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  • FIRST POST
    • G-Man10
    • By G-Man10 28th Mar 18, 12:33 PM
    • 19Posts
    • 16Thanks
    G-Man10
    Indigo/Train Station - Penalty Notice
    • #1
    • 28th Mar 18, 12:33 PM
    Indigo/Train Station - Penalty Notice 28th Mar 18 at 12:33 PM
    Hi all,

    I've read the newbie thread and I know it states that Indigo do not request driver information from the DVLA. I don't know if this is trustworthy because I've seen other threads in recent months stating they do.

    Driver pulled into the train station car park. Priority Parking was on the right and there was a space a bit further up on the left hand side. Driver pulled in and parked. Train journey completed. Driver paid, they offer a park and go service so you can pay once you return to the car.

    Driver returns to car, and guess what, yep, you guessed it, an Indigo Penalty Notice on windscreen. I think what they are trying to get driver on is parking in a premier parking section. Previously, you could always pay for premier parking on the day anyway (recently changed parking operator) but it was never enforced and actually just treated as part of the car-park with faded floor markings etc. The signage is extremely poor. The bay has a number, but there is nothing to suggest that side/section is premier parking. The opposite side yes, a bit before yes, but it's unclear that where the car was parked requires a permit or anything "premier". This will be double checked for signs, markings on floor in a few days.

    Breach Code: 02- Failing to fully display a valid permit
    A payment of £100 is due within 28 days or £60 within 14 days

    What's the best course of action here? Do I wait as per the Indigo Railway PCN thread? Obviously driver paid, their signage is not clear. What do I do? There's one thing that I don't want to do though and that's end up paying more in the long term or be stressed out from debt collectors etc!

    Any guidance would be great.

    Thanks!
    Last edited by G-Man10; 30-03-2018 at 7:05 PM.
Page 2
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 30th Mar 18, 2:51 PM
    • 3,093 Posts
    • 3,798 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    The entire idea for railway tickets is to get to 6 months. So you obviously wait as long as possible at every stage.
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 30th Mar 18, 4:40 PM
    • 37,191 Posts
    • 83,909 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    Edited!

    I'll be careful with my appeal as well to use the correct terminology. Thanks.
    Originally posted by G-Man10
    No you haven't?

    The Driver pulled in ...
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • ampersand
    • By ampersand 30th Mar 18, 6:22 PM
    • 8,446 Posts
    • 32,885 Thanks
    ampersand
    op - as others are telling you, completely edit #1.

    Quoting giveaways re: a driver merely repeats them, so change 7 instances of this in #1.
    Happy Easter homework :-)
    CAP[UK]for FREE EXPERT DEBT&BUDGET HELP:01274 760720, freephone0800 328 0006
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    • G-Man10
    • By G-Man10 30th Mar 18, 9:19 PM
    • 19 Posts
    • 16 Thanks
    G-Man10
    The entire idea for railway tickets is to get to 6 months. So you obviously wait as long as possible at every stage.
    Originally posted by nosferatu1001
    Thanks. And sorry for keeping the thread dragging without even receiving an NTK yet but can anyone tell me what would, if anything, prevent someone from getting six months?

    There's a lot of mentions about getting to six months, but what would be a realistic worse case scenario within 6 months? Apart from some hassle and a load of letters, it seems like they won't/can't take you to court...but you can't just ignore the letters, you have to play the game by pretending your are co-operating. Maybe for the debt ones if they come I'll just return them unopened as "not at this address" written on them.
    • Handbags-at-dawn
    • By Handbags-at-dawn 30th Mar 18, 10:14 PM
    • 140 Posts
    • 288 Thanks
    Handbags-at-dawn
    Realistic worst case scenario? That you get rattled by their bullying tactics and take the easy way out and pay. Thereby helping to perpetuate the scam!
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 30th Mar 18, 10:40 PM
    • 60,064 Posts
    • 73,185 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    what would be a realistic worse case scenario within 6 months?
    Nothing at all. Won't happen.

