thanks
    lisyloo
    Did your MIL & FIL not make provision for their child/children whist they were both fit and healthy by using a trust?
    Short answer is no.
    They were/are unsophisticated people and probably never heard of trusts. He worked in a factory and her in a supermarket so the more complex legal/financial instruments (incuding trusts) were outside of their radar.
    I have taken care of things in reent years but she would not let anyone else take control until she had dimensia i.e. when it was too late.
    They did have wills (not updated for 28 years) and life assurance.
    We did get POA for FIL but that doesn't help now.

    These actions have to take place well before any thought of them needing care with at least a 7 year gap before death.
    7 years is for IHT purposes but I believe what you are talking about would fall uder deliberate deprivation.

    Taking these actions in tandem with a good solicitor could well have avoided the house being sold to benefit the LA.
    Not sure I agree with you. What makes you think that avoids "deliberate deprivation".
    Anyway - whilst I totally agree with you that this is a lesson for people to get their house in order, it's not actually that helpful after the event for this query (although I appreciate many comments many be helpful to others).

    As I said they were unsophistiated people, born in the 1920's and left school at 14, so uneducated. They were not internet users and would not be aware of trusts or have any concept of any reasons to consult solicitors. Whilst I agree they were wrong - it's a fait accompli and now too late to change.

    thanks for your help
    Last edited by lisyloo; 09-04-2018 at 9:47 AM.
    • lisyloo
    • By lisyloo 9th Apr 18, 9:31 AM
    • 21,716 Posts
    • 10,495 Thanks
    lisyloo
    My advice - go and see a good solicitor that deals with these types of things every week.
    Good advice for others, but it's way to late for the planning side of things.
    • lisyloo
    • By lisyloo 9th Apr 18, 9:34 AM
    • 21,716 Posts
    • 10,495 Thanks
    lisyloo
    I would have thought it would be payable to the MIL.

    Have you looked into the Registered Nursing Care Contribution from the NHS if nursing care is required?
    I don't know if this might be applicable or not.
    Originally posted by Alice Holt
    Yes, she qualifies for the NHS nursing care fees (155.10 per week).
    These are paid direct to the home and would therefore reduce the fees.

    AA will also reduce the fees and she has already qualified.
    The question is just where it gets paid to in the short/medium term.

    I've just got a contact at the LA so I will update after I receive a response from them.
    I'll also contact the AA unit and let them sort out where to pay it.
    Last edited by lisyloo; 09-04-2018 at 9:47 AM.
    • pmlindyloo
    • By pmlindyloo 9th Apr 18, 9:53 AM
    • 11,400 Posts
    • 13,289 Thanks
    pmlindyloo
    here is another help line that you can contact:

    https://www.carersuk.org/help-and-advice/financial-support/help-with-benefits/attendance-allowance

    Click on Talk to Us on the left hand side.
    • lisyloo
    • By lisyloo 9th Apr 18, 10:24 AM
    • 21,716 Posts
    • 10,495 Thanks
    lisyloo
    I have called the Attendance allowance unit and they have said it will be paid to her when she become a private payer.

    I have asked the LA when she becomes a private payer (by email) and I'm waiting for their response.
    I am not expecting a 12-week property disregard as she's been in the home for 7 months, but will wait to be advised by them.

    Suprisingly the pension credit people said they would not stop her pension credit immediate and would ask us for updates on the sale of the home (going to take a while as we need deputyship from the court of protection).

    Thanks for the help
    • NeilCr
    • By NeilCr 9th Apr 18, 10:47 AM
    • 1,530 Posts
    • 2,012 Thanks
    NeilCr
    I have called the Attendance allowance unit and they have said it will be paid to her when she become a private payer.

    I have asked the LA when she becomes a private payer (by email) and I'm waiting for their response.
    I am not expecting a 12-week property disregard as she's been in the home for 7 months, but will wait to be advised by them.

    Suprisingly the pension credit people said they would not stop her pension credit immediate and would ask us for updates on the sale of the home (going to take a while as we need deputyship from the court of protection).

    Thanks for the help
    Originally posted by lisyloo
    Thanks for the update.

    That's useful information for us all. I spent a bit of time on Google trying to find the answer!

    I hope it goes as well as it can for you
    • Mojisola
    • By Mojisola 9th Apr 18, 10:49 AM
    • 29,099 Posts
    • 74,389 Thanks
    Mojisola
    I am not expecting a 12-week property disregard as she's been in the home for 7 months, but will wait to be advised by them.
    Originally posted by lisyloo
    My Dad was given the 12 week disregard even though he had already been in the home for some weeks so it may be possible.
Welcome to our new Forum!

Our aim is to save you money quickly and easily. We hope you like it!

Forum Team Contact us

Live Stats

3,187Posts Today

6,266Users online

Martin's Twitter
  • I've decided my weekend starts here while the sun's glow is still baskable. So I'm signing off. Have a great weeke? https://t.co/9FxNEpDs6p

  • No not correct. The big six do, but you can get fixed tariffs guaranteed not to rise and about 25% cheaper. Just tr? https://t.co/B2ft5OS3Ig

  • Baaaa! Scottish Power has bleated and followed the herd, today announcing it's putting up energy prices by 5.5%. R? https://t.co/vi3hBxo4Hn

  • Follow Martin