Your browser isn't supported
It looks like you're using an old web browser. To get the most out of the site and to ensure guides display correctly, we suggest upgrading your browser now. Download the latest:

Welcome to the MSE Forums

We're home to a fantastic community of MoneySavers but anyone can post. Please exercise caution & report spam, illegal, offensive or libellous posts/messages: click "report" or email forumteam@.

Search
  • FIRST POST
    • Footslog
    • By Footslog 23rd Mar 18, 6:48 PM
    • 10Posts
    • 0Thanks
    Footslog
    Tax refund too big!
    • #1
    • 23rd Mar 18, 6:48 PM
    Tax refund too big! 23rd Mar 18 at 6:48 PM
    I was made redundant in Nov 2015. In the tax year 2016/17, I received two payments from my ex-employer for some deferred redundancy in April (about 9000) and for some shares in August (about 6000).
    My ex-employer switched payroll firms during that year, so the 9000 in April was reported to HMRC (using their Real Time Information system) by payroll firm 1, and in August the 2nd firm reported 9000+6000 as a cumulative payment, also using RTI.
    Now HMRC say I'm due a tax refund on the total of 9000+9000+6000. I have phoned and written to them pointing out the error, and my ex-employer has also phoned them twice and given them the correct total. But HMRC are adamant the only way to correct this is for one of the payroll firms to reverse out one of the 9000 figures on RTI. But both firms insist they are duty-bound to report the figures they did, and my ex-employer supports that view.
    I have no P60 or P45 for the tax year as I was not an employee.
    I declined both HMRC's online refund and the cheque they subsequently sent me for the wrong refund amount (which has now expired).
    I am trying to 'do the right thing' and getting nowhere. I would like my - much smaller - tax refund, but at the moment, it seems like I won't get anything at all.
    Can anyone suggest a way out of this stand-off?
Page 1
    • Dazed and confused
    • By Dazed and confused 23rd Mar 18, 7:25 PM
    • 2,479 Posts
    • 1,185 Thanks
    Dazed and confused
    • #2
    • 23rd Mar 18, 7:25 PM
    • #2
    • 23rd Mar 18, 7:25 PM
    Have you received a calculation (P800?) and if so what entries does this have for your income from your old company?
    • Footslog
    • By Footslog 23rd Mar 18, 7:40 PM
    • 10 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Footslog
    • #3
    • 23rd Mar 18, 7:40 PM
    • #3
    • 23rd Mar 18, 7:40 PM
    Hi Dazed and Confused,
    My P800 shows two lines from my old company like this:

    Income Income Tax
    <My company's name> 9360.00 3210.66
    <My company's name> 15669.17 5200.92
    <Pension authority> 1600.00 R 3210.66

    So I have already received a refund on the first payment via my small pension.
    • xylophone
    • By xylophone 23rd Mar 18, 9:46 PM
    • 25,187 Posts
    • 14,834 Thanks
    xylophone
    • #4
    • 23rd Mar 18, 9:46 PM
    • #4
    • 23rd Mar 18, 9:46 PM
    But HMRC are adamant the only way to correct this is for one of the payroll firms to reverse out one of the 9000 figures on RTI.
    Then it is for HMRC to tell whichever payroll firm they think is in error to do just that?

    I'd suggest writing to your MP.
    • dori2o
    • By dori2o 24th Mar 18, 9:47 AM
    • 7,581 Posts
    • 12,674 Thanks
    dori2o
    • #5
    • 24th Mar 18, 9:47 AM
    • #5
    • 24th Mar 18, 9:47 AM
    ]Then it is for HMRC to tell whichever payroll firm they think is in error to do just that?[/B]

    I'd suggest writing to your MP.
    by xylophone;74066702[B
    No it isnt.

    Whilst the employer may use a payroll provider it is the employer who is ultimately responsible for the data submitted to HMRC.

    Just as if you or I use an accountant to submit a tax return, it is you or I that are responsible for the information on the return.

    Without having looked at the information myself I would suggest that the reason for this is either.

    1) the employers paye reference number has changed during the tax year (can the OP confirm this. The number may be shown on the calculation. Its in the format 123/A12345).