    If a TOC issued a real penalty, THEY could lay it before Magistrates within 6 months. And Northern Rail (I think) do it like that.

    But the same thing is just is not possible with Indigo.

    Not only that, I suspect the PCN promised POPLA(?) so you can waste loads of time ranting that POPLA has not been made available, asking why not again and again (even though you know POPLA won't be offered now) and copying in Trading Standards and your MP, who will NOT know why POPLA is being denied and will agree with you, that no ADR is unlawful, unfair trading, etc.

    For now I would wait, because waiting for the NTK before appealing wastes more time.

    Just do NOT name the driver when you do appeal, be careful of the online appeal boxes that ask for who was driving. You can put in there: 'none of your business, a registered keeper does not have to name a driver' or similar.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 31st Mar 18, 12:04 AM
    • 3,093 Posts
    • 3,798 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    Indigo could take you to court. They won!!!8217;t do it

    They can threaten to clamp, but again won!!!8217;t do it because they know it would be unlawful and leave them open to huge damages
    • CMS257
    • By CMS257 4th Apr 18, 9:03 PM
    • 6 Posts
    • 5 Thanks
    CMS257
    How do I start a new thread? Sorry I am new to this, I am in the Indigo rails car park bylaw situation and want to share my response from ZZPS without hijacking. Thanks
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 4th Apr 18, 9:05 PM
    • 60,064 Posts
    • 73,185 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    See my signature, hop back to the main thread list, one click away. NEW THREAD button is there (not viewing on a phone!).
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • G-Man10
    • By G-Man10 5th Apr 18, 8:05 PM
    • 19 Posts
    • 16 Thanks
    G-Man10
    So I was just passing the station so I thought I'd pop in and take a look at the Premier Parking section and the markings.

    Well, well, well. The first section of Premier Parking is clearly marked out using bright yellow newish paint. The section where the car and and the driver parked without any knowledge of it being Premier Parking or requiring a permit is virtually unreadable. The photos don't actually do it justice in regards to just how faded the markings are. One could only assume that this section isn't actually Premier Parking, and every single car there didn't have a permit, so just my luck the lovely ticket man stuck one on my bright expensive car!

    There was no signage as you pull into the station apart from one large sign saying something along the lines of "This station has APNR for number plate recognition" or something along those lines. There is a bylaws sign well into the station...deep down towards the bottom of the car park but you have no reason to even go in that direction because the station is in the opposite direction and you pay cashless inside the station. There is no information about the Premier Parking or whether you can pay extra on the day for it like before Ingido took over.

    I'll include these as part of my appeal, but what nonsense this really is to receive a ticket for parking in a space that "requires a permit" with non existent markings and lines and no information about it. I tried to upload the images but it says I can't as a new poster, however you get the idea. One Bylaws sign nowhere near the station entrance or car park entrance in a direction you'd never walk in, one section with bright painted markings and a further section with markings which are just ridiculous and you can barely make out the writing.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 5th Apr 18, 8:16 PM
    • 18,831 Posts
    • 23,825 Thanks
    Redx
    host your images on tinypic and then add the URL in your reply , changing http to hxxp if it does not like the link
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • G-Man10
    • By G-Man10 6th Apr 18, 1:12 AM
    • 19 Posts
    • 16 Thanks
    G-Man10
    Image links below. First one is Bylaws sign off the beaten track. Second one is Premier Parking section where the markings are what you would consider normal. Third and Fourth are the joke markings that are most likely illegal or not enforceable. I wonder if the ticket monster photographed the car when parked if it shows where exactly it was parked but I'd guess if no photos show this or they show it's in the faded section, it would surely be a successful appeal with the below evidence of the shody markings!

