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  • FIRST POST
    • Chimichanga
    • By Chimichanga 16th Mar 18, 10:52 AM
    • 29Posts
    • 3Thanks
    Chimichanga
    LBCCC - Gladstones Solicitors
    • #1
    • 16th Mar 18, 10:52 AM
    LBCCC - Gladstones Solicitors 16th Mar 18 at 10:52 AM
    Hello helpers!
    I just wanted to double check that i'm doing the right thing, I would really appreciate your comments/advice.
    I have spent the last week reading everything I can possibly fit in to my brain on this forum about what to do...I'd like to give you a quick background to my situation if I may.
    My family and I were away for 6 weeks (28 Nov 2017- 10 Jan 2018) in New Zealand and during that time I received a PCN (£60 early repayment) dated 29th Nov 4 days after the alleged incident (25th Nov) from HX Car Park Management Ltd. Needless to say we didn't see this or the next 'Outstanding Parking Notice' (£100) dated 28 Dec until we returned home on on 10th Jan. I got another letter dated 12th Jan which was a 'Final Demand Notice' (£125). At this point I freaked out completely, as you do, checked my diary and saw that I was not even the driver since I was work 40 miles away that day. I immediately wrote a letter (dated 19th Jan) telling them that I was not the driver and could provide prof of this if required, gave them a copy of my flight tickets to show we were away and so couldn't respond to their letters and asked them to stop sending me letters of a threatening nature and posted it recorded delivery. Obviously I did not look at this amazing forum first (more fool me). I heard nothing for 2 months and then last week received an LBC from Gladstone Solicitors giving me 30 days to cough up the now £160! I have since looked at everything on here, including the Pre Action Protocol and have whittled down what I think I need to do now which is draft a letter similar to the one that I have seen here (sorry won't let me post a link as a newbie) by Loadsofchildren123. Is this the right thing to do? And may I post a copy of my drafted letter on here for you guys to check it's ok if you wouldn't mind that is?

    My brain is swimming with everything I have read and I can't decide what the next best course of action should be. Your help is greatly appreciated.
    Thanks!
Page 2
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 19th Mar 18, 6:40 PM
    • 60,110 Posts
    • 73,251 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    That response looks good.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Chimichanga
    • By Chimichanga 19th Mar 18, 8:07 PM
    • 29 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    Chimichanga
    Thanks CM

    Will get this in the post tomorrow. Should I also send a copy to HX?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 19th Mar 18, 8:13 PM
    • 60,110 Posts
    • 73,251 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    No, they are using Gladstones.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Chimichanga
    • By Chimichanga 20th Mar 18, 5:56 PM
    • 29 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    Chimichanga
    Have since been back to the car park to check the signage and meter etc

    There’s none t the entrance and the ones that are on display have tiny writing, all of which state several times that the driver is liable and that the keepers details may obtained from the DVLA.

    The meter itself has its own conditions on it! To top it all off, there’s a sign on the wall on the way out of the car park????!!!!!

    Crazy!
    • Chimichanga
    • By Chimichanga 12th Apr 18, 10:44 AM
    • 29 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    Chimichanga
    Reply received...
    We have had a reply from Gladdy’s today.

    They have dated the letter 5th April and given 30 days to respond, the letter was only delivered today a whole week after the letters date!!! !!!128545;

    Anyway. They have not included anything that was requested in the above letter but merely state that their LBCCC is ‘compliant with the most up to date version of the Practice Direction for Pre-Action Protocol and a such you will not be issued with an amended copy’.

    What do I do now? Do we re-request the docs again or sit tight and wait for the Claim form?

    TIA
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 12th Apr 18, 10:53 AM
    • 18,949 Posts
    • 29,829 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    What do I do now? Do we re-request the docs again or sit tight and wait for the Claim form?
    You list everything which you are entitled to a copy of that you've not so far received, and require them to provide you with copies, as per the PaP.

    Failure on their part to provide any of the above will be regarded as unreasonable and will support you when you apply to the court for your costs, including an element for 'unreasonable behaviour' on their part.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Castle
    • By Castle 12th Apr 18, 10:55 AM
    • 1,872 Posts
    • 2,539 Thanks
    Castle

    What do I do now? Do we re-request the docs again or sit tight and wait for the Claim form?

