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  • FIRST POST
    • Tygermoth
    • By Tygermoth 20th Mar 18, 11:08 AM
    • 1,354Posts
    • 2,752Thanks
    Tygermoth
    Visiting tradesman -your responsibility?
    • #1
    • 20th Mar 18, 11:08 AM
    Visiting tradesman -your responsibility? 20th Mar 18 at 11:08 AM
    We had an issue with our boiler over last week. We have home emergency cover and they sent out a gentleman to fix it. Sadly it turned out to be pumping out carbon monoxide and was switched off by the engineer (moral of that little story get a carbon monoxide meter people!)

    This necessitated several visits to fix the thing and on each occasion the engineer parking in the bay to the front of the house which has several marked spaces and a visitors spot. However on the last visit he arrived before us and for reasons known only to him he parked in the lane that runs along the side of our house that goes to two further houses instead.

    Its seems that that the gentleman who lives in the house that owns the lane went out and asked him to move. By all accounts things escalated rapidly and each states the other threw a punch. No one saw this and a whole mess of he said she said was done. Police were called (did not arrive apparently) and drama ensued all over before we got home.

    Totally clueless to what had been going on I wander up to my front door to find the lane owner camped out on our doorstep foaming at the mouth livid. We have had some mild run ins before regards a damp spot (which still remains) on a wall that can only be accessed from our garden and wanting comp for guttering he felt our tree contributed to falling off so he is rather rude to me as standard.

    He was rather aggressive and did not react well when I advised that I was not aware anything had happened (he had assumed the plumber would have called me in the intervening time). He launched in to the fact that my employee had caused distress and assaulted him. I advised he was not my employee and was wholly instructed by my insurance company. At that point he accused me of flim- flamming him and I pay the insurer so to get my head out of my rear. (well, a less polite version)

    This morning I have received a card through the door stating that the plumber was paid by me so therefore employed by me, he does not give two hoots what method that payment was made for example through an insurer. He is demanding several things but the main gist he is getting at is some form of compensation for the behaviour of my employee on his land.

    I had provided him the complaints number for the insurer but he has decided that I am the quote ultimately responsible party unquote and refused to speak or deal with them. I have sent a copy of the card over to the insurer who seems to be rather casual regards the whole thing, which I can see why on a totally unwitnessed issue.

    So my plan is a broken record approach of that I have passed everything along to the legal team at the insurer and not engage.

    However my OH is working from home today and has spotted him coming round to the front of the house every time a car parks up in the bay so it looks like he is looking to catch me coming home.

    I never want to make assumptions so I am just checking I am not going to get in trouble right?
    Last edited by Tygermoth; 20-03-2018 at 11:18 AM.
    Please note I have a cognitive disability - as such my wording can be a bit off, muddled, misspelt or in some cases i can miss out some words totally...
Page 5
    • Savvy_Sue
    • By Savvy_Sue 9th Apr 18, 8:14 AM
    • 38,380 Posts
    • 34,979 Thanks
    Savvy_Sue
    You can get special stuff to clean graffiti off, plus anti-graffiti paint to go on afterwards. There is an inexpensive one here.
    Still knitting!
    Completed: 1 adult cardigan, 3 baby jumpers, 3 shawls, 1 sweat band, 3 pairs baby bootees,
    1 Wise Man Knitivity figure + 1 sheep, 2 pairs socks, 2 hats 2 balaclavas for seamen, 1 balaclava for myself ...
    Current projects: Poppies, mohair cardigan pattern on order...
    • Doozergirl
    • By Doozergirl 9th Apr 18, 9:00 AM
    • 24,918 Posts
    • 68,313 Thanks
    Doozergirl
    Oh my goodness. This, and the reaction of the police, is why you need CCTV. You are allowed to have it to reasonably protect your property. As long as it's not pointing in other people's windows (so you need to consider how to cover as much space - probably at high level on one side pointing down and across the front/side of house so it's just covering your patch).

    You need both evidence and deterrent.

