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  • FIRST POST
    • ladaowner55
    • By ladaowner55 31st Mar 18, 4:06 PM
    • 52Posts
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    ladaowner55
    Can operate referance another case at POPPLA that happen later to initial offence
    • #1
    • 31st Mar 18, 4:06 PM
    Can operate referance another case at POPPLA that happen later to initial offence 31st Mar 18 at 4:06 PM
    basically my 72 year mother dropped off her grand child at my flat.

    Offence one as on the parking invoice
    Pakring for 2+ hours between 19:02 and 21:38

    When in fact this happened.

    19:02 she entered Dropped off child not parking

    19:05 she exited

    She was recored at Bingo Hall by a time stamps as bing on site between this time.

    21:35 she returned

    21:38 she exited Collected child no parking.

    Offence two not on initial parking invoice.
    Return within 2 hours
    From above
    21:38 exit

    2156 enter car parking
    2220 exit
    A parking invoice was issued via the mail stating between 19:02 and 21:38 she parked for 2 hours along with a secure web URL to ANPR photos, there is no mention of the second offence (no return within 2 hours) on the initial parking invoice. The first offence is clearly a case of double dipping. So I sent the operator NSGL this

    I agree that my car entered the docks at 19:02:28 however I also left the docks at 19:04:28 because I dropped off my daughters child with her uncle. At 21:38:08 I returned to pick up my daughters child so my car could not have been parked for 2 hours at Mariners Square. I have a signed letter from the manager of Gala Bingo where it can be seen that I signed into the bingo hall at 19:14 and would have been there until 21:30. My car was parked in their car park which is a free of charge car park. I have 4 people willing to sign statements to this affect. The witnesses are our my daughter and neighbour who were in the car, my son (the uncle), the Gala bingo manager. There is also CCTV in the bingo park car which must have recorded my car however so far I have not contacted the car park to obtain this CCTV footage but I am willing to should this reach court.

    This is know in the parking trade as Double Dip Parking and is a known fault of the ANPR systems, up to 1 in 10 cases are wrongly captured via this method. There have been numerous cases where this has happened and the British Parking Association in their own hand book have told car park operators to double check their ANPR transactions to ensure this error does not occur. I have attached a copy of said handbook so that you can see.

    This is new technology: Is it working perfectly?

    Repeat users of a car park in a 24 hour period sometimes find that their first entry is paired with their last exit, resulting in an overstay. Operators are aware of this and are now checking all ANPR transactions to ensure that this does not occur.
    The following list of links are cases where ANPR system have failed to capture images correctly and case have been squashed.

    The infamous "Mr. Owens" case on claiming for misuse of personal information under DPA - http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2015/10/parkingeye-subject-to-data-protection.html

    A double-dip case with PE and Morrisons (from the BMPA) - https://bmpa.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/206377599-ParkingEye-V-Mr-O-Double-Dip-at-Morrisons

    G24 double-dip on OAPs picking up prescriptions - http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5549537

    I am a 72 year old lady in her retirement years and I find this very distressing that NSGL are not looking at the evidence and only the money that they can gained by frightening an elderly lady . They insist that I must have parked my car in the docks and that I walked from there to the bing hall. It is not possible for a 72 years elderly lady to park her car and then walk across the docks to the Bingo within 11 minutes. Why would I do that when there is a free park car next to the bing hall with plenty of spaces. The only logical answer is that I have been incorrectly identified by the NSGL's ARPN camera.
    Along with letters from 3 witness who said it was a double dip.

    In the appeal the operator said nothing about the above offence but started to say about returning with 2 hours, see below.
    The area in which you parked is an area of open Public space and parking is not permitted. A
    concession is allowed for residents to park for 30 minutes to load and unload. Once parked for any
    period of the 30 minutes the vehicle is not permitted to return within 2 hours. Clear signage is at the
    entrance to the area explaining the restrictions and that the area is monitored by ANPR cameras.
    Your vehicle entered at 1902 and left at 2138 a stay of 2 hours and 35 minutes, having entered and left
    it is not permitted to return within two hours. Your vehicle left at 2138 and returned at 2156, leaving
    again at 2220. The initial entry and final exit are stated on the PCN. Photos of both periods are
    attached.
    My question the initial parking invoice letter makes no mention of the seconds offence happening at 21:38 return within 2 hours. Can he bring this up at poppla and do I need to make a defence for that as well?

