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  • FIRST POST
    • jw505
    • By jw505 18th Mar 18, 11:58 AM
    • 16Posts
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    jw505
    PCM claim form, Ticketed in my own space!
    • #1
    • 18th Mar 18, 11:58 AM
    PCM claim form, Ticketed in my own space! 18th Mar 18 at 11:58 AM
    Need help for a claim form on a parking ticket from PCM.

    I live in a apartment complex where each flat is allocated a parking space, and I own the flat. PCM is the management company of the car park.

    in Sep 2016 I got a parking ticket from PCM while my car is parked at its allocated space but the parking permit label slipped to the floor. I explained and then appealed the ticket to PCM but they insist the rule is displaying the permit at the window therefore the ticket... I called my managing agency but they claim they have no say in this. I ignored the following threatening letters as advised in the forum.

    Yesterday I received the county court claim form (small claim court?). The claim is:
    The driver of the vehicle registration XXXX incurred the parking charge on 23/09/2016 for breaching the terms of parking on the land at XXX(my address).
    the defendant was driving the vehicle and/or is the keeper of the vehicle.
    and the claimant claims £160 for parking charge/damages and indemnity costs if applicable, together with interest of £17.62 pursuant to s69 of the country courts act 1984 at 8% pa, continuing to judgement at £0.05 per day.

    My questions:
    1. what should I do at this point? is there a template I can use to reply to the claim form.
    2. as it's 1.5 years ago, I can't find the original appeal and reply letter. do I need them for the appeal?
    3. any other advise or things I should know?

    I look forward to hearing people's advice. really appreciated!!
Page 1
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 18th Mar 18, 12:03 PM
    • 9,204 Posts
    • 8,969 Thanks
    The Deep
    • #2
    • 18th Mar 18, 12:03 PM
    • #2
    • 18th Mar 18, 12:03 PM
    Read these

    http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2016/11/residential-parking.html

    https://www.parkingcowboys.co.uk/residential-parking/

    This is an entirely unregulated industry which is scamming the public with inflated claims for alleged breaches of contracts for alleged parking offences, aided and abetted by a handful of low-rent solicitors.

    Parking Eye, CPM, Smart, and another company have already been named and shamed, as has Gladstones Solicitors, and BW Legal, (these two law firms take hundreds of these cases to court each year). They nearly always lose, and have been reported to the regulatory authority by an M.P.

    Hospital car parks and residential complex tickets have been especially mentioned.

    The problem has become so rampant that MPs have agreed to enact a Bill to regulate these scammers. Watch the video of the Second Reading in the HofC recently.

    http://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/2f0384f2-eba5-4fff-ab07-cf24b6a22918?in=12:49:41

    and complain in the most robust terms to your MP. With a fair wind most of these companies may well be put out of business by Christmas.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 18th Mar 18, 12:18 PM
    • 36,623 Posts
    • 82,944 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    • #3
    • 18th Mar 18, 12:18 PM
    • #3
    • 18th Mar 18, 12:18 PM
    What does your lease/AST say about parking/parking permits? This will have primacy of contract over anything the scammers say.

    You will find information in post 2 of the NEWBIES on how to respond to a court claim by following the guide written by bargepole.


    Start by acknowledging the claim, stating that you will be defending this. Do not put anything in the defence box. Not even a full stop.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • The Slithy Tove
    • By The Slithy Tove 18th Mar 18, 2:01 PM
    • 3,290 Posts
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    The Slithy Tove
    • #4
    • 18th Mar 18, 2:01 PM
    • #4
    • 18th Mar 18, 2:01 PM
    Get out your lease, and see exactly what it says about parking. Also look out for any clauses around the ability for the landlord/managing agent to impose "regulations" - not that any such regulations allow a third party to charge you money.

