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    • Keeboard
    • By Keeboard 17th Mar 18, 3:40 PM
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    Keeboard
    LBC from SCS solicitors - help
    • #1
    • 17th Mar 18, 3:40 PM
    LBC from SCS solicitors - help 17th Mar 18 at 3:40 PM
    After much reading I feel I am starting to finally understand the !!!8220;legal!!!8221; side of all this PPC, However i feel as if I need some guidance since every case is different.

    So on the 5th of December 2017 I received a LBC from SCS solicitors after various letters from debt collectors that were left ignored. Naturally, I panicked thinking I will have to go court and this will be bad for my credit rating. After reading many threads on LBC, I found one thread that had the exact same situation as me (unfortunate i cant post links since I!!!8217;m a new user, so please check my posts from my profile, the thread was started by BRS7)

    ...I followed the template as mentioned in the thread above and sent an appeal disputing the claim as the LBC did not contain all required documentation as required from the Pre-Action Protocols for Claims Debt. I received a letter back from LBC on the 20th Feb 2018 (within the 30day reply period) with documentation including images of the incident (including date, time when picture was taken), the contract between the creditor and the landowner, map of the university (where I parked) although it was very blurry to see anything, and copies of the NTK sent, both the initial NTK and the Final Reminders.

    They claim that I did not have a !!!8220;valid parking permit displayed!!!8221; on the 4 different occasions in 2016. I did not appeal to POPLA when the first NTK!!!8217;s were sent as I was not aware of the procedures and was told by friends to just ignore all letters. Unfortunately, they are right that I did not have a valid parking permit displayed and can be clearly seen from the images taken by the parking ticket officer.

    In order to continue my communication with SCS for the second letter, the only defence I could find was in the POFA 2012 paragraph 4 (5) :

    !!!8220;(5)The maximum sum which may be recovered from the keeper by virtue of the right conferred by this paragraph is the amount specified in the notice to keeper under paragraph 8(2)(c) or (d) or, as the case may be, 9(2)(d) (less any payments towards the unpaid parking charges which are received after the time so specified).!!!8221;

    ...since they added 60 of debt collector money on top of the 100 initially stated on the NTK, i am going to tell SCS that I will only pay 100 per parking charge as described on the NTK. The total payment from 4 incidents comes to 640. I!!!8217;m a recent graduate and cant afford that much!

    IS it still too late to ask for a POPLA since I have not mentioned I am the driver and they are pursing me as the registered keeper?

    Is there any other points I can use to defend my claim and carry on and long out the communication process?

    Any help will be much appreciated. Please let me know if you require any more information I may have failed to mention.

    Keeboard
    Last edited by Keeboard; 17-03-2018 at 3:44 PM.
Page 3
    • Keeboard
    • By Keeboard 23rd Apr 18, 10:10 AM
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    Keeboard
    Sorry. Today is the day I have to send off the letter as period runs out. I have been very busy unfortunately, and I know that's not an excuse.
    • Keeboard
    • By Keeboard 23rd Apr 18, 10:14 AM
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    Keeboard
    The letter they sent rejected my part 36 offer and they offered a new settlement offer, until the 23 April. And that after this date the offer will no longer be valid (for lack of better word). However it doesn't say that this rejection of offer mean it'll go court? If I send a letter to drop hands after the 23 April, say 26 April, would that mean I'm neglecting or being unreasonable?
    • Keeboard
    • By Keeboard 23rd Apr 18, 10:56 AM
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    Keeboard
    Can I still send a drop hands offer after their offer is not 'valid' or expired?

    If so, I have more time to draft a better drop hands offer letter.
    • Keeboard
    • By Keeboard 23rd Apr 18, 10:58 AM
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    Keeboard
    Or maybe a holding letter explaining that as the registered keeper, we are discussing matters to draft up a drop hands offer?
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 23rd Apr 18, 11:16 AM
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    nosferatu1001
    No, just send them a drop hands. Just shorten it - think STRUCTURE and beginning middle end.

    Youre not being unreasonable, just dont delay further.
    • Keeboard
    • By Keeboard 23rd Apr 18, 12:15 PM
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    Keeboard
    Thank you nosferatu.

    Here is a better version:

    Without Prejudice !!!8211;Save As To Costs

    I write in relation to your letter dated 10 April 2018.
    I reject your settlement offer of 544 and offer to settle to !!!8220;drop hands!!!8221; with each party bearing their own costs. I maintain that this claim has no basis as described in the points below:
    1) Photo evidence provided, prior to request, of signages of site location of the claim are unclear and unreadable. It cannot be assumed that the driver would have been able to read & agreed to a penalty (which may or may not have been 100) that was not legible.