    It's absolutely not on and harrasssment and vandalism is not a civil matter. I'm not surprised the plumber lamped him one at this point.
    Everything that is supposed to be in heaven is already here on earth.
    • AnotherJoe
    • By AnotherJoe 9th Apr 18, 9:04 AM
    • 9,015 Posts
    • 9,904 Thanks
    AnotherJoe
    I would Make a specific complaint about the graffiti to the police. Whatever he said doesn't matter a jot if they take him to court.
    • moneyistooshorttomention
    • By moneyistooshorttomention 9th Apr 18, 9:05 AM
    • 15,337 Posts
    • 42,767 Thanks
    moneyistooshorttomention
    Report vandalism / criminal damage to the police.
    Originally posted by G_M
    Agreed - and take a photo of it before you have it removed.
    ***************
    • moneyistooshorttomention
    • By moneyistooshorttomention 9th Apr 18, 9:08 AM
    • 15,337 Posts
    • 42,767 Thanks
    moneyistooshorttomention
    The police refused to come out citing a 'civil dispute'

    I argued that was not the case especially with the knocking and bell ringing when he knows it's not us. They still didn't come out but i did get a call back from one of the ladies as they had called and spoken to him.

    Apparently he didn't spray paint my wall.

    "It was a random act of kindness from someone how has obviously seen what's been going on with the parking in the lane" he doesn't condone it but can see why they might have done it.

    *fuming*
    Originally posted by Tygermoth
    "A random act of kindness" by a stranger - oh really? I can see those pigs flying past.....

    I'd try taking it higher with the police and not give up on getting them to do their job of dealing with it.

    I'd second getting cctv at this point - as I wouldnt be surprised if he puts that graffiti up again after you've removed it. Next time - well it might act as a deterrant and, if it doesnt, and he repeats the vandalism = you'll have proof it's him and not some misguided "kind stranger".
    Last edited by moneyistooshorttomention; 09-04-2018 at 9:11 AM.
    ***************
    • bouicca21
    • By bouicca21 9th Apr 18, 9:09 AM
    • 3,571 Posts
    • 5,291 Thanks
    bouicca21
    If there are no witnesses to the spray painting then it is unlikely to get to court. I'd be more inclined to pursue the harassment angle.
    • Davesnave
    • By Davesnave 9th Apr 18, 9:47 AM
    • 24,803 Posts
    • 92,089 Thanks
    Davesnave
    If there are no witnesses to the spray painting then it is unlikely to get to court. I'd be more inclined to pursue the harassment angle.
    Originally posted by bouicca21
    Agreed, the graffiti pig has flown, but like Arnie, he'll be back, and better evidence-collection re harassment is probably the only way he'll eventually be stopped.
    'A society grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they'll never sit in.'
    • Savvy_Sue
    • By Savvy_Sue 9th Apr 18, 10:50 AM
    • 38,380 Posts
    • 34,979 Thanks
    Savvy_Sue
    If there are no witnesses to the spray painting then it is unlikely to get to court. I'd be more inclined to pursue the harassment angle.
    Originally posted by bouicca21
    got the impression neighbour opposite had seen him at it?
    Still knitting!
    Completed: 1 adult cardigan, 3 baby jumpers, 3 shawls, 1 sweat band, 3 pairs baby bootees,
    1 Wise Man Knitivity figure + 1 sheep, 2 pairs socks, 2 hats 2 balaclavas for seamen, 1 balaclava for myself ...
    Current projects: Poppies, mohair cardigan pattern on order...
    • david1951
    • By david1951 9th Apr 18, 12:11 PM
    • 388 Posts
    • 443 Thanks
    david1951
    Call crimestoppers on 0800 555 111 and see what they say. They will probably suggest collecting any evidence (your own statement is a form of evidence, as is that of any neighbour, and also a photo of the damage and it's proximity to his house) and formally reporting it to the police. The standard of proof is 'beyond any reasonable doubt'; therefore they may choose not to pursue the case depending on the evidence. You might think this is a clear cut case (it sounds like it), but given the cuts to the CPS and police nothing surprises me anymore.

