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  • FIRST POST
    • flammable999
    • By flammable999 7th Apr 18, 9:21 AM
    • 102Posts
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    flammable999
    Staving off a potential family dispute
    • #1
    • 7th Apr 18, 9:21 AM
    Staving off a potential family dispute 7th Apr 18 at 9:21 AM
    I have a potential situation on my hands and was wondering if anyone had any advise as I get lost in a minefield of potential documents and pitfalls.

    Ten years ago, I took on the mortgage from my father via him gifting the deposit to me, i.e whatever equity was still in the property. They signed paperwork saying they had no further interest in the property. However, my sister who was over 18 at the time, did not sign anything. She just verbally said she wanted nothing to do with it.

    Fast forward ten years and my sister is suddenly miffed that my parents did not provide her with any security. Now my father wants ownership to be joint again, so should they die, their share goes to her. The thing is, even if we did that, they are in no position to pay their share of the mortgage. In theory, I don't mind carrying on to pay the mortgage but should something happen to my father, then I don't see why my sister should get any more than 50% of the equity my father my originally put in prior to gifting the property to me. I don't see why she should get 50% of what the house was valued at when I took it on, let alone what it is worth now. We are all scared that because my sister did not sign anything ten years ago, she has a case to get me turfed out.

    There is still a mortgage on the property. Anyone got an ideas if there is a way to accomodate all of the above and at same time ensure she only gets 50% of my fathers original equity?
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    • DigForVictory
    • By DigForVictory 7th Apr 18, 7:13 PM
    • 7,982 Posts
    • 24,045 Thanks
    DigForVictory
    Your beloved wife is a tenant in common?
    If not, why not?

    If you do not currently have a Will, write one, making it very clear every tuppence goes to the missus & child but that in acknowledgement of your sister "missing out" on the family home, she gets a ten pound note or ten lb of garden soil couriered to her present address in full & final settlement of her charming timing. Her choice (& pick a solid pal who happens to play rugby & is an easy to intimidate as the rock of Gibraltar as executor.)

    Dad may have after-the-fact doubts, but he's about to become a grandfather. Eyes front, focus on your future & while it would be nice to have an Aunt who is friendly, she's not worth stress or money to achieve that.
    • ashe
    • By ashe 7th Apr 18, 8:14 PM
    • 544 Posts
    • 405 Thanks
    ashe
    You said this is cultural, isn!!!8217;t this normally done because you will be taking care of your parents in lieu of putting them into care? They!!!8217;ll live with you, not your sister, in the house you live in which is their contribution to you for that forthcoming care.

    You need to contextualise that with your parents as from the soundness of it she won!!!8217;t be able to provide that care
    • jackomdj
    • By jackomdj 7th Apr 18, 8:37 PM
    • 2,861 Posts
    • 3,563 Thanks
    jackomdj
    So you were gifted 95k.

    do your parents pay rent to you? Who pays for repairs etc?

    Assuming they don't pay rent I would agree to taking the 95k, less a calculated rent value (over the length your parents reside in the property since your ownership), then split that by 50%, but only payable once your parents are no longer in the property.

    It sounds like she wants her "cut" of your inheritance, although you have had it, you are tied in until they are no longer living at the property as you can't access it.
    • moneyistooshorttomention
    • By moneyistooshorttomention 8th Apr 18, 6:03 AM
    • 16,411 Posts
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    moneyistooshorttomention
    So she didn't want to help your parents out when they needed it, now has her own home and is willing to put your home at risk while your wife is expecting your first child? Nice.

    I would be very wary of giving her anything now.

    If your parents needed care, they may be assessed as still having the amount that they gifted you and you would need to find the money to pay for their care.
    Originally posted by Mojisola
    I think that is a slant that doesn't belong on this. Maybe sister had very good reasons not to help at the time - eg couldnt afford it. The fact OP is due to have a child isnt anyone else's concern (hers or anyone else) and isnt a "get out of jail free card".