    2) Several photos of the vehicle taken in the space of just ONE or TWO minutes only, appears to be predatory, allow no period of grace in accordance with the BPA Code of Practice 13.2 & 13.3 and call for the Claimant to discharge their burden to evidence that the driver was not either:
    - reading or seeking out signage terms within a reasonable ten minute 'grace period, or
    - fetching a permit from an adjacent building within the grace period after arrival, or
    - in fact considered 'authorised' since the only large lettering that is readable just says 'no unauthorised parking' and does not define that, nor show any legible 'parking charge' at all, according to the unclear !!!8216;blurry!!!8217; evidence.
    3) A 2012 signage photo being included appears to be completely frivolous and misleading, and cannot be taken to be the same as the terms that applied years later, given that parking law and regulations had changed in the meantime (i.e. the POFA 2012 Schedule 4 about 'keeper liability' was enacted at the end of 2012 and the BPA Code of Practice was updated several times in the intervening years, especially regarding the rules on clear signage and the sections about the mandatory grace periods).
    Therefore, be advised that should you continue to pursue this, I shall seek to claim the costs of my defence and additional costs for unreasonable conduct pursuant to CPR Part 27(2)(g).
    This "drop hands" offer offer is available for acceptance for a period of 14 days from the date of this letter.
    The terms of the offer have value to the claimant insofar as the defendant will not seek his costs of defending the action, where recoverable and will not pursue any additional but related claim(s) in connection with this matter.

    Yours faithfully,
    • Keeboard
    • By Keeboard 23rd Apr 18, 12:43 PM
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    Keeboard
    Do i need to provide evidence of the images i mention? I am not home right now where the images are and I was thinking of sending the letter above across before I get home since it will be too late to post because the post office will be closed.
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 23rd Apr 18, 1:02 PM
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    nosferatu1001
    Or you coudl email it to them, i presume they have an email address you can use?

    Youre offering to settle on a drop hands basis.
    • Keeboard
    • By Keeboard 23rd Apr 18, 1:55 PM
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    Keeboard
    Possibly, I haven't checked whether they have provided an email address. Since all our communications have been through letters. Do you think it makes a difference if i should change communication type and send through email?

    Would the most recent draft posted above good enough to send?
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 23rd Apr 18, 1:59 PM
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    nosferatu1001
    Makes absolutely no difference.

    No, you need to check yoru typo. You are offering on a drop hands basis.
    • Keeboard
    • By Keeboard 23rd Apr 18, 3:06 PM
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    Keeboard
    Changed to offering on a drop hands BASIS.

    In that case, I will email them with my recent draft ("offering on a drop hands basis"), along with the images that I have mentioned in the letter.

    In terms of response from SCS, I know each case is different, but if they don't respond within 14 days what would my next step be? Wait for court dates to come through?

    I have noticed that many others on this forum have sent a "drop hands" and received no response, most probably left ignored. Should I start preparing witness statements and start gathering materials for court?
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 23rd Apr 18, 5:48 PM
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    nosferatu1001
    Being prepared here can't hurt you. Up to you what you do

    They're not bound by your offer, of course, or your timescales. This is all a game, and it's their decision to lay a claim or not.
    • Keeboard
    • By Keeboard 23rd Apr 18, 10:20 PM
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    Keeboard
    I sent the email to info@scs-law.co.uk. This is found in the letterhead along with the telephone number and address. Hopefully it reaches the relevant team.

    Would it be a good idea to send a paper copy along
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 23rd Apr 18, 10:37 PM
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    Umkomaas
    Would it be a good idea to send a paper copy along
    As a safety backup, no harm in doing so. First class stamp with free Certificate of Posting from your PO counter (not Signed For/Recorded Delivery).
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Keeboard
    • By Keeboard 15th May 18, 5:33 PM
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    • 7 Thanks
    Keeboard
    Hello Forum,

    An update from my last post. I have received a response from SCS; they are basically arguing against the points that i made on the 'drop hands' letter.

    They argue that there was sufficient signage displayed throughout the site so drivers are aware of the terms and conditions. They quoted me on my point of the pictures being blurry and you cannot read anything from the pictures. SCS provided a digital print out of the "alleged" signage that was at the site they are charging me at.

    Is it necessary to have pictures of the signage as evidence? If so, is it ok to use a more clearer digital printout as additional evidence to the blurry pictures of signage at site, even though its not clear from the blurry picture that the digital printout are the same one?

    They go on to say that the grace period of 10 minutes would have observed before a parking charge notice and photographs taken. The BPA Practice Code 2018 paragraph 13.2 states

    "If the parking location is one where parking is normally permitted, you must allow the driver a reasonable grace period in addition to the parking event before enforcement action is taken. In such instances the grace period must be a minimum of 10 minutes."

    So we have to just assume that they waited 10 minutes before taking action?

