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  • FIRST POST
    • driver_needing_help
    • By driver_needing_help 1st Apr 18, 9:38 PM
    • 7Posts
    • 12Thanks
    driver_needing_help
    Euro Car Park charging for Disabled Parking
    • #1
    • 1st Apr 18, 9:38 PM
    Euro Car Park charging for Disabled Parking 1st Apr 18 at 9:38 PM
    Hi all,


    As a newbie I've read the Newbie parking thread which is really helpful!! I had a quick question which I've not been able to find an answer to.


    Some Background info first...Myself and a disabled friend parked in a disabled bay in a private car park in England (run by Euro Car Parks). There was no signage next to the disabled parking bays and from a quick read of the signage at the entrance to the car park, the only requirements for using a disabled bay were to display a valid blue badge, which we did. On return to the car park 2 hours later, a ticket had been put on the windscreen. Re-reading the sign at the car park entrance, there is a line in the T&C's saying there are 'no concessions for disabled spaces' but this info is not with the rest of the disabled text which was next to a big wheelchair logo.


    I am in the process of complaining to the land owner to say that I am a regular paying customer and that the poor signage is the only reason for what was an honest mistake in not paying. All the advice I've seen says don't identify the driver to the PPC, but in order to complain to the land owner I need to tell them what happened and can't see how to do this anonymously.


    So my question...Is it ok to reveal the details of who was driving to the land owner, (as I think it will make them more empathetic and likely to cancel the ticket)? Or is it imperitive to not give this info away?


    Many thanks
Page 1
    • Silvercloud18
    • By Silvercloud18 1st Apr 18, 10:03 PM
    • 41 Posts
    • 25 Thanks
    Silvercloud18
    • #2
    • 1st Apr 18, 10:03 PM
    • #2
    • 1st Apr 18, 10:03 PM
    i cant offer much help as i'm a newbie myself but i would suggest taking out that you were the driver from your post on here as i was advised these companies trawl the internet digging for dirt
    • Guys Dad
    • By Guys Dad 1st Apr 18, 10:25 PM
    • 10,400 Posts
    • 9,647 Thanks
    Guys Dad
    • #3
    • 1st Apr 18, 10:25 PM
    • #3
    • 1st Apr 18, 10:25 PM
    Private land is different from public land. Whereas on public roads, there are concessions for disabled people to park. However, the right to park for free in private car parks when able bodied people have to pay is a totally different matter. Landowners have the right to charge all drivers if they so desire. Even the NEC at Birmingham charge disabled drivers. Free parking on private land for BB holders is not an automatic default.

    If you look at the Blue Badge t&c as published by the government BB scheme

    11. Places you need to check before parking
    11.1 Off-street car parks (such as supermarket, hospital or local authority car parks)
    Off-street car park operators should provide parking spaces for disabled people. However, it is up to the car park owner to decide whether badge holders can park free of charge.


    See https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/the-blue-badge-scheme-rights-and-responsibilities-in-england/the-blue-badge-scheme-rights-and-responsibilities-in-england

    You and your friend didn't check as advised by the BB t&c, so the onus is on you to see if any concessions apply.

    I am not trying to be critical, but do take the above points into consideration when making your appeal to the landowner and PPC.
    Last edited by Guys Dad; 01-04-2018 at 10:31 PM.
    • driver_needing_help
    • By driver_needing_help 1st Apr 18, 10:25 PM
    • 7 Posts
    • 12 Thanks
    driver_needing_help
    • #4
    • 1st Apr 18, 10:25 PM
    • #4
    • 1st Apr 18, 10:25 PM
    i cant offer much help as i'm a newbie myself but i would suggest taking out that you were the driver from your post on here as i was advised these companies trawl the internet digging for dirt
    Originally posted by Silvercloud18

    Thanks Silvercloud, I don't think I've actually stated who was driving in my post...but this does prove quite how hard it is to tell the storey without mentioning it!
    • driver_needing_help
    • By driver_needing_help 1st Apr 18, 10:36 PM
    • 7 Posts
    • 12 Thanks
    driver_needing_help
    • #5
    • 1st Apr 18, 10:36 PM
    • #5
    • 1st Apr 18, 10:36 PM
    Private land is different from public land. Whereas on public roads, there are concessions for disabled people to park. However, the right to park for free in private car parks when able bodied people have to pay is a totally different matter. Landowners have the right to charge all drivers if they so desire. Even the NEC at Birmingham charge disabled drivers.

