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  • FIRST POST
    • Yorkie1804
    • By Yorkie1804 6th Apr 18, 12:57 PM
    • 15Posts
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    Yorkie1804
    Combined Parking Solutions Notification of Legal Proceedings
    • #1
    • 6th Apr 18, 12:57 PM
    Combined Parking Solutions Notification of Legal Proceedings 6th Apr 18 at 12:57 PM
    Apologies if this is covered elsewhere in the wealth of information available, but I have spent several hours researching this. I have discovered that CPS do take a few people to court each year but not many. Brief outline of events so far, and will of course provide more detail if advised accordingly by reputable people. (having also read how certain people will pose under different names and give fake advice!)
    So, PCN issued in 2015,
    NTK received and replied to, requesting an appeal, nothing heard (i did post a thread at the time but it is now closed and not sure if they can be re-opened?)
    Several letters from Debt Recovery Plus with the usual harassment to pay ever increasing costs or a final offer
    I now have a letter from CPS headed Notification Of Legal Proceedings (in suitably large scary red bold font!) giving me a choice of paying 100 within 14 days or allow the matter to proceed to court and complete the enclosed Pre Action Protocol documents
    I intend to dispute this but want to know if I should treat this as a LBC, or would this only come from a Solicitor? If I do respond to this, is this the time to ask for further details and information from CPS or do I just wait for the solicitor's letter and then respond
    Thanks in advance for any guidance, and apologies again if this thread was not necessary
Page 1
    • Castle
    • By Castle 6th Apr 18, 1:17 PM
    • 2,007 Posts
    • 2,707 Thanks
    Castle
    • #2
    • 6th Apr 18, 1:17 PM
    • #2
    • 6th Apr 18, 1:17 PM
    Your previous thread I presume:-
    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5342559

    A LBC can come from either the parking company or their solicitors; the new pre action protocol states 30 days is the minimum period to reply, not 14.
    • Yorkie1804
    • By Yorkie1804 6th Apr 18, 2:20 PM
    • 15 Posts
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    Yorkie1804
    • #3
    • 6th Apr 18, 2:20 PM
    • #3
    • 6th Apr 18, 2:20 PM
    Thanks for the quick reply, and yes that was mine
    From the wording and enclosures I assumed it was an LBC and will reply accordingly, after a bit more research on here of course
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 6th Apr 18, 2:34 PM
    • 20,237 Posts
    • 31,928 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    • #4
    • 6th Apr 18, 2:34 PM
    • #4
    • 6th Apr 18, 2:34 PM
    Thanks for the quick reply, and yes that was mine
    From the wording and enclosures I assumed it was an LBC and will reply accordingly, after a bit more research on here of course
    Originally posted by Yorkie1804
    You can treat it as one, but check that it fully complies with the Pre-Action Protocol for Debt Claims (PaP). If it doesn't, you write back and require from them everything which you are entitled to receive. Don't let them get away with anything.

    The NEWBIES FAQ sticky, post #2 of this sub-forum will guide you through the entire court process, from LBC right up to the court hearing - use this as your 'go to' for instant answers to most questions you're likely to have.

    EDIT TO ADD

    Forgot to post the link to the PaP - here it is:

    https://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure-rules/civil/pdf/protocols/pre-action-protocol-for-debt-claims.pdf
    Last edited by Umkomaas; 06-04-2018 at 2:43 PM.
    Please note, we are not a legal, residential or credit advice forum, rather one that helps motorists fight private parking charges, primarily at the 'front-end' of the process.
    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Yorkie1804
    • By Yorkie1804 17th Apr 18, 1:41 PM
    • 15 Posts
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    Yorkie1804
    • #5
    • 17th Apr 18, 1:41 PM
    • #5
    • 17th Apr 18, 1:41 PM
    Thanks again for the replies so far. I have spent time looking at the advice on responding to the LBC and taking the PaP into account. Is it worth posting my letter on here for you to have a look at or just get it in the post? Couple of hopefully quick queries which I am sure someone can clarify
    1. Should the LBC be from a named individual and signed, or can it just be from a company
    2. Should I be sending them photographs to back up my defence, or wait for them to request this
    3. I have seen some advice to send the letter back in the normal post rather than recorded or registered? But I was thinking that if I send it recorded and it is refused, this could go against them should the matter proceed further?
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 17th Apr 18, 1:46 PM
    • 3,921 Posts
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    nosferatu1001
    • #6
    • 17th Apr 18, 1:46 PM
    • #6
    • 17th Apr 18, 1:46 PM
    1) Company is of coruse fine. Its just a letter
    2) They wont request, theyll (if the put a claim in) just say you didnt provide any evidence to support it. So you can include photos if you are SURE they help you
    3) ALWAYS send first class, with FREE certificate of posting from the PO counter. If they refuse it then it is PROVEN to not have been served.
    • Yorkie1804
    • By Yorkie1804 19th Apr 18, 12:53 PM
    • 15 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    Yorkie1804
    • #7
    • 19th Apr 18, 12:53 PM
    • #7
    • 19th Apr 18, 12:53 PM
    Thanks for the clarifications
    I have photos that I took myself to show that the space was not clearly marked and there are no signs at the entrances to the car park. I have also taken some Google Street view shots which show over time there are still no signs on the entrance, and also that the signage in the car park and individual spaces has been changed (almost as if they acted on the information in my original appeal, even though they seem to have ignored my letter..)
    I guess there would be 2 potential benefits from sending the photos then, firstly it complies with the PaP and secondly might persuade them to drop the matter
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 19th Apr 18, 2:24 PM
    • 3,921 Posts
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    nosferatu1001
    • #8
    • 19th Apr 18, 2:24 PM
    • #8
    • 19th Apr 18, 2:24 PM
    It might do, they might not