    Surley he needs to send me a second parking invoice and for the second offence? Which was to return within 2 hours and then park for 4 minutes?

    Also this land is owned by the council but leased to a management company who in turn use NSGL to police it. I thought councils had been banned for using ANPR systems.[/I]
    Last edited by ladaowner55; 31-03-2018 at 5:23 PM.
Page 1
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 31st Mar 18, 9:40 PM
    • 61,677 Posts
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    Coupon-mad
    • #2
    • 31st Mar 18, 9:40 PM
    • #2
    • 31st Mar 18, 9:40 PM
    http://www.nsglparking.co.uk/

    They are BPA, so it's POPLA time as long as she hasn't sat on the rejection letter for a month.

    She must have a POPLA code there, so read post #3 of the NEWBIES thread and show us the draft POPLA appeal based on the usual stuff. She will need to appeal as driver because she already admitted that (ouch!) in that appeal. So she can use the other usual templates but not the POFA one.

    She will also need to upload as evidence, the WS from all the people saying she drove that car to the Bingo Hall.

    So they are saying:

    and left at 2138
    but she is saying:

    At 21:38:08 I returned to pick up my daughters child
    I'd be looking VERY closely at that image. Background? Altered photo?

    Is it the front or back of her car, and does that match the 'entry' image at 19:02? Or does it match the image of the car finally leaving at 2220?

    What seems to be going on? Presumably, IMHO, a pitch black ANPR image of her returning, has been (allegedly) passed off as a pitch back ANPR image of her driving out.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • IamEmanresu
    • By IamEmanresu 1st Apr 18, 6:44 AM
    • 3,295 Posts
    • 5,551 Thanks
    IamEmanresu
    • #3
    • 1st Apr 18, 6:44 AM
    • #3
    • 1st Apr 18, 6:44 AM
    It wasn't loading/unloading. There was a human involved so it was boarding/alighting.

    Good one to get to court if NSGL want to go there - a variation of Jopson
    If you want to win - avoid losing first. Here are a few examples
    1. Failing to Acknowledge or Defend https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5760415
    2. Template defences that say nothing https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5818671&page=5#86
    3. Forgetting about the Witness Statement
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 1st Apr 18, 9:36 AM
    • 10,010 Posts
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    The Deep
    • #4
    • 1st Apr 18, 9:36 AM
    • #4
    • 1st Apr 18, 9:36 AM
    This is an entirely unregulated industry which is scamming the public with inflated claims for minor breaches of contracts for alleged parking offences, aided and abetted by a handful of low-rent solicitors.

    Parking Eye, CPM, Smart, and another company have already been named and shamed, as has Gladstones Solicitors, and BW Legal, (these two law firms take hundreds of these cases to court each year). They lose most of them, and have been reported to the regulatory authority by an M.P. for unprofessional conduct

    Hospital car parks and residential complex tickets have been especially mentioned.

    The problem has become so rampant that MPs have agreed to enact a Bill to regulate these scammers. Watch the video of the Second Reading in the HofC recently.

    http://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/2f0384f2-eba5-4fff-ab07-cf24b6a22918?in=12:49:41

    and complain in the most robust terms to your MP. With a fair wind they will be out of business by Christmas.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 1st Apr 18, 9:39 AM
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    The Deep
    • #5
    • 1st Apr 18, 9:39 AM
    • #5
    • 1st Apr 18, 9:39 AM

    She will also need to upload as evidence, the WS from all the people saying she drove that car to the Bingo Hall.


    But surely CM it is up to the PPC to prove that she breached the contract, not for her to prove that she did not.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • ladaowner55
    • By ladaowner55 1st Apr 18, 11:43 AM
    • 52 Posts
    • 23 Thanks
    ladaowner55
    • #6
    • 1st Apr 18, 11:43 AM
    • #6
    • 1st Apr 18, 11:43 AM
    Hi guys thanks for the useful help, I am more than happy to defend the initial offence but it appears that I have not been clear where I need help .