    If you consider that they had no right to be "policing" your private parking space, then there's a potential DPA breach in that they have obtained your details without due cause. In which case a counterclaim, which also includes the managing agent, may be in order to focus their minds (particularly if you go for the management company).
    • Half_way
    • By Half_way 18th Mar 18, 2:50 PM
    • 4,116 Posts
    • 5,844 Thanks
    Half_way
    • #5
    • 18th Mar 18, 2:50 PM
    • #5
    • 18th Mar 18, 2:50 PM
    As mentioned above, your lease here is absolutly critical, until you provide that information any advice will be based on guesswork and not worth the effort.
    From the Plain Language Commission:

    "The BPA has surely become one of the most socially dangerous organisations in the UK"
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 18th Mar 18, 3:05 PM
    • 57,449 Posts
    • 71,029 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #6
    • 18th Mar 18, 3:05 PM
    • #6
    • 18th Mar 18, 3:05 PM
    Search the forum for the words 'own space' = very common scam. Read some threads.

    what should I do at this point? is there a template I can use to reply to the claim form.
    We assume you missed the residential cases defence template written by Johnersh, that's in post #2 of the NEWBIES thread among all the example defences.

    Do the AOS on MCOL first, as the NEWBIES thread walks you through in pictures.

    Then show us your adapted draft based on Johnersh's one. NO LINK PROVIDED - NO NEED.

    Go and find it in the NEWBIES thread as we want you to read the whole of the second post there, and my signature tells you how to hop there, with 2 clicks.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 26-03-2018 at 12:09 PM.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • jw505
    • By jw505 25th Mar 18, 10:02 PM
    • 16 Posts
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    jw505
    • #7
    • 25th Mar 18, 10:02 PM
    • #7
    • 25th Mar 18, 10:02 PM
    @CM - Thanks very much for your advise. I have briefly went through the NEWBIES thread (especially 2nd post).
    AOS on MCOL - Done, the claim was filed on 12/03/2018, AOS on 25/03/2018, I have till 13/04/18 to file the Defence.
    I have also found the "Shared Ownership Lease" from the landlord to the previous owner of the flat. The document was dated 2006 and I bought the flat from the previous owner in Jan 2015, followed by parking ticket Sep 2016. I don't remember if we have a updated lease document from the landlord to us, I will confirm and request that from our management agent.

    In the original lease document, there are three terms mentioning parking:

    17. (a) Not to park or to suffer or permit to be parked upon any parking space allocated to the Premises from time to time any vehicle other than a private motor car or such other motor vehicle as may be first approved in writing by the Landlord acting in its absolute discretion

    17. (b) Not to park or to permit or suffer any occupier of the Premises to park any motor vehicle on the Visitors Parking Spaces (if any) the same being intended for use by visitors only

    5. The right to use the parking space allocated for the time being to the Premises the parking space allocated at the time hereof being that shown in Plan 2 with the number corresponding to the flat number of the Premises

    My questions:
    1. what do I need to request or confirm from my management agent?
    2. I plan to draft the Defence using Johnersh's template, anything else do I need to prepare?
    3. The first appeal and respond letters were in early 2017 and I didn't keep those letters, including the original PCN ticket. Do I need to obtain a copy of those for the Defence and how can I do that?
    4. Any other advice?

    Much appreciated for all your help! MSE forum is really kind!!
    • IamEmanresu
    • By IamEmanresu 26th Mar 18, 1:22 PM
    • 2,297 Posts
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    IamEmanresu
    • #8
    • 26th Mar 18, 1:22 PM
    • #8
    • 26th Mar 18, 1:22 PM
    I bought the flat from the previous owner in Jan 2015, followed by parking ticket Sep 2016
    Were PCM on site when you purchased your flat?
    Idiots please note: If you intend NOT to read the information on the Notice of Allocation and hand a simple win to the knuckle dragging ex-clampers, then don't waste people's time with questions on a claim you'll not defend.
    • jw505
    • By jw505 26th Mar 18, 1:35 PM
    • 16 Posts
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    jw505
    • #9
    • 26th Mar 18, 1:35 PM
    • #9
    • 26th Mar 18, 1:35 PM
    Were PCM on site when you purchased your flat?
    Originally posted by IamEmanresu
    yes PCM was on site when I bought the flat.
    • IamEmanresu
    • By IamEmanresu 27th Mar 18, 6:24 AM
    • 2,297 Posts
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    IamEmanresu
    yes PCM was on site when I bought the flat.
    You'll argue primacy of contract in that your lease / rental agreement is unlikely to allow for you paying a third party for a contract that sits outside the lease / rental agreement.