    Howveer if you point out that they have since changed the signs and repainted the car park, firstly your photos might be th eonly photos of the as-is situaiton left, and secondly it shows they at least must implicitly have thought the lines and markings were inadequat e- on balance of probabilities.

    So state that you will rley on this in court, to show there was no possible cause of action as there was no clear obligation on the driver at the time. To continue to a claim will be vexatious as they have no realistic prospect of success, AND they have been made aware of it. The reaosnable response would be for them to drop any pretence.
    • Yorkie1804
    • By Yorkie1804 19th Apr 18, 4:11 PM
    • 15 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    Yorkie1804
    • #9
    • 19th Apr 18, 4:11 PM
    • #9
    • 19th Apr 18, 4:11 PM
    Great stuff, thanks. Have spent several hours editing my response, but it's nice to have another couple of well worded gems to throw in there!
    • IamEmanresu
    • By IamEmanresu 20th Apr 18, 5:48 AM
    • 3,769 Posts
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    IamEmanresu
    CPS tend to rely on CCTV images that their clients supply. Why not ask for a copy of the source of their pics of the car allegedly being in breach of their supposed contract. You are entitled to it.

    That should nail the issue of signs if the CCTV pans around.
    If you want to win - avoid losing first. Here are a few examples
    1. Failing to Acknowledge or Defend https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5760415
    2. Template defences that say nothing https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5818671&page=5#86
    3. Forgetting about the Witness Statement
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 20th Apr 18, 8:16 AM
    • 10,569 Posts
    • 10,408 Thanks
    The Deep
    This is an entirely unregulated industry which is scamming the public with inflated claims for minor breaches of contracts for alleged parking offences, aided and abetted by a handful of low-rent solicitors.

    Parking Eye, CPM, Smart, and another company have already been named and shamed, as has Gladstones Solicitors, and BW Legal, (these two law firms take hundreds of these cases to court each year). They lose most of them, and have been reported to the regulatory authority by an M.P. for unprofessional conduct

    Hospital car parks and residential complex tickets have been especially mentioned.

    The problem has become so rampant that MPs have agreed to enact a Bill to regulate these scammers. Watch the video of the Second Reading in the HofC recently.

    http://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/2f0384f2-eba5-4fff-ab07-cf24b6a22918?in=12:49:41

    and complain in the most robust terms to your MP. With a fair wind they will be out of business by Christmas.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • Yorkie1804
    • By Yorkie1804 20th Apr 18, 1:23 PM
    • 15 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    Yorkie1804
    CPS tend to rely on CCTV images that their clients supply. Why not ask for a copy of the source of their pics of the car allegedly being in breach of their supposed contract. You are entitled to it.

    That should nail the issue of signs if the CCTV pans around.
    Originally posted by IamEmanresu
    Thanks for that one. Not sure if they have CCTV on site, but it's another couple of lines in the response for them to read if nothing else!
    • IamEmanresu
    • By IamEmanresu 20th Apr 18, 3:57 PM
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    IamEmanresu
    Not sure if they have CCTV on site
    You can usually tell from the angle of the pics.

    Were the pics taken with a phone at eye level or are they from up high or are they closely cropped from a zoom. Sometimes the CCTV is on another site and they use it to monitor more than one car park.
    If you want to win - avoid losing first. Here are a few examples
    1. Failing to Acknowledge or Defend https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5760415
    2. Template defences that say nothing https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5818671&page=5#86
    3. Forgetting about the Witness Statement
    • Yorkie1804
    • By Yorkie1804 20th Apr 18, 4:30 PM
    • 15 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    Yorkie1804
    You can usually tell from the angle of the pics.