    Thanks
    • Redx
    • By Redx 15th May 18, 6:09 PM
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    Redx
    if your dad wishes to submit his own evidence to prove them wrong , he can do so in court, but their own evidence has to prove their own case, so if their signs pics are poor etc then use their evidence against them and he should point out their deficiencies every time

    question :- why are you , OR HE (or they) reading the BPA CoP version 7 when version 6 applies here as the contraventions occurred in 2016 ?

    for allowed parking there are 2 grace periods , one before parking and one after parking , together they can be construed as up to 21 minutes in total, so up to say 10 minutes before and a minimum of over 10 (say 11 minutes) after the parking period itself = 10 + 11 = 21

    so no you cannot assume that

    you can assume that they took the initial time of entry , then the actual time of departure (as recorded by the ANPR cameras) and subtracted the two times leaving them with a time on site

    then they subtract the allowed time from it and that gives them a total "overstay" which includes both the BEFORE and the AFTER added together

    the relevant CoP actually says this , for clarity

    13 Grace periods
    13.1 Your approach to parking management must allow a driver who enters your car park but decides not to park, to leave the car park within a reasonable period without having their vehicle issued with a parking charge notice.
    13.2 You should allow the driver a reasonable "grace period!" ; in which to decide if they are going to stay or go. If the driver is on your land without permission you should still allow them a grace period to read your signs and leave before you take enforcement action.
    13.3 You should be prepared to tell us the specific grace period at a site if our compliance team or our agents ask what it is.
    therefore you argue against their arguments and keep playing the "game" until they either put up or shut up

    ie , until an MCOL is issued or the 6 years time limit passes

    ps:- YOU have not received any response at all and they have argued against the points your dad made in HIS previous letter

    your DAD received this response unless he has named the driver , which page one says he hasnt done

    the words "ME , MYSELF & I" have no relevance here
    Last edited by Redx; 15-05-2018 at 6:58 PM.
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Keeboard
    • By Keeboard 17th May 18, 11:28 PM
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    • 7 Thanks
    Keeboard
    Hi Redx,

    Thanks for your response.

    On your comment on the poor pictures; is there any legislation or legal document that relates to the kind of evidence that can be used in court, or is that for the Judge?

    You're right! Rules have changed since 2016.

    After the parking period, when would a parking period exactly end?

    Yeah, when I say me or I, i meant my Dad, the registered keeper.

    i have to write a response by tomorrow, otherwise they will "issue proceedings".

    I will argue back but not throw my full argument and save that for court. I will post a draft here.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 17th May 18, 11:42 PM
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    Redx
    there has been info on signs etc posted on here , pepipoo and on parking pranksters website and I believe that the signs must be similar or conform to the ones used on public roads etc , but yes it is up to the judge in the end , apart from any higher rulings like the BEAVIS case

    like I said then , you should be arguing V6 of the BPA CoP , even if they are stupidly arguing V7 , which shows their lack of due diligence

    a parking period starts from when a vehicle "stops" and is "parked up" up until the engine is started, the handbrake is let off and the wheels start to turn , that seems obvious to me

    grace periods start on entry to private property up until the vehicle has "parked" , plus from when the vehicle is started up and the wheels turn to the moment the vehicle leaves the private property , meaning there are 3 time periods, the midle one is the parking period , the first and third are grace periods

    anpr captures a vehicle on entry and exit , so captures "time on site"

    I suggest you do not use the word I, but use the royal "WE" , seeing as its a family affair , so everything you do away from here is WE, as you seem to be doing the work in his name

    good luck
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Keeboard
    • By Keeboard 18th May 18, 8:44 PM
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    • 7 Thanks
    Keeboard
    Hi Redx,

    I'm finding it difficult to find any arguments against them.

    They say that "a grace period of 10 minutes have been observed at the site before a parking charge notice was issues and photographs taken".

    How can i argue against that?

    They also sent me a picture of the digital copy of the signage at the site, when the ACTUAL picture taken from the Parking Officers camera is blurry and unreadble. They have a digital copy of the "apparently" signage at site, can I accept that as evidence that this may be the same signage?

    Please help!
    • Redx
    • By Redx 18th May 18, 9:16 PM
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    • 22,954 Thanks
    Redx
    you cannot unless the driver had permission to be there, like payment , or free parking time , or a permit. on page 1 it states that NO PERMIT was on display despite the vehicle being parked on private land so the driver did not comply with the parking regime (not sure how you expect to argue against that scenario especially if the vehicle remained on site for longer than 10 minutes)

    I posted the grace periods that apply, if the person took longer than 10 minutes to say arrive , read the signs , and depart , then the 10 minutes allowed is in the BPA CoP, plus a reasonable time to leave

    once 10 minutes have elapsed they can decide to issue a parking charge notice if no permit was on display, be the vehicle parked for 10 minutes or 10 hours

    only you know the facts of why this charge came about, so you have to account for the time from entry to exit as being justified, then argue it (but sometimes there is no argument because they have followed procedures and the CoP and the driver had no right to be there AND/OR failed their rules in some other way)

    as for pictures and signage , you should always query them and never "accept" them as gospel

    the overriding precedent here is this

    they MUST prove their case as a claimant , or it fails

    a defendant should be putting them to strict proof , querying everything and accepting nothing
    Last edited by Redx; 18-05-2018 at 9:33 PM.
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
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