    But there is at least one judge who took the view that as the parking company was there at the time of purchase, there was an implicit assumption that their activities were accepted when you purchased. Just a heads up to have that one covered.
    Idiots please note: If you intend NOT to read the information on the Notice of Allocation and hand a simple win to the knuckle dragging ex-clampers, then don't waste people's time with questions on a claim you'll not defend.
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 27th Mar 18, 8:48 AM
    • 9,204 Posts
    • 8,969 Thanks
    The Deep
    When you sa "shared ownership lease" ddo you mean that the qequity is shared with a HA? If so, report, if the HA is a registerrd charity, male a complaint to the Charity |Commissioners that they are colluding with scammers to defraud residents. Copy your letter to your MP.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • Loadsofchildren123
    • By Loadsofchildren123 27th Mar 18, 10:11 AM
    • 2,058 Posts
    • 3,447 Thanks
    Loadsofchildren123
    Following through Iam's post - when you bought, the PPC was operating there. However, were you told anything at all about any requirement to display a permit? Did you even inspect the car park before you purchased (I imagine you parked there when you viewed the flat, but did you give it anything other than a cursory glance), or just the flat? This will be relevant for your WS and your Defence.
    Although a practising Solicitor, my posts here are NOT legal advice, but are personal opinion based on limited facts provided anonymously by forum users. I accept no liability for the accuracy of any such posts and users are advised that, if they wish to obtain formal legal advice specific to their case, they must seek instruct and pay a solicitor.
    • jw505
    • By jw505 27th Mar 18, 4:27 PM
    • 16 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    jw505
    Following through Iam's post - when you bought, the PPC was operating there. However, were you told anything at all about any requirement to display a permit? Did you even inspect the car park before you purchased (I imagine you parked there when you viewed the flat, but did you give it anything other than a cursory glance), or just the flat? This will be relevant for your WS and your Defence.
    Originally posted by Loadsofchildren123
    I was given the parking permit by the previous owner of the flat so in a way I was informed about displaying the permit. But no official introduction from the management agent or the parking control itself. Since I moved in I have been displayed the permit only that night the permit was not on the dash but fell off to the floor....
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 27th Mar 18, 10:22 PM
    • 57,449 Posts
    • 71,029 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Did you ever wonder who might have leant on or shaken the car, then?

    Who was near the car, you know, taking photos? Think about it.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • jw505
    • By jw505 29th Mar 18, 5:02 PM
    • 16 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    jw505
    the label was not attached to the windscreen. i guess it was just shaken off during my driving?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 29th Mar 18, 5:29 PM
    • 57,449 Posts
    • 71,029 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Maybe, or maybe someone leaned on the car after it was parked, so the permit fell.

    No idea, and you will never know, but PCM are ex-clampers and SOME of those scum firms (not saying PCM?) used to do that. Some nasty clamper thugs were seen in the past rocking cars to dislodge permits, so we heard.

    Here's claxtome's defence that is a good example of a case against a 'fluttering ticket' which is not dissimilar to a 'dislodged permit':

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=73192645#post73192645

    Not the same as yours but has useful words to tell the Judge the Permit was displayed and to suggest that it may have been dislodged after the vehicle was correctly parked, which is outside of the control of the driver.