    If you look at the Blue Badge t&c as published by the government BB scheme

    11. Places you need to check before parking
    11.1 Off-street car parks (such as supermarket, hospital or local authority car parks)
    Off-street car park operators should provide parking spaces for disabled people. However, it is up to the car park owner to decide whether badge holders can park free of charge.
    Originally posted by Guys Dad

    Thanks Guys_Dad, I've done some reading up on the BB scheme since then and am now aware of this. My issue here is that there is a dedicated section on the signage for information relating to disabled people and the bit about there being 'no concessions for disabled' was elsewhere on the signage...therefore easy to miss when reading the sign.


    No one knowlingly did do anything wrong so we're keen to avoid a bill for nearly 100. If we'd known there was a charge parking, we would have gone elsewhere. Guys_Dad, it sounds like you think this is not worth fighting?
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 1st Apr 18, 10:38 PM
    • 6,713 Posts
    • 5,954 Thanks
    KeithP
    • #6
    • 1st Apr 18, 10:38 PM
    • #6
    • 1st Apr 18, 10:38 PM
    You just need to state that an occupant of the car is a blue badge holder.
    .
    • Guys Dad
    • By Guys Dad 1st Apr 18, 10:43 PM
    • 10,400 Posts
    • 9,647 Thanks
    Guys Dad
    • #7
    • 1st Apr 18, 10:43 PM
    • #7
    • 1st Apr 18, 10:43 PM
    Thanks Guys_Dad, I've done some reading up on the BB scheme since then and am now aware of this. My issue here is that there is a dedicated section on the signage for information relating to disabled people and the bit about there being 'no concessions for disabled' was elsewhere on the signage...therefore easy to miss when reading the sign.


    No one knowlingly did do anything wrong so we're keen to avoid a bill for nearly 100. If we'd known there was a charge parking, we would have gone elsewhere. Guys_Dad, it sounds like you think this is not worth fighting?
    Originally posted by driver_needing_help
    No. Appeal to the landowner but if any of the other advisers on here advise relying on the EA2010, then I think that would be sticky ground. There is provision for disabled drivers and any clued up brief would bring out the rules of the BB scheme as I just did. You need to consider the strategy required for the appeal letter.

    Certainly the PPC and landowner be made aware that the BB holder was in the car, but don't admit to who was driving. Hold off till you get the NtK or appeal at day 26 as per Coupon-Mad advice
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 2nd Apr 18, 11:22 AM
    • 36,573 Posts
    • 82,840 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    • #8
    • 2nd Apr 18, 11:22 AM
    • #8
    • 2nd Apr 18, 11:22 AM
    As above, appeal using the standard template from the NEWBIES thread. If/when it is rejected, appeal to PoPLA using all the relevant template points from post 3 of the NEWBIES.

    Again, I'm not sure why a BB user would think there wouldn't be a charge for parking if this was a P & D car park. Unless you found anything to the contrary you would assume you had to pay, especially as you say you are a regular customer.

    Do not reveal the driver's identity to anyone, not even the landowner. Only ever refer to The Driver and The Keeper, and a disabled occupant, who are three different people.
    Last edited by Fruitcake; 02-04-2018 at 11:25 AM.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • driver_needing_help
    • By driver_needing_help 2nd Apr 18, 11:56 AM
    • 7 Posts
    • 12 Thanks
    driver_needing_help
    • #9
    • 2nd Apr 18, 11:56 AM
    • #9
    • 2nd Apr 18, 11:56 AM
    Thanks Fruitcake, very clear guidance on the way to refer to the various parties involved.
    To answer your other points:
    - Frequent visitor but normally on foot, the car was only used due to the disabled person.
    - didn!!!8217;t think the P&D charges applied as this car park is listed on the council website, and council policy is to not charge. No one realised it was a private car park until after the event.

    Thanks
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 2nd Apr 18, 12:05 PM
    • 9,095 Posts
    • 8,809 Thanks
    The Deep
    I am not sure who is at fault here, you for not reading the signs, or the PPC for unclear signs, but complain to your MP anyway.

    This is an entirely unregulated industry which is scamming the public with inflated claims for minor breaches of contracts for alleged parking offences, aided and abetted by a handful of low-rent solicitors.