    If this is the case, despite the employee (OP) seeing no difference in their employment the HMRC system treats this as 2 seperate employments.

    Therefore if this is whats happened then payroll 2 DO NOT need to include the first payment in their 'In this employment Year To Date' figures.

    2) the PAYE reference has remained the same but the employee/payroll number has changed. This again would mean that the HMRC system treats this as 2 seperate employments. It has to do this as many people have more than 1 employment under different terms/conditions with the same employer, i. e, NHS staff who have their ordinary emoyment contract plus a bank shift contract.

    Again payroll 2 would need to adjust the 'Year to Date' figures to represent ONLY what was paid under that particular payroll number

    3) A P45 was issued after the first payment.

    Therefore 'This employment' has ended and if any further payment is issued its classed as a 'new employment' even if its from the same company. Therefore each single period of employment should be treated seperately and the 'Year to Date' figures should represent only what was paid in those separate periods.

    Can OP confirm if any of the above apply?


    OP in cases where RTI information is incorrect and a Earlier Year Update (EYU) is required HMRC can provide you with a letter to give to the employer which gives instructions on how the details should be submitted and how the EYU should be made. Have you received this? Have you given it to the employer?

    Alternatively, if you have spoken to the employer and they are refusing to deal with it write to HMRC and state that you are making a claim for Employer Error as they have submitted incorrect RTI information which is affecting your end of year tax calculation.
    To equate judgement and wisdom with occupation is at best . . . insulting.
    • Footslog
    • By Footslog 24th Mar 18, 1:57 PM
    • 10 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Footslog
    • #6
    • 24th Mar 18, 1:57 PM
    • #6
    • 24th Mar 18, 1:57 PM
    Dori2o,

    Many thanks for your response. To reply to your questions:

    1. I haven't got any document with the employer's paye reference on it, so unfortunately I can't answer that.
    2. The employee number is the same on each of the two payslips I received (one from each payroll).
    3. I have no P45 or P60 for 2016/17.

    I've received nothing from HMRC to give to my ex-employer regarding the Earlier Year Update. The only documents I have received are two identical P800s, a tax summary, and a refund cheque for the wrong amount.

    My ex-employers were quite helpful to start with, but their attitude now is to say they have done what is necessary, and it's up to HMRC to sort it out.

    ...write to HMRC and state that you are making a claim for Employer Error as they have submitted incorrect RTI information which is affecting your end of year tax calculation.
    This sounds like a good way of proceeding. Other than quoting Employer Error, do you know if there is any specific form of words (or form to complete) that I should use?

    I've never had to deal with HMRC in this manner before, so I'm learning as I go along. As I'm sure others find, it's very difficult to argue your case when you don't know how their systems work.
    • antonic
    • By antonic 24th Mar 18, 2:08 PM
    • 1,788 Posts
    • 2,619 Thanks
    antonic
    • #7
    • 24th Mar 18, 2:08 PM
    • #7
    • 24th Mar 18, 2:08 PM
    I would suggest that you register for a Personal Tax Account : https://www.gov.uk/personal-tax-account

    Then you can notify HMRC of your problems.
    LBM Sept 2005 spoke to Payplan - brilliant !
    Dec 2005 debt 21.959.64 + HBOS Int 1769.32
    June 2013 debt 0.00
    DF status confirmed by email 10/07/13
    DFW Long Hauler 297
    • Footslog
    • By Footslog 24th Mar 18, 2:24 PM
    • 10 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Footslog
    • #8
    • 24th Mar 18, 2:24 PM
    • #8
    • 24th Mar 18, 2:24 PM
    Thanks antonic, I am registered.
    Do you think they take more notice of online communications than phone calls/letters sent by post? I certainly got no reply to the letter I wrote asking them for help.
    • antonic
    • By antonic 24th Mar 18, 2:45 PM
    • 1,788 Posts
    • 2,619 Thanks
    antonic
    • #9
    • 24th Mar 18, 2:45 PM
    • #9
    • 24th Mar 18, 2:45 PM
    Not sure,

    But what I would say is that they cant say they never got your letter in the first place !