    It is partly a civil dispute - you can sue him for the cost of removing the graffiti. The standard of proof is 'balance of probabilities'. This means that it must be more likely than not that he caused the damage. In this case, he will basically need to stand in front of a judge and either refuse to answer the question, lie, or admit that he caused the damage. I'd say you would quite easily win. Be wary that winning a civil suit against him is not likely to please him (he sounds like the sort of guy that would seek revenge, rather than admit his errors).

    Maybe too late for tea and cake, but that's still an option if you think tempers can be controlled.....
    Last edited by david1951; 10-04-2018 at 11:16 PM.
    • TBagpuss
    • By TBagpuss 9th Apr 18, 12:21 PM
    • 6,434 Posts
    • 8,323 Thanks
    TBagpuss
    The police refused to come out citing a 'civil dispute'

    I argued that was not the case especially with the knocking and bell ringing when he knows it's not us. They still didn't come out but i did get a call back from one of the ladies as they had called and spoken to him.

    Apparently he didn't spray paint my wall.

    "It was a random act of kindness from someone how has obviously seen what's been going on with the parking in the lane" he doesn't condone it but can see why they might have done it.

    *fuming*
    Originally posted by Tygermoth
    I would get back to the police and state that you wish to make a formal report of harassment with a view to charges being pressed. If they try to brush you off, ask to speak to someone of the rank of inspector or above.

    From what you describe, his behaviour fits the definition of harassment (it involves a course of conduct amounting to harassment) which is a criminal offence. Make the point that this individual has already assaulted (been accused of assaulting) one person over this issue and that his harassment is escalating.

    Log each and every further incident with the police.

    it may be worth your while to send him a letter, either written by you (post it, get proof of posting, and keep a copy) or by a solicitor, to state that his coming to your home, ringing your doorbell, or approaching you in the street will be considered to be harassment and will be reported as such, and then any communication is to be in writing only. if you want, you could make the point that you do not park in the lane, that you do, and will continue to, inform your visitors not to do so but that you are not responsible for the actions of anyone other than yourself and will not be able to enter into any discussion about vehicles other than your own.


    You could, if you wish, add a separate letter to remind him that the wall is yours and that he is not to paint or fix anything on or two it without your written consent abut that you would be prepared to discuss arrangements for a 'no parking ' sign if he wishes (you could then determine what you were comfortable with, in terms of the size of the sign, how it is attached to your property etc. If it was me, I might want it to be put up by a professional and with a written agreement to make good any damage, but that would depend a bit on the wall - I'm not sure if it is your house wall or a garden wall)

    I would also consider a camera for your front door to record his behaviour. With regard to the lane, I'm not sure where you would stand, as any camera would presumably be fixed to your wall but recording the lane / his land - get advice first.

    on the original point, I think that the fact that the contractor was employed by your insurers not you direct is a red herring. You are not their employer (and wouldn't be, even if you had instructed them directly). His beef is with the contractor (or the plumbing firm, if the individual is employed)

    If your neighbour is behaving in a similar way to other neighbours it may be worth them contacting the police as well, to report harassment / anti-social behaviour.

    When you speak to the police, use the term harassment specifically.
    • armchaireconomist
    • By armchaireconomist 9th Apr 18, 12:23 PM
    • 213 Posts
    • 289 Thanks
    armchaireconomist
    Do not take the "civil dispute" nonsense. It is harassment and criminal damage, demand they take action. Who knows what he is capable of.
    • gingercordial
    • By gingercordial 9th Apr 18, 1:13 PM
    • 1,131 Posts
    • 1,173 Thanks
    gingercordial
    Could you put up a sign on your wall saying "This area is covered by CCTV" even if it isn't? That might at least make him think twice before another bout of graffiti, plus as a bonus will drive him mad looking for the non-existent camera.
    • m0bov
    • By m0bov 9th Apr 18, 1:18 PM
    • 1,264 Posts
    • 857 Thanks
    m0bov
    this really should have been nipped in the bud much earlier on. Next time he is out there, call 999 and tell them someone is trying to attack you.
    • Slinky
    • By Slinky 9th Apr 18, 1:31 PM
    • 5,140 Posts
    • 23,561 Thanks
    Slinky
    Have you tried telling him that if he doesn't stop harrassing you about people not parking in the lane, that you will START parking in the lane and instruct all your visitors and ask your neighbours if they will too.