    hxxp://imgur.com/a/JvrdS

    hxxp://imgur.com/a/f8ofd

    hxxp://imgur.com/a/4Jj9m

    hxxp://imgur.com/a/p3UEV
    Last edited by G-Man10; 06-04-2018 at 1:30 AM.
    • Handbags-at-dawn
    • By Handbags-at-dawn 6th Apr 18, 3:57 AM
    • 140 Posts
    • 288 Thanks
    Handbags-at-dawn
    http://imgur.com/a/JvrdS

    http://imgur.com/a/f8ofd

    http://imgur.com/a/4Jj9m

    http://imgur.com/a/p3UEV
    • G-Man10
    • By G-Man10 6th Apr 18, 12:22 PM
    • 19 Posts
    • 16 Thanks
    G-Man10
    Thanks. Images of faded markings are above...
    • Castle
    • By Castle 6th Apr 18, 12:30 PM
    • 1,866 Posts
    • 2,532 Thanks
    Castle
    Failure to pay a penalty notice is not an offence under section 24(1). You should report this to TS.
    • Handbags-at-dawn
    • By Handbags-at-dawn 6th Apr 18, 1:51 PM
    • 140 Posts
    • 288 Thanks
    Handbags-at-dawn
    Failure to pay a penalty notice is not an offence under section 24(1)..
    Originally posted by Castle
    Absolutely. It's a blatant, outrageous misrepresentation.

    TOCs rely on Byelaw 14 (4)(1) which says (meaninglessly) that an owner "may be liable for a penalty as displayed in the area". They deliberately mis-interpret this to mean that an owner's refusal to pay such a penalty is a breach of the byelaw, and is therefore an offence. This is nonsense. The byelaw merely describes a possible state of affairs. It is not possible to breach a state of affairs.

    This is confirmed in this FOIR: https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/statistics_for_prosecutions_of_r?nocache=incoming-1125123#incoming-1125123
    where the Ministry of Justice says: "Please note 14(4)(i) is not itself an offence but simply stipulates the penalty for any of these three offences."

    In any event, the "penalty" cannot possibly be enforceable. No-one but the Court can impose a penalty for breach of the byelaws. And even if a mere TOC were given the power to do so, it couldn't until the alleged offence had been proved before an independent tribunal. Innocent until proven guilty: that's the law of the land,

    Few people would believe that a major service-providing company could tell such big fat lies. I guess that's how they get away with it.
    • G-Man10
    • By G-Man10 16th May 18, 6:58 PM
    • 19 Posts
    • 16 Thanks
    G-Man10
    Windscreen notice towards end of March, still nothing through the post yet....that 6 months clock is slowing ticking away.
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 16th May 18, 7:18 PM
    • 8,637 Posts
    • 8,545 Thanks
    KeithP
    Have you reported them to Trading Standards as Castle suggested in post #35?
    .
    • G-Man10
    • By G-Man10 17th May 18, 1:54 PM
    • 19 Posts
    • 16 Thanks
    G-Man10
    Yes I did all that was advised such as complaining to trading standards etc.

    I decided to appeal in the post just before the 28 days to play ball because I felt that we had a strong case as per the very worn barely visible markings. How they can justify a ticket for being in a "premier parking" area that has invisible worn markings when the driver has paid for parking already is beyond belief. The appeal was sent with all evidence including worn marking photos etc but no address or contact number because they can work for that if they want it. Since revisiting station I believe the lines have now been redone. Unbelievable. Can still view the PCN details and appeal via the website and it's been showing as received since the appeal was sent. Logged in today, and guess what, yep, rejected...but it allowed me to submit a new appeal strangely so just re did the appeal with the same info and no contact information.

    Let the fun and games begin.
    Last edited by G-Man10; 17-05-2018 at 2:04 PM.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 18th May 18, 1:38 AM
    • 60,064 Posts
    • 73,185 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Don't forget the SAR after 25th May, as we will encourage everyone to start doing to every PPC that issues a PCN/LBC/debt letter. It's free. See other threads, no time to repeat it all.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

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