    I very much doubt money given so long ago would be taken into account if assessing parental care and, anyway, OP said he has no intention of them going into care. A lot of people don't ever need "care" anyway. Obviously, it is fair to say that IF OP's parents ever actually do need some sort of "care" whilst staying put living in this house - then sister is equally liable to help out with that. But I guess the question of that hasnt arisen - as "care" is something only some people require (not all of us).

    Maybe part of the reason why father wants to make the gift fairly shared now is in case he/his wife ever require any sort of "care in the home" and he wants to know sister won't be too p**d-off at financial unfairness to help with this.
    Last edited by moneyistooshorttomention; 08-04-2018 at 6:09 AM.
    ****************
    • warby68
    • By warby68 8th Apr 18, 6:38 AM
    • 995 Posts
    • 9,806 Thanks
    warby68
    OP, what a tricky position.

    It doesn't sound as if sister has any legal challenge to the situation. The house was never hers and she never unfairly lost any right to occupy it. If you put the situation back to what it was when you took over, everyone might have been homeless if you hadn't.

    Your dad sounds either confused and/or rather selfish, trying to get himself out of a bind with daughter by making it your problem. It seems like he still views this as a family asset which he still owns/controls and all the legal stuff about putting it in your name was just necessary 'paperwork' to sort the mortgage out and he can ignore all that. It could well be that he has encouraged sister in that view but now she's 'seen the light' and realizes you do actually legally and fully own it, she's furious.

    I know you want family harmony and peace and maybe feel you got a bit more than your rightful share but to be honest what you took on plus your inherent commitment to house and care indefinitely for parents, who can't do this for themselves, is very significant.

    I think I'd want to put the onus on dad to understand and explain to sister the reality. Perhaps you could do something so that dad could build a smaller pot to eventually leave to daughter - perhaps you could refund a portion of what he's paid on bills or some of the original gifted when you remortgage or perhaps take less off him towards expenses going forward so he can save something up. I think it needs to remain something for dad to put right with daughter and if you want to help him in some way, fair enough. I don't think it should be you giving a huge chunk straight to her.

    PS Make sure everyone has wills made
    Last edited by warby68; 08-04-2018 at 10:57 AM.
    • Sea Shell
    • By Sea Shell 8th Apr 18, 7:39 AM
    • 869 Posts
    • 1,323 Thanks
    Sea Shell
    Can I just add...after reading another unrelated thread about marriage. We don't know which culture you're from, but on another thread a couple were "Married" in the eyes of their family and culture, but it was not valid under UK law. This would have a huge bearing on what would happen if you died intestate.

    Either way, you need to make sure you have watertight wills ASAP, to protect your wife and future children.
    " That pound I saved yesterday, is a pound I don't have to earn tomorrow "
    • Detroit
    • By Detroit 8th Apr 18, 8:38 AM
    • 747 Posts
    • 2,332 Thanks
    Detroit
    Agreed. Not that I would ever stick him or either of them in a home but any kind of care costs money. I understand he wants to now look out for his daughter but I am hurt its at the detriment to his other child especially with me ensuring the house stays with us, all of us for the last ten years.

    I am also hurt that my sister has brought this issue up now of all times. Even if it was six months down the line would have been better. My wife is pregnant and is now beside herself with worry. Am trying to tell her not to worry but its easier said than done. Even if sis has no legal rights, its still a potentially rubbish atmoshphere. I would like to think there are similar things happening in other households because I feel rather embarassed about it all
    Originally posted by flammable999
    In your position, I wouldn't feel hurt. You have after all been given 95k by your father, while your sister has been given nothing.

    While I take your point that by paying the mortgage you have retained the house for your family to live in, as this resulted in you owning the house with a large gifted deposit, it's not a purely altruistic act on your part.

    You could, for example, have given your father the money to pay his mortgage and he kept ownership of the house if your only motive was to help him.

    I'm not saying you should have done this, just that you shouldn't get too caught up in the idea of your own selflessness, when you have clearly benefited from the arrangement.

