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  • FIRST POST
    • mezzyd
    • By mezzyd 21st Mar 18, 9:54 PM
    • 16Posts
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    mezzyd
    University PCN
    • #1
    • 21st Mar 18, 9:54 PM
    University PCN 21st Mar 18 at 9:54 PM
    A university is a member of BPA to manage parking across the campus & issues permits to staff & students. A permit holder has been issued a PCN as he parked outside a marked bay (says many bays were taken up by non permit holders, hence no legitimate spaces left). As the permit scheme requires students to specify a vehicle, I guess this will allow the university to already know the name of the driver? I am intending to follow the advice by appealing towards the end of the 28 day period, but should it still be as the keeper, bearing in mind they already know the identity of the driver? Any other hints for this scenario would be much appreciated.
Page 1
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 21st Mar 18, 10:13 PM
    • 60,110 Posts
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    Coupon-mad
    • #2
    • 21st Mar 18, 10:13 PM
    • #2
    • 21st Mar 18, 10:13 PM
    As the permit scheme requires students to specify a vehicle, I guess this will allow the university to already know the name of the driver?
    Nope, the driver could have been me/anyone(!) another student with that student, family member...

    I am intending to follow the advice by appealing towards the end of the 28 day period, but should it still be as the keeper,
    Yes, definitely.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 22nd Mar 18, 9:22 AM
    • 9,968 Posts
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    The Deep
    • #3
    • 22nd Mar 18, 9:22 AM
    • #3
    • 22nd Mar 18, 9:22 AM
    This is an entirely unregulated industry which is scamming the public with inflated claims for minor breaches of contracts for alleged parking offences, aided and abetted by a handful of low-rent solicitors.

    Parking Eye, CPM, Smart, and another company have already been named and shamed, as has Gladstones Solicitors, and BW Legal, (these two law firms take hundreds of these cases to court each year). They lose most of them, and have been reported to the regulatory authority by an M.P. for unprofessional conduct

    Hospital car parks and residential complex tickets have been especially mentioned.

    The problem has become so rampant that MPs have agreed to enact a Bill to regulate these scammers. Watch the video of the Second Reading in the HofC recently.

    http://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/2f0384f2-eba5-4fff-ab07-cf24b6a22918?in=12:49:41

    and complain in the most robust terms to your MP. With a fair wind most of these companies may well be put out of business by Christmas.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • mezzyd
    • By mezzyd 27th Mar 18, 9:14 AM
    • 16 Posts
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    mezzyd
    • #4
    • 27th Mar 18, 9:14 AM
    Signage
    • #4
    • 27th Mar 18, 9:14 AM
    Thanks for the input so far. May I ask about the signs - is it acceptable for the signs to refer to other term & conditions (University Regulations for the Management of Traffic), without actually spelling them all out? Would this be a useful argument at POPLA?
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 27th Mar 18, 9:41 AM
    • 18,974 Posts
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    Umkomaas
    • #5
    • 27th Mar 18, 9:41 AM
    • #5
    • 27th Mar 18, 9:41 AM
    Thanks for the input so far. May I ask about the signs - is it acceptable for the signs to refer to other term & conditions (University Regulations for the Management of Traffic), without actually spelling them all out? Would this be a useful argument at POPLA?
    Originally posted by mezzyd
    There's no prescribed wording for signs. What you are stating above doesn't invalidate the sign. It won't, of its own, be a showstopper at POPLA.

    But signage is important as it is the purported contract with the driver, so rather than look for tiny loopholes, it's better to make an overall appraisal of the signs on site.