    Thanks antonic, I am registered.
    Do you think they take more notice of online communications than phone calls/letters sent by post? I certainly got no reply to the letter I wrote asking them for help.
    Originally posted by Footslog
    LBM Sept 2005 spoke to Payplan - brilliant !
    Dec 2005 debt 21.959.64 + HBOS Int 1769.32
    June 2013 debt 0.00
    DF status confirmed by email 10/07/13
    DFW Long Hauler 297
    • ashg1990
    • By ashg1990 24th Mar 18, 3:25 PM
    • 6 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    ashg1990
    HMRC Refund confusing me
    Well this is my first time in 3 years i have actual got a tax rebate
    i requested this for repayment on 20/03/2018
    next day it to pending ban repayment

    today i check and its show this

    Bank repayment:269.73Date:26 Mar 2018Payee:Youdoes this mean i will have 269.73 in my account on monday ?
    • xylophone
    • By xylophone 24th Mar 18, 4:43 PM
    • 25,187 Posts
    • 14,834 Thanks
    xylophone
    No it isnt.
    Thank you for the clarification.

    Nevertheless, the OP is not at fault and has done all he reasonably can to resolve matters, without much assistance from HMRC .

    You have yourself suggested action which HMRC might have taken.

    In the OP's situation, in the face of HMRC's constant passing of the buck, I would be inclined to refer the matter to my MP.
    • dori2o
    • By dori2o 24th Mar 18, 8:32 PM
    • 7,581 Posts
    • 12,674 Thanks
    dori2o
    Thank you for the clarification.

    Nevertheless, the OP is not at fault and has done all he reasonably can to resolve matters, without much assistance from HMRC .

    You have yourself suggested action which HMRC might have taken.

    In the OP's situation, in the face of HMRC's constant passing of the buck, I would be inclined to refer the matter to my MP.
    Originally posted by xylophone
    I absolutely agree that the OP isnt to blame here. I lay the blame squarely on the employer. It may be down to an error with the payroll provider, but it is the employer who is ultimately responsible and they seem to be refusing to accept responsibility or meet their obligations.

    HMRC are not passing the buck. They are simply requiring that the employer follows the PAYE regulations and RTI guidance and update the record correctly so that the tax calculation can be amended.

    To be honest even an MP's letter is unlikely to move the issue on beyond HMRC asking the employer to review the details and meet their obligations

    With RTI submissions it is only the employer who can make the amendment.

    OP. You say you have a personal tax account.

    Within the PTA you can view your employment history. Including start and end dates.

    Check the employment history to see if the start and end dates are held for these 2 periods of employment.

    Once you have checked please come back to advise.

    Also, you say you have had no response to your letter, when did you send it in?
    Last edited by dori2o; 24-03-2018 at 8:42 PM.
    To equate judgement and wisdom with occupation is at best . . . insulting.
    • dori2o
    • By dori2o 24th Mar 18, 8:40 PM
    • 7,581 Posts
    • 12,674 Thanks
    dori2o
    Well this is my first time in 3 years i have actual got a tax rebate
    i requested this for repayment on 20/03/2018
    next day it to pending ban repayment

    today i check and its show this

    Bank repayment:269.73Date:26 Mar 2018Payee:Youdoes this mean i will have 269.73 in my account on monday ?
    Originally posted by ashg1990
    You should really start your own thread, but the change to the statement means that the payment has now been authorised and released.

    Its a BACS payment to a bank account. It now depends on how long it takes your bank to process a BACS payment. This differs from bank to bank but on average its between 3-5 working days.

    HMRC do not issue repayments through the Faster Payment Service.
    To equate judgement and wisdom with occupation is at best . . . insulting.
    • Redredwine
    • By Redredwine 25th Mar 18, 1:01 PM
    • 9 Posts
    • 19 Thanks
    Redredwine
    The employer needs to do an EYU, they have reported the first payment as year to date earnings in error. It was a payment after leaving and not year to date earnings. It is in their best interest to do this as the system thinks that they have deducted 3210 twice and therefore HMRC will be wanting the second amount back too
    • Footslog
    • By Footslog 27th Mar 18, 6:09 PM
    • 10 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Footslog
    Dori2o,
    Apologies for the delayed reply - I seem to have stopped getting email notifications on updates to this thread.