    In legal terms, you need give your sister nothing, but if you want to stave of a family feud, it may be helpful to see this from the perspective of the others involved.

    Your father has given you 95k and your sister nothing. He now regrets that. Your sister has belatedly realised you've had something she hasn't. Neither are happy. You are well within your rights to say 'tough', and they stay unhappy.

    However, if you want to make them happy you could make arrangements to pay your sister something.

    What will not help is to try to convince them you have the moral high ground because of your help to your father, when in fact the arrangement clearly benefited you.


    Put your hands up.
    • Mojisola
    • By Mojisola 8th Apr 18, 9:54 AM
    • 29,630 Posts
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    Mojisola
    You have after all been given 95k by your father, while your sister has been given nothing.

    What will not help is to try to convince them you have the moral high ground because of your help to your father, when in fact the arrangement clearly benefited you.
    Originally posted by Detroit
    And also benefited the parents who have had ten years of rent-free living so far.
    • Detroit
    • By Detroit 8th Apr 18, 10:19 AM
    • 747 Posts
    • 2,332 Thanks
    Detroit
    And also benefited the parents who have had ten years of rent-free living so far.
    Originally posted by Mojisola
    They have paid 95k for the privilege.

    However, I would agree the arrangement between OP and his father was of mutual benefit.


    Put your hands up.
    • Mossfarr
    • By Mossfarr 8th Apr 18, 12:28 PM
    • 496 Posts
    • 709 Thanks
    Mossfarr
    You do not need to swap to a repayment mortgage you can simply overpay each month (usually) up to a maximum of 10% of the outstanding mortgage over the year. Any amount you overpay will reduce the capital so well worth doing. You can change to a repayment mortgage in the future when your in a better financial position.
    This also leaves you with the flexibility of just paying the interest for a period of time if your income temporarily drops - such as a period of maternity leave.
    In my view your sister is not entitled to anything and no matter what you offer her she will not be satisfied.
    • Sea Shell
    • By Sea Shell 11th Apr 18, 6:27 AM
    • 869 Posts
    • 1,323 Thanks
    Sea Shell
    Hi OP, how's it going? Have you had a chance to sit down with Father ,Sister, Wife and discuss everything?
    " That pound I saved yesterday, is a pound I don't have to earn tomorrow "
    • flammable999
    • By flammable999 12th Apr 18, 6:42 PM
    • 102 Posts
    • 21 Thanks
    flammable999
    Hi OP, how's it going? Have you had a chance to sit down with Father ,Sister, Wife and discuss everything?
    Originally posted by Sea Shell
    Hey not just yet. Sis is currently undergoing some aggressive testing to do with side effects from her illness decades ago so not the best time. I have had some time to calm down and mull it over. Although her timing is strange, its not as if she demanded my dad get her share of the house or anything. It was more, dad prob panicked and felt he should try and do something. It doesnt change my stance on anything but I will prob give it a bit more time before broaching the subject. I guess its their prerogative to do so first anyway
    • Mojisola
    • By Mojisola 12th Apr 18, 9:44 PM
    • 29,630 Posts
    • 75,763 Thanks
    Mojisola
    I have had some time to calm down and mull it over.

    Although her timing is strange, its not as if she demanded my dad get her share of the house or anything. It was more, dad prob panicked and felt he should try and do something.

    It doesnt change my stance on anything but I will prob give it a bit more time before broaching the subject.

    I guess its their prerogative to do so first anyway
    Originally posted by flammable999
    Why not just wait for them to raise it again - if they do.

    If they've had calmer thoughts about it, it may never be mentioned again.
    • armchaireconomist
    • By armchaireconomist 13th Apr 18, 12:27 PM
    • 299 Posts
    • 360 Thanks
    armchaireconomist
    I think you're bang on OP - the house is yours, and her "gift" is the financially security YOU gave your parents. If she wanted a share, she should have contributed. Make sure she is aware of the amount of payments you have made as a result that she CHOSE not to help with.
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