    Can the operate in his defence bring up offence number 2 no return within 2 hours even though this is not listed on the original PCN (AKA parking invoice).

    I am more than happy to submit defence 1 but do I need to mention defence 2, can say this

    Offence 1 is all that is written on the original PCN so I am only defending this. The operator is not allowed to mention the offence occurring at the later stage because it that is not on the original PCN?

    For what is it is worth I do not believe the photos have been doctored but it it very hard to tell given the very low quality photos.

    Pictures removed as told by someone on this forum.
    Last edited by ladaowner55; 03-09-2018 at 10:30 AM.
    • ladaowner55
    • By ladaowner55 1st Apr 18, 11:52 AM
    • 52 Posts
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    ladaowner55
    • #7
    • 1st Apr 18, 11:52 AM
    • #7
    • 1st Apr 18, 11:52 AM
    This joker has tried to invoice me (aka the son) on 3 separate times and lost all 3. So I am fairly happy with what to write in my mums defence.

    One where he sent me the personal details of a totally different car/owner and never reported this to the ICO as data lost.

    One where he claimed the photo evidence was taken by his parking officer but was taken by a neighbour on his iPhone which had no time stamp.

    And last one he only had a single sign up with the wrong font, wrong size, in the wrong location and with no light.
    I feel this operator is harassing me and my family as I now see him park in direct view of my car at least twice a day, sometimes sitting in his car doing what appears to be waiting just for me

    I did write to the land owner which is the council and he just fudged me off.
    Last edited by ladaowner55; 01-04-2018 at 12:00 PM.
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 1st Apr 18, 11:59 AM
    • 37,402 Posts
    • 84,288 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    • #8
    • 1st Apr 18, 11:59 AM
    • #8
    • 1st Apr 18, 11:59 AM
    Do you have your own pictures of this person, just to ensure they are not breaching parking regulations, and ensuring they are dressed in full parking company uniform as per the BPA CoP?

    There would be no harm in checking this for example, twice per day.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 1st Apr 18, 12:15 PM
    • 37,402 Posts
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    Fruitcake
    • #9
    • 1st Apr 18, 12:15 PM
    • #9
    • 1st Apr 18, 12:15 PM
    As for mentioning a separate incident for which no PCN/NTK has been issued, did the scammers provide the photos of this alleged event in the original PCN/NTK?

    If not, I would say that anything after 21.38 is irrelevant and fails to address anything to do with the original PCN which was for an alleged overstay. There was no mention of a No Return within 2 hours on the original PCN, so anything else must be discarded, and the PoPLA assessor must be told to only concern themselves with the case detailed in the PCN originally issued.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • nigelbb
    • By nigelbb 1st Apr 18, 3:49 PM
    • 2,025 Posts
    • 2,818 Thanks
    nigelbb
    This joker has tried to invoice me (aka the son) on 3 separate times and lost all 3. So I am fairly happy with what to write in my mums defence.


    I feel this operator is harassing me and my family as I now see him park in direct view of my car at least twice a day, sometimes sitting in his car doing what appears to be waiting just for me

    I did write to the land owner which is the council and he just fudged me off.
    Originally posted by ladaowner55
    Tell us more. What relationship does the PPC have to the council? If the landowner is the council then this is not relevant land for the purposes of POFA so keeper liability cannot apply.
    • ladaowner55
    • By ladaowner55 1st Apr 18, 8:53 PM
    • 52 Posts
    • 23 Thanks
    ladaowner55
    Tell us more. What relationship does the PPC have to the council? If the landowner is the council then this is not relevant land for the purposes of POFA so keeper liability cannot apply.
    Originally posted by nigelbb
    Trouble with this route would be that I have already told the parking operater that my mother was the driver.

    The land is owned but then the council then sub-leased too a property management company called ASH and Co who use NSGL to police it. I wrote to the council who just forwarded my letter onto the management company who gave a short unhelpful reply.