    It's also a nice one to read from start to finish (long thread but it ends well - a Gladstones case where they have just given up before the hearing!).
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • kryten3000
    • By kryten3000 29th Mar 18, 9:16 PM
    • 45 Posts
    • 85 Thanks
    kryten3000
    If only there was an easy way to identify vehicles that are authorised to park, some sort of plate attached to the front and rear perhaps?
    • IamEmanresu
    • By IamEmanresu 30th Mar 18, 6:35 AM
    • 2,297 Posts
    • 4,100 Thanks
    IamEmanresu
    If only there was an easy way to identify vehicles that are authorised to park, some sort of plate attached to the front and rear perhaps?
    You could have a fancy name for it such as a "whitelist"
    Idiots please note: If you intend NOT to read the information on the Notice of Allocation and hand a simple win to the knuckle dragging ex-clampers, then don't waste people's time with questions on a claim you'll not defend.
    • jw505
    • By jw505 14th Apr 18, 10:46 AM
    • 16 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    jw505
    Hi All, was quite busy on other things and only got time to finish the defence statement before the deadline today. I calculated Issue date 12/03/18 + 5 days (day of service) + 28 days (with AOS) = 14/04/18, correct? I plan to wait for your comments before submitting it, can I submit it online tomorrow (15/04/18)?

    I plan to use Johnersh's template and adapt to suit my case. some thoughts/questions:
    1. I am the only driver named on the car at the time, should I remove the Point 5?
    2. I assume Point 6 is my main defence. should I state I have the parking permit covering the ticket date.
    3. @CM, should I add 5.1-5.3 from claxtome's defence? or any other points?
    4. My contract only say right to park at allocated space but not mentioning displaying a permit all time (Point 5 in #7). How should I defend upon this?
    5. I will request SAR from PCM on this case.

    As always, any help is very much appreciated!!

    Preliminary
    1. The Particulars of Claim lack specificity and are embarrassing. The Defendant is prejudiced and is unable to prepare a full and complete Defence. The Defendant reserves the right to seek from the Court permission to serve an Amended Defence should the Claimant add to or expand his Particulars at a later stage of these proceedings and/or to limit the Claimant only to the unevidenced allegations in the Particulars.
    2. The Particulars of Claim fail to refer to the material terms of any contract and neither comply with the CPR 16 in respect of statements of case, nor the relevant practice direction in respect of claims formed by contract or conduct. The Defendant further notes the Claimant's failure to engage in pre-action correspondence in accordance with the pre-action protocol and with the express aim of avoiding contested litigation.
    Background
    3. It is admitted that at all material times the Defendant is the registered keeper of vehicle registration mark XXZZZ which is the subject of these proceedings. The vehicle is insured with [provider] with [number] of named drivers permitted to use it.
    4. It is admitted that on [date] the Defendant's vehicle was parked at [location]
    5. It is denied that the Defendant was the driver of the vehicle. The Claimant is put to strict proof.
    5.1. The Claimant has provided no evidence (in pre-action correspondence or otherwise) that the Defendant was the driver. The Defendant avers that the Claimant is therefore limited to pursuing the Defendant in these proceedings under the provisions set out by statute in the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 ("POFA")
    5.2. Before seeking to rely on the keeper liability provisions of Schedule 4 POFA the Claimant must demonstrate that:
    5.2.1. there was a “relevant obligation”; either by way of a breach of contract, trespass or other tort; and
    5.2.2. that it has followed the required deadlines and wording as described in the Act to transfer liability from the driver to the registered keeper.
    It is not admitted that the Claimant has complied with the relevant statutory requirements.
    5.3. To the extent that the Claimant may seek to allege that any such presumption exist, the Defendant expressly denies that there is any presumption in law (whether in statute or otherwise) that the keeper is the driver. Further, the Defendant denies that the vehicle keeper is obliged to name the driver to a private parking firm. Had this been the intention of parliament, they would have made such requirements part of POFA, which makes no such provision. In the alternative, an amendment could have been made to s.172 of the Road Traffic Act 1988. The 1988 Act continues to oblige the identification of drivers only in strictly limited circumstances, where a criminal offence has been committed. Those provisions do not apply to this matter.
    Authority to Park and Primacy of Contract
    6. It is denied that the Defendant or lawful users of his/her vehicle were in breach of any parking conditions or were not permitted to park in circumstances where an express permission to park had been granted to the Defendant permitting the above mentioned vehicle to be parked by the current occupier and leaseholder of [address], whose tenancy agreement permits the parking of vehicle(s) on land. The Defendant avers that there was an absolute entitlement to park deriving from the terms of the lease, which cannot be fettered by any alleged parking terms. The lease terms provide the right to park a vehicle in the relevant allocated bay, without limitation as to type of vehicle, ownership of vehicle, the user of the vehicle or the requirement to display a parking permit. A copy of the lease will be provided to the Court, together with witness evidence that prior permission to park had been given.
    7. The Defendant avers that the operator!!!8217;s signs cannot (i) override the existing rights enjoyed by residents and their visitors and (ii) that parking easements cannot retrospectively and unilaterally be restricted where provided for within the lease. The Defendant will rely upon the judgments on appeal of HHJ Harris QC in Jopson v Homeguard Services Ltd (2016) and of Sir Christopher Slade in K-Sultana Saeed v Plustrade Ltd [2001] EWCA Civ 2011. The Court will be referred to further similar fact cases in the event that this matter proceeds to trial.