    If he wants a war, you've got plenty of mileage to ramp it up and make it much worse for him.

    Would be worth buying an old wreck and dumping it there......
    • powerful_Rogue
    • By powerful_Rogue 9th Apr 18, 1:33 PM
    • 3,375 Posts
    • 4,948 Thanks
    powerful_Rogue
    AAAGH! i've been ignoring all the knocking this afternoon but my opposite neighbour managed to catch my eye while i was in the utility and motion to me to come out - she's been knocking to try and let me know he's only gone and spray painted no parking on my side wall!!
    Originally posted by Tygermoth
    I'd just remove the word "No"
    • moneyistooshorttomention
    • By moneyistooshorttomention 9th Apr 18, 1:35 PM
    • 15,337 Posts
    • 42,767 Thanks
    moneyistooshorttomention
    got the impression neighbour opposite had seen him at it?
    Originally posted by Savvy_Sue
    So did I

    - though, as we all know, there are many that "see" that then get "frit" and won't own up officially to having "seen".

    Many people won't even stand up for themselves - never mind on other peoples behalf.
    Last edited by moneyistooshorttomention; 09-04-2018 at 1:40 PM.
    ***************
    • DaftyDuck
    • By DaftyDuck 9th Apr 18, 3:30 PM
    • 4,116 Posts
    • 8,550 Thanks
    DaftyDuck
    TBagpuss and armchaireconomist have good advice. The police are often too ready to try to avoid involvement in issues, either through ignorance, or through a desire to simply avoid involvement and save themselves the effort.

    There is a clear and escalating chain of events, clear evidence of harassment, and appears reasonable evidence of criminal damage. There is a reasonable expectation of more harassing activity, whenever somebody parks in this area, and there is clear evidence of an uncontrolled temper disposed to violence.

    Re-contact the police. Ask to speak with, or for a call back from, the duty inspector, and ask him to escalate dealing with the harassment and criminal damage. Don't take "no" for an answer. If necessary, call a different station.

    I would avoid all confrontation - even interaction - with the neighbour, if possible, and would certainly not follow the suggestions of removing the painted "no", or calling 999 and claiming you are being attacked. In fact, OP, I've more respect for you, from your posting, to believe you would do anything so crass.

    However, the "gentleman" is showing concerning trends of persistent and aggressive actions, and the police need to deal with this.
    • robatwork
    • By robatwork 9th Apr 18, 4:07 PM
    • 4,166 Posts
    • 4,574 Thanks
    robatwork
    Tell the police your neighbour is at your door banging on it and you believe he may have a weapon.

    And get CCTV asap as the police, courts, and some on this forum won't believe you.
    • DaftyDuck
    • By DaftyDuck 9th Apr 18, 7:26 PM
    • 4,116 Posts
    • 8,550 Thanks
    DaftyDuck
    No, don't do anything so silly. All you will do is infuriate the police and lose an ally. I do wish people would stop posting such childish and impetuous advice on this, and other threads, involving police response to serious matters!
    • Tygermoth
    • By Tygermoth 9th Apr 18, 7:43 PM
    • 1,354 Posts
    • 2,752 Thanks
    Tygermoth
    Just a quicky as I'm in a rush.

    The neighbour didn't see him do it - she just knew who had done it. I mean who else would have?

    local crime team have been emailed with my complaint re handling.

    not looking to do anything silly, nor make something up - just not my style.

    Lady across the road however has purchased a 'ring' doorbell after the stacking event which has been repeated a few times. It just happens to capture my front door and a slight view of my side wall sadly not all the way down (BTW its the wall to my house not a garden wall) - she's asked my permission as it overlooks me and i have given it.

    Heck, the picture on that thing is amazing
    Last edited by Tygermoth; 09-04-2018 at 7:51 PM.
    Please note I have a cognitive disability - as such my wording can be a bit off, muddled, misspelt or in some cases i can miss out some words totally...
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