    Any chance you can show me the law or ruling where POFA can not be used for council land. I want to throw this at the council.
    Last edited by ladaowner55; 01-04-2018 at 10:57 PM.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 3rd Apr 18, 12:41 AM
    • 61,677 Posts
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    Coupon-mad
    Neither ANPR cameras, nor contract law (never mind the POFA, that's out the window as the driver has been blabbed!) are allowed to be used to enforce car parks that are under Council control:

    http://legalbeagles.info/forums/forum/legal-forums/motoring-parking/51949-government-proposes-ban-on-use-of-cctv-and-anpr-in-civil-parking-enforcement?50822-Government-Proposes-Ban-on-Use-of-CCTV-and-ANPR-in-Civil-Parking-Enforcement=

    http://notomob.co.uk/discussions/index.php?topic=4719.0

    http://notomob.co.uk/discussions/index.php?topic=4512.0


    For what is it is worth I do not believe the photos have been doctored but it it very hard to tell given the very low quality photos.
    Errrm, errrm, how come all the numberplate images are of the front numberplate?

    Same GB icon, same bolts in the same places, same shadowing, same black line under the numbers/letters, all white (no yellow one)?

    Go and take photos of what the front & back numberplates REALLY look like! They will not have the bolts in the same place and a black line running along the bottom.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 03-04-2018 at 12:44 AM.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • ladaowner55
    • By ladaowner55 10th Apr 18, 8:11 PM
    • 52 Posts
    • 23 Thanks
    ladaowner55
    here is roughly what I pout in the popla.

    The original parking invoice PCN (see attached) makes reference to a single parking offence Exceeding permitted waiting times (ANPR) between 19:02 & 21:38 therefore the parking operator is only allowed to discuss this offence & no other times, dates or any offences should be referenced. These would need separate invoices which have not issued

    This is a single parking offence where the parking operator states we parked for 2:35 hours however. The real facts are

    * At the time of offence I was a resident at address doing loading/unloading
    * I entered the car park at 19:02 &left at 19:04
    * Between 19:14 &21:30 I was at the Gala bingo hall, see the attached evidence from the Gala Bingo hall manager &3 independent witnesses
    * I returned at 21:36 &left at 2138 more than 2 hours later

    This is know as Double Dip and is a fault of ANPR systems. The British Parking Association in their own hand book have told car park operators to double check their ANPR transactions to ensure ANPR errors dont occur.

    I believe that NSGL might try &insist that I parked my car in the docks & then walked from there to the bing hall. It is not possible for a 72 years elderly lady to park her car ion the docks & then walk to the Bingo within 11 minutes, why would I when there is a free park car next to the bing hall. Given The evidence the logical answer is that I have been incorrectly identified by the ARPN camera.

    The main sign at the site has no light & because the offence was at night time it was impossible to read the signage

    Also note that one of the signs at the location was vandalised at the time of the offence & is confusing & unreadable

    * Both BPA logos have been covered by stickers
    * The ARPN log is also covered by a 2nd sticker

    So please throw this out on any of these points

    * Double dip parking
    * No light on the main sign could not read the sign
    * Vandalised signs
    Bing hall manager letter.
    3 witness statements.
    photos of both signs attached.

    Were attached to the popla.
    Last edited by ladaowner55; 01-05-2018 at 10:21 PM.
    • ladaowner55
    • By ladaowner55 10th Apr 18, 8:13 PM
    • 52 Posts
    • 23 Thanks
    ladaowner55
    Also can I give a big huge thanks to all the unsung heroes on this web site who help the common man defeat scum bags like these.
    • ladaowner55
    • By ladaowner55 10th Apr 18, 8:22 PM
    • 52 Posts
    • 23 Thanks
    ladaowner55
    Neither ANPR cameras, nor contract law (never mind the POFA, that's out the window as the driver has been blabbed!) are allowed to be used to enforce car parks that are under Council control:

    http://legalbeagles.info/forums/forum/legal-forums/motoring-parking/51949-government-proposes-ban-on-use-of-cctv-and-anpr-in-civil-parking-enforcement?50822-Government-Proposes-Ban-on-Use-of-CCTV-and-ANPR-in-Civil-Parking-Enforcement=

    http://notomob.co.uk/discussions/index.php?topic=4719.0

    http://notomob.co.uk/discussions/index.php?topic=4512.0

    Errrm, errrm, how come all the numberplate images are of the front numberplate?