    7. Accordingly it is denied that:
    7.1. there was any agreement as between the Defendant or driver of the vehicle and the Claimant
    7.2. there was any obligation (at all) to display a permit; and
    7.3. the Claimant has suffered loss or damage or that there is a lawful basis to pursue a claim for loss.
    Alternative Defence - Failure to set out clearly parking terms
    8. In the alternative, the Defendant relies upon ParkingEye Ltd v Barry Beavis (2015) UKSC 67 insofar as the Court were willing to consider the imposition of a penalty in the context of a site of commercial value and where the signage regarding the penalties imposed for any breach of parking terms were clear - both upon entry to the site and throughout.
    8.1. The Defendant avers that the parking signage in this matter was, without prejudice to his/her primary defence above, inadequate.
    8.1.1. At the time of the material events the signage was deficient in number, distribution, wording and lighting to reasonably convey a contractual obligation;
    8.1.2. The signage did not comply with the requirements of the Code of Practice of the Independent Parking Committee’s ("IPC") Accredited Operators Scheme, an organisation to which the Claimant was a signatory; and
    8.1.3. The signage contained particularly onerous terms not sufficiently drawn to the attention of the visitor as set out in the leading judgment of Denning MR in J Spurling v Bradshaw [1956] EWCA Civ 3
    8.2. The Defendant avers that the residential site that is the subject of these proceedings is not a site where there is a commercial value to be protected. The Claimant has not suffered loss or pecuniary disadvantage. The penalty charge is, accordingly, unconscionable in this context, with ParkingEye distinguished.
    9. It is denied that the Claimant has standing to bring any claim in the absence of a contract that expressly permits the Claimant to do so, in addition to merely undertaking parking management. The Claimant has provided no proof of any such entitlement.
    10. It is denied that the Claimant has any entitlement to the sums sought.
    11. It is admitted that interest may be applicable, subject to the discretion of the Court on any sum (if awarded), but it is denied that interest is applicable on the total sums claimed by the Claimant.
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 14th Apr 18, 1:31 PM
    • 7,186 Posts
    • 6,670 Thanks
    KeithP
    Hi All, was quite busy on other things and only got time to finish the defence statement before the deadline today. I calculated Issue date 12/03/18 + 5 days (day of service) + 28 days (with AOS) = 14/04/18, correct? I plan to wait for your comments before submitting it, can I submit it online tomorrow (15/04/18)?
    Originally posted by jw505
    You actually have up to 4pm on Monday to file you defence, but you are right not to leave it to the very last moment.

    When satisfied, send it as a signed pdf email attachment to the easily found ccbcaq email address.
    .
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