    Please read the BPA Code of Practice to check out what is required - and size can matter! - read Section B18 of the main body, then Appendix B.

    http://www.britishparking.co.uk/write/Documents/AOS/AOS_Code_of_Practice_January_2018.pdf

    Also read the NEWBIES FAQ sticky, post #3 about how to develop a POPLA appeal, and in particular (for the purpose of assessing the Uni's signage), there is a large ready made signage appeal section where the signage arguments are made.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 27th Mar 18, 9:27 PM
    • 60,110 Posts
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    Coupon-mad
    • #6
    • 27th Mar 18, 9:27 PM
    • #6
    • 27th Mar 18, 9:27 PM
    May I ask about the signs - is it acceptable for the signs to refer to other term & conditions (University Regulations for the Management of Traffic), without actually spelling them all out? Would this be a useful argument at POPLA?
    That could be a useful argument at POPLA, yes, because it can't be assumed that the driver was someone who had ever been served with those other t&cs. No assumption can be made that the driver was a current student or staff member, could have been a family member, friend, or someone unconnected with the University, dropping something off, etc.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • mezzyd
    • By mezzyd 1st Apr 18, 3:40 PM
    • 16 Posts
    • 24 Thanks
    mezzyd
    • #7
    • 1st Apr 18, 3:40 PM
    • #7
    • 1st Apr 18, 3:40 PM
    Thanks for that. Sorry to come back with further questions, but I feel this has to be handled quite carefully as the university is the landowner as well as the BPA operator & has the power to cancel the permit which will cause a lot of difficulty. As the regs say that permits are not transferable & students have to register one vehicle only, would refusing to name the driver be possibly seen as a breach of the regulations anyway?

    With the initial appeal to the university, I am thinking I need to ask nicely for a cancellation based on too many non permit holders taking up the proper bays, meaning the driver had to park outside a marked bay (this was the contravention).

    Then if this is refused, to go to POPLA with the normal questions over signs, plus deficiencies on the parking charge notice, plus arguing that this is a penalty - different to Beavis as no legitimate purpose (valid permit already held, purpose of parking enforcement declared as to deter non permit holders), manifestly excessive (increase in penalty by 133.33% last year, higher than LA tickets, aimed at students with little earning potential), not commercially justifiable (operator & landowner is an educational institution not profit-making company).

    Any comments much appreciated.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 3rd Apr 18, 12:23 AM
    • 60,110 Posts
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    Coupon-mad
    • #8
    • 3rd Apr 18, 12:23 AM
    • #8
    • 3rd Apr 18, 12:23 AM
    As the regs say that permits are not transferable & students have to register one vehicle only, would refusing to name the driver be possibly seen as a breach of the regulations anyway?
    No, not at all, honestly. A car with a student permit does not have to DRIVEN by that same student. The driver could have been a family member, friend, or someone unconnected with the University, dropping something off, etc. or simply another student sitting in the driver's seat, next to the permit-holding student and practising their parking on private land ready for a test. Could be anyone driving!

    With the initial appeal to the university, I am thinking I need to ask nicely for a cancellation based on too many non permit holders taking up the proper bays, meaning the driver had to park outside a marked bay (this was the contravention).
    Won't work, but if you like. As long as you never say who was driving.


    Then if this is refused, to go to POPLA with the normal questions over signs, plus deficiencies on the parking charge notice, plus arguing that this is a penalty - different to Beavis as no legitimate purpose (valid permit already held, purpose of parking enforcement declared as to deter non permit holders), manifestly excessive (increase in penalty by 133.33% last year, higher than LA tickets, aimed at students with little earning potential), not commercially justifiable (operator & landowner is an educational institution not profit-making company).
    OK, but your first point will be 'no keeper liability, no NTK was served' and you will be timing it to make sure you are safely past the 56 day point for them to serve one!
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • mezzyd
    • By mezzyd 12th Apr 18, 7:58 AM
    • 16 Posts
    • 24 Thanks
    mezzyd
    • #9
    • 12th Apr 18, 7:58 AM
    • #9
    • 12th Apr 18, 7:58 AM
    Have done the initial appeal as keeper, acknowledged by email which was signed off - "yours faithfully, Smart Parking". I was surprised as the Operator is the university, this is the first mention of Smart Parking, which is also on the BPA list.