    Parking Eye, CPM, Smart, and another company have already been named and shamed, as has Gladstones Solicitors, and BW Legal, (these two law firms take hundreds of these cases to court each year). They lose most of them, and have been reported to the regulatory authority by an M.P. for unprofessional conduct

    Hospital car parks and residential complex tickets have been especially mentioned.

    The problem has become so rampant that MPs have agreed to enact a Bill to regulate these scammers. Watch the video of the Second Reading in the HofC recently.

    http://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/2f0384f2-eba5-4fff-ab07-cf24b6a22918?in=12:49:41

    and complain in the most robust terms to your MP. With a fair wind they will be out of business by Christmas.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • driver_needing_help
    • By driver_needing_help 2nd Apr 18, 12:48 PM
    • 7 Posts
    • 12 Thanks
    driver_needing_help
    Thanks The Deep,

    I agree that this is not a clear cut case and that whilst the signage is not as clear as it could be, it was there. I!!!8217;m trying to determine if it is worth just paying up if the complaint to the land owner and MP are unsuccessful?

    My understanding is that, for PPC to make a civil claim they need to demonstrate the driver willingly and knowingly entered into a contract. In this case, the driver did not do this as there was ample alternative parking nearby which was eligible for free parking with a BB (ie there is no motive to risk a ticket in the PPC).

    I doubt the PPC have any evidence of who the driver was, is this sufficient to fight the ticket as the registered keeper? Or if this went to court, is that argument likely to be thrown out?
    • Half_way
    • By Half_way 2nd Apr 18, 1:30 PM
    • 4,089 Posts
    • 5,794 Thanks
    Half_way
    Who is the landowner?
    before you complain to them, post your complaint here first
    From the Plain Language Commission:

    "The BPA has surely become one of the most socially dangerous organisations in the UK"
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 2nd Apr 18, 1:31 PM
    • 36,573 Posts
    • 82,840 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    The only way the PPC can find out who was driving is if you tell them.

    Complain as an occupant of the car to the landowner. You could even offer the parking fee if you wish.

    Complain to your MP, and to Sir Greg Knight MP.

    My advice would be to appeal as per the NEWBIES.

    You can name the driver at any point if you wish, although personally I never would.
    You can pay the PCN at any point, right up to the moment before a court appearance.

    Have a look at the BMPA motoring charity website to see how likely they are to do court. Again, personally I would fight this all the way, and MSE had a 99% success rate last year with posters who followed the advice given here.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • driver_needing_help
    • By driver_needing_help 13th Apr 18, 9:57 PM
    • 7 Posts
    • 12 Thanks
    driver_needing_help
    UPDATE !!!8212; SUCCESS!!

    Thanks everyone for the advice, I wrote a letter of complaint to the land owner who has now instructed Euro Car Parks to drop the ticket. They have also said they agree the signage is not very clear and will look at getting it changed.

    Here are the key points from my letter:
    - kept to using only !!!8216;the driver!!!8217;, !!!8216;the registered keep!!!8217; and !!!8216;the disabled person!!!8217;.
    - included photos of the blue badge and the signage (also included some exaples of good signage infound online).
    - mentioned that im a regular customer to the establishment.
    - offered to pay the original p&p charge of a few quid but they have not asked for this.

    Thanks again for the advice, it helped me keep my nerve and achieve a good result!
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 13th Apr 18, 10:01 PM
    • 17,350 Posts
    • 27,343 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    Well done, great result.

    Who is the landowner please? Could be very useful to someone who might also fall foul at this site (or other sites if a national landowner).
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • driver_needing_help
    • By driver_needing_help 13th Apr 18, 10:05 PM
    • 7 Posts
    • 12 Thanks
    driver_needing_help
    They are a developer called Umberslade.
    The car park is a disused bit of land which is waiting to be built on.
    • Ralph-y
    • By Ralph-y 13th Apr 18, 10:43 PM
    • 2,572 Posts
    • 3,201 Thanks
    Ralph-y
    well done ....

    can I please ask if you complained to your MP as advised by several forum members .... earlier .......

    if not then Please please ... do so as the next stage of the parliamentary debate will be on the horizon soon ... and every MP needs fed back from constituents on hoe to vote ....

    Ralph
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