    OP. You say you have a personal tax account.

    Within the PTA you can view your employment history. Including start and end dates.

    Check the employment history to see if the start and end dates are held for these 2 periods of employment.

    Once you have checked please come back to advise.

    Also, you say you have had no response to your letter, when did you send it in?
    I've logged into my PTA. I can't see specific employment start/end dates as such, but in the PAYE section for 2016/2017, the details of the two payments are shown as follows:
    "The taxable income and the Income Tax and National Insurance you paid from 15 April 2016 to 15 April 2016."
    (Date/Taxable income/ Income tax paid/ NI paid)
    15 April 2016/ 9360.00/ 3210.66/ 0.00
    --------------------------------------------------
    "The taxable income and the Income Tax and National Insurance you paid from 13 May 2016 to 18 August 2016."
    (Date/ Taxable income/ Income tax paid/ NI paid)
    13 May2016/ 0.00/ 0.00/ 0.00
    18 August 2016/ 6039.17/ 1990.26/ 403.84
    Total 15669.17/ 5200.92/ 403.84

    Does that answer your question? (As I mentioned previously, my employment actually ceased in November 2015).

    My letter to HMRC was dated 24 August 2017.

    Thanks for your continued interest.
    • Footslog
    • By Footslog 9th Apr 18, 9:42 AM
    • 10 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Footslog
    Any further thoughts on my situation Dori2o?
    Thanks
    • dori2o
    • By dori2o 9th Apr 18, 8:56 PM
    • 7,581 Posts
    • 12,674 Thanks
    dori2o
    when was the last time you contacted HMRC?

    The figures on the personal tax account now seem to be correct. Showing a total income of 15k not 24k (9k + 9k + 5k). The figures on the PTA are taken directly from RTI details held on your tax record.

    When you say that you rejected the cheque HMRC sent to you did you send it back to them explaining why?

    If so it's possible that they wrote to your employer at that time to request that they amend the figures and it may now have been done.

    If you did send the cheque back explaining why then that payment should now have been cancelled. It's possible that HMRC will have your case set for review on a certain date which may not have passed yet. HMRC tend to give a long review period to these cases as it depends on the employer responding to their request/information which often takes a long time. They therefore give 3/6 months before the case would be reviewed again from when the cheque is returned and cancelled.

    Within the PTA you can select a link 'Check your income tax'. From here you can submit a repayment request online. These are usually dealt with within 5/10 working days.

    Submit the iForm. It will ask you what you want refunded/why you think a refund is due. put a quick explanation that you sent the refund back because it was wrong and that the figures on PTA now seem to be correct.

    Alternatively phone and an adviser will be able to tell you if an EYU has been submitted and he figures amended. They will also be able to sort out any refund now due.
    Last edited by dori2o; 09-04-2018 at 10:41 PM.
    To equate judgement and wisdom with occupation is at best . . . insulting.
    • Footslog
    • By Footslog 10th Apr 18, 6:13 PM
    • 10 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Footslog
    Thanks for all the info Dori2o.

    I must admit I hadn't really thought about that second entry (13May and 18Aug) consisting of 0.00 and 6309.17 amount, just that the 'Total' is 15669.17. But now you point it out, it does look promising.

    When I first received the refund cheque last September, I phoned HMRC and told them it was wrong and they told me not to present it. I've sat on it since then and it's now > 6 months old, so no longer valid. I wasn't asked to return it.

    I just tried to do as you suggested - drafted an explanation on the iForm, but then I got an "Access Denied - you don't have permission to access...on this server" error when I clicked on 'Continue'. I'm assuming it's a temporary blip so I'll try it again later on.

    I last spoke to an HMRC advisor about 4 weeks ago and was told the situation hadn't changed, and they were still waiting for the correction. So it is possible that my ex-employer has done as HMRC have asked since then. If I can't get the iForm to work, I'll try phoning HMRC again.

    Once again, many thanks for your assistance.
Welcome to our new Forum!

Our aim is to save you money quickly and easily. We hope you like it!

Forum Team Contact us

Live Stats

3,769Posts Today

8,800Users online

Martin's Twitter