    I just wondered it anyone else has come across this sort of situation - it implies to me that there's a third party involved in the parking enforcement.?
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 12th Apr 18, 8:08 AM
    • 18,974 Posts
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    Umkomaas
    This could be an equivalent of a self ticketing operation. Likely to be the Uni's security people placing tickets on vehicles, taking a photo, then uploading the details to Smart Parking to contact the DVLA (if the initial charge hasn't been paid) for keeper details.

    In your case it seems that Smart are providing the back office appeals process for your Uni.

    Which University is this please?
    Last edited by Umkomaas; 12-04-2018 at 8:12 AM.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • mezzyd
    • By mezzyd 12th Apr 18, 8:53 AM
    • 16 Posts
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    mezzyd
    University of Kent
    • Johno100
    • By Johno100 12th Apr 18, 9:09 AM
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    Johno100
    No mention of using Smart Parking on here. Says it is all in house with the university's Credit Control Team doing the debt recovery.

    https://www.kent.ac.uk/transport/enforcement/index.html

    I also note the original ticket is apparently just 35, seems very low for a private parking company to get involved.
    Last edited by Johno100; 12-04-2018 at 9:14 AM.
    • mezzyd
    • By mezzyd 14th Apr 18, 10:58 PM
    • 16 Posts
    • 24 Thanks
    mezzyd
    Thanks for the responses.

    Coupon- mad, I've been interested to see your points about ANPR & ICO & think this may be relevant when I have to go to POPLA. The car park is not constantly monitored but I believe handheld ANPR cameras were used for enforcement to check for virtual parking permits, yet there is no mention at all on any signage. May I ask whether you will be adding to the NEWBIES thread with a template on this point at all, as I think that might be really helpful?

    Thanks again to all
    • mezzyd
    • By mezzyd 28th Jun 18, 9:28 PM
    • 16 Posts
    • 24 Thanks
    mezzyd
    POPLA decision
    Had an interesting result from POPLA, stated that the appeal was unsuccessful, however on reading the assessor's decision they stated that they were allowing the appeal as they weren't satisfied that the appellant was the driver & no attempt to use POFA 2012 by the university
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 28th Jun 18, 9:29 PM
    • 18,974 Posts
    • 29,848 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    Had an interesting result from POPLA, stated that the appeal was unsuccessful, however on reading the assessor's decision they stated that they were allowing the appeal as they weren't satisfied that the appellant was the driver & no attempt to use POFA 2012 by the university
    Originally posted by mezzyd
    When did you receive that?
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • mezzyd
    • By mezzyd 28th Jun 18, 9:32 PM
    • 16 Posts
    • 24 Thanks
    mezzyd
    Received today
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 28th Jun 18, 9:39 PM
    • 18,974 Posts
    • 29,848 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    Received today
    Originally posted by mezzyd
    You need to write to POPLA to get them to clarify this. You're punching the air because of the statement towards the end of the POPLA assessment; it's quite possible that the Uni might just read the first line 'Unsuccessful' and might be punching the air too!

    You need clarity. Otherwise this might run on a bit further.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • mezzyd
    • By mezzyd 28th Jun 18, 9:47 PM
    • 16 Posts
    • 24 Thanks
    mezzyd
    You're right & I will seek clarification tomorrow, thanks
    • mezzyd
    • By mezzyd 3rd Jul 18, 10:50 PM
    • 16 Posts
    • 24 Thanks
    mezzyd
    POPLA decision
    Have now received written confirmation that the appeal was allowed which is great news. In the end I did not raise no keeper liability in the POPLA appeal due to concerns about the permit system, although I did raise plenty of other grounds, basically picked up every little aspect where the university had not complied with the BPA code of practice. However the university had not served a notice to keeper & the assessor picked that up herself & allowed the appeal as no evidence that the driver had been identified sufficiently.
    Thanks once again to all for the wise advice received.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 3rd Jul 18, 10:57 PM
    • 60,110 Posts
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    Coupon-mad
    Hooray, well done!

    Have you copied the decision (adding paragraph gaps...!) into the 'POPLA Decisions' top sticky thread, with a link back to this thread and saying which PPC you beat?
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

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