    Were the pics taken with a phone at eye level or are they from up high or are they closely cropped from a zoom. Sometimes the CCTV is on another site and they use it to monitor more than one car park.
    Originally posted by IamEmanresu
    On the single picture they have sent with the LBC it looks to have been taken on a phone and angled as if to show there is a sign behind it, but this is actually for the adjacent space. I have requested copies of all photographs as well as CCTV recordings and/or stills taken from CCTV
    Last edited by Yorkie1804; 20-04-2018 at 4:42 PM. Reason: Add detail to reply
    • IamEmanresu
    • By IamEmanresu 21st Apr 18, 6:30 AM
    • 3,769 Posts
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    IamEmanresu
    but this is actually for the adjacent space.
    Sounds like this is a DIY ticket by someone on commission trying to fit up the driver. Can you get your own wider angled pics to show the relationship of the sign to the parking space.

    CPS mainly/only rely on self-ticketers who are issued with signs to put up and a phone app. You might want to check the ownership of the site/spaces .. as well as the pics of the location.
    Last edited by IamEmanresu; 21-04-2018 at 6:32 AM.
    If you want to win - avoid losing first. Here are a few examples
    1. Failing to Acknowledge or Defend https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5760415
    2. Template defences that say nothing https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5818671&page=5#86
    3. Forgetting about the Witness Statement
    • Yorkie1804
    • By Yorkie1804 23rd Apr 18, 10:15 AM
    • 15 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    Yorkie1804
    Thanks again. I have a picture of the actual space with no signs and general site pics showing the sporadic signage at the time as well as more recent pictures with improved signage. As mentioned earlier this will show that steps were taken to address inadequate signage. I have included a request for ownership details as well as contracts and site maps. Will be quite a long letter for them to digest!
    • IamEmanresu
    • By IamEmanresu 23rd Apr 18, 11:56 AM
    • 3,769 Posts
    • 6,181 Thanks
    IamEmanresu
    I have included a request for ownership details as well as contracts and site maps.
    If I were a PPC, I'd tell you to swivel and get your own information

    1. "Ownership" is different from occupation and it is usually the occupier who contracts with a PPC. You can ask the local council who pays the commercial rate (called Non-Domestic Rates) who will give you the name of the occupier.

    2. With regards to the "contract", as a PPC I'd tell you that the contract was commercially confidential and it will be produced at court IF the judge asks for it. What you should really be asking for is a copy of the wording on the signs that were there on the day. And proof of when that sign was installed. You might get the wording but they are unlikely to know the second part as PPCs don't usually know or even make a note of it. This is a major advantage to a defendant which is why the PPC brethren prefer to play dumb about the "contract" and give misleading answers.

    3. Again if I were a PPC, I'd tell you to get a sitemap from Google Street View and identify the placings yourself. This is mainly because people don't check - not even the PPC's themselves.
    If you want to win - avoid losing first. Here are a few examples
    1. Failing to Acknowledge or Defend https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5760415
    2. Template defences that say nothing https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5818671&page=5#86
    3. Forgetting about the Witness Statement
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 24th Apr 18, 12:11 AM
    • 63,875 Posts
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    Coupon-mad
    You can ask the local council who pays the commercial rate (called Non-Domestic Rates) who will give you the name of the occupier.
    Do the above, to the letter.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • Yorkie1804
    • By Yorkie1804 24th Apr 18, 2:17 PM
    • 15 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    Yorkie1804
    If I were a PPC, I'd tell you to swivel and get your own information

    1. "Ownership" is different from occupation and it is usually the occupier who contracts with a PPC. You can ask the local council who pays the commercial rate (called Non-Domestic Rates) who will give you the name of the occupier.

    2. With regards to the "contract", as a PPC I'd tell you that the contract was commercially confidential and it will be produced at court IF the judge asks for it. What you should really be asking for is a copy of the wording on the signs that were there on the day. And proof of when that sign was installed. You might get the wording but they are unlikely to know the second part as PPCs don't usually know or even make a note of it. This is a major advantage to a defendant which is why the PPC brethren prefer to play dumb about the "contract" and give misleading answers.

    3. Again if I were a PPC, I'd tell you to get a sitemap from Google Street View and identify the placings yourself. This is mainly because people don't check - not even the PPC's themselves.
    Originally posted by IamEmanresu
    1. Have emailed the Local Council to request details
    2. Will edit letter to request date of installation of signs. I may have a photo of the signs in other areas of the car park but is it best to let the PPC answer that one
    3. I have downloaded a number of street view images which I believe help my argument.Is it best to include them with the reply to the LBC, hoping this will persuade them to drop the case before issuing court proceedings? And should I still request a site map from them, as even if they ignore it will show they have not dealt with my requests in relation to the PaP?

    Thanks again for the help so far. Glad I started this stage early so I can fine tune my response and get it back within the 30 days
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 24th Apr 18, 9:34 PM
    • 63,875 Posts
    • 76,527 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Is it best to include them with the reply to the LBC, hoping this will persuade them to drop the case before issuing court proceedings? And should I still request a site map from them, as even if they ignore it will show they have not dealt with my requests in relation to the PaP?
    Yes and yes.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
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