    Same GB icon, same bolts in the same places, same shadowing, same black line under the numbers/letters, all white (no yellow one)?

    Go and take photos of what the front & back numberplates REALLY look like! They will not have the bolts in the same place and a black line running along the bottom.
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad

    Tomorrow the council are going to get ear full of this? I writing too them explaining that they cannot and should not be using a ARPN on council owned land.
    Last edited by ladaowner55; 10-04-2018 at 8:31 PM.
    • ladaowner55
    • By ladaowner55 10th Apr 18, 8:28 PM
    • 52 Posts
    • 23 Thanks
    ladaowner55
    I got 3 juice complains about NSGL

    2014 NSGL released personal information of other drive and basic said so what.

    2015 Popla identified they had incorrect signs on site and NSGL never changed them until I made a Youtube video about this, then he soon changed the signs. Did he refund all the previous parking invoices as they were illegally enforced? No he never.

    2016 He is using APRN system on council land.

    This man is nothing but a crook.
    • ladaowner55
    • By ladaowner55 10th Apr 18, 8:30 PM
    • 52 Posts
    • 23 Thanks
    ladaowner55
    wish I had noticed this before writing to popla, its very strange indeed and it just adds to the double dip case.

    Errrm, errrm, how come all the numberplate images are of the front numberplate?
    Last edited by ladaowner55; 10-04-2018 at 8:36 PM.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 11th Apr 18, 1:34 AM
    • 61,677 Posts
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    Coupon-mad
    OMG that was the main point I was making for you! IT WAS REALLY OBVIOUS! And your POPLA appeal is nothing like the ones on this forum.

    You will have to point out the numberplate thing at 'comments' stage. DO NOT MISS IT.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • ladaowner55
    • By ladaowner55 1st May 18, 10:57 PM
    • 52 Posts
    • 23 Thanks
    ladaowner55


    Taken from BPA guide lines. Does the photo cover this? Yes/no will do.

    21.1) You may use ANPR camera technology to manage, control and enforce parking in private car parks, as long as you do this in a reasonable, consistent and transparent manner. Your signs at the car park must tell drivers that you are using this technology and what you will use the data captured by ANPR cameras for.
    The last sentence is the key one: you must state that you are using ANPR and what you will use the data for. Very frequently signs in private car parks might say "car park monitored by ANPR systems", which satisfies the first part, but it does not explicitly state what for. This point has been known to be the basis of upheld appeals at POPLA, so should be cited. If examples of the actual signage are provided, this will clearly strengthen your appeal.

    I think picture has it kind of covered by not 100% there is a logo for ARPN and wording stating area monitored by ARPN and some wording says we will apply for your address from DVLA and send you a parking invoice but it is not clear than ANPR will be used to capture your number plate and used to get address for DVLA.
    Last edited by ladaowner55; 01-05-2018 at 11:04 PM.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 2nd May 18, 12:48 AM
    • 61,677 Posts
    • 74,578 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    I think picture has it kind of covered but not 100%
    I think POPLA might decide that point about ANPR use is covered/clear enough. I think you should look at other things to raise for POPLA to chew on, not that.

    If you have the POPLA evidence pack, you need to add comments and NOW you must raise the fact that all the numberplate images are of the front numberplate only, which supports your consistent appeal point that this was a double visit.

    Also, I spotted something about the sign, you MUST say this to POPLA in your comments too!

    It says 'RESIDENTS ONLY NO RETURN WITHIN 2 HOURS'.

    However, the appellant is NOT a resident. She was a visitor, dropping off her grandchild at a relative's flat. That 'no return' term does not concern her, a visitor, and she cannot be bound by it. The sign is badly drafted but that is not her concern, and under the doctrine of contra proferentem, any term which is ambiguous MUST be interpreted by POPLA or a court, in the way that most favours a consumer.

    Also that sign does not look lit and the car was there at night in the pitch black. If the PPC has not provided any photos in the dark, point that out to POPLA, that effectively they have provided no evidence that the terms were readable at night in hours of darkness.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 03-05-2018 at 1:25 AM.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
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