    TIA
    Originally posted by Chimichanga
    Refer them to Para 5.2:-
    https://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure-rules/civil/pdf/protocols/pre-action-protocol-for-debt-claims.pdf
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 12th Apr 18, 1:24 PM
    • 8,707 Posts
    • 8,620 Thanks
    KeithP
    ...state that their LBCCC is 'compliant with the most up to date version of the Practice Direction for Pre-Action Protocol and a such you will not be issued with an amended copy'.
    Unfortunately your LBC response made no mention of The Pre-Action Protocol for Debt Claims introduced on 1st October 2017, and it is that they have failed to comply with.
    Last edited by KeithP; 12-04-2018 at 2:17 PM.
    .
    • Chimichanga
    • By Chimichanga 12th Apr 18, 2:06 PM
    • 29 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    Chimichanga
    !!!8216;This action on the part of your client is a clear breach of its pre-action obligations set out in the Practice Direction - Pre-Action Conduct.....!!!8217;
    Thought this paragraph covered that KeithP?

    Since it works in my favour that they haven!!!8217;t given me the information I requested should I not just sit tight and wait for the claim form (draft defence in the meantime) ? The fact that they haven!!!8217;t complied works in my favour, no?

    Also would now be a good time to write To the SRA?
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 12th Apr 18, 2:10 PM
    • 18,949 Posts
    • 29,829 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    Please switch off your 'Smart Punctuation' on your iPhone/iPad to avoid the littering of your posts with !!!!8820; and the like, as every apostrophe and some other punctuations convert to exclamation marks and numbers.

    Go to 'General' > 'Keyboard' > 'Smart Punctuation' and flick the switch off.

    Switching off seems to have no detrimental affect on any other use of the keyboard.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 12th Apr 18, 2:21 PM
    • 3,140 Posts
    • 3,855 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    It doesnt work that much in your favour. the claim is still valid, just you may get more costs.
    So no, youre told to respond, so respond.
    • Chimichanga
    • By Chimichanga 12th Apr 18, 2:53 PM
    • 29 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    Chimichanga
    Thanks nosferatu1001. I’m happy to do that. Should I re-request all the information that We’re entitled to. Or just a brief letter stating that they haven’t given anything that was requested are being unreasonable and that any action will be vigorously defended?
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 12th Apr 18, 2:57 PM
    • 3,140 Posts
    • 3,855 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    Be explicit on the info you require, and that this is your second request for it.
    • Chimichanga
    • By Chimichanga 12th Apr 18, 4:48 PM
    • 29 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    Chimichanga
    Second LBC Response Letter
    Gladstones Solicitors
    The Terrace,
    High Leigh Park Golf Club
    Warrington Road
    Knutsford
    Cheshire
    WA16 6AA

    12th April 2018

    Your Ref: xxxx

    Dear Sirs,

    I received your letter today dated 5th April, Thank you.

    Unfortunately your original Letter Before Claim did not meet PAP for Debt Claims as you stated. I see that you have now, however, included the forms from Annex 1 and 2 of the PAP for Debt Claims in this letter.

    You have still not provided any of the details and information which was requested in my response letter to your original Letter Before Claim (copy enclosed). This is information to which I am clearly entitled. Your letter lacks specificity and breaches the requirements of the Pre-Action Protocol for Debt Claims (paragraphs 3.1(a)-(d), 5.1 and 5.2. Your client must not issue proceedings without complying with that protocol. I reserve the right to draw any failure of the Claimant to comply with the protocol to the attention of the court and to ask the court to stay the claim and order your client to comply with its pre-action obligations, and when costs come to be considered. Please treat this letter as another formal request for all of the documents / information that the protocol now requires your client to provide. Please also supply the following, this is now my second request (as per the original request):

    1. an explanation of the cause of action
    2. whether they are pursuing me as driver or keeper
    3. whether they are relying on the provisions of Schedule 4 of POFA 2012
    4. what the details of the claim are (where it is claimed the car was parked, for how long, how the monies being claimed arose and have been calculated, what contractual breach (if any) is being claimed)
    5. a copy of the contract with the landowner under which they assert authority to bring the claim
    6. a copy of any alleged contract with the driver
    7. a plan showing where any signs were displayed
    8. details of the signs displayed (size of sign, size of font, height at which displayed)
    9. If they have added anything on to the original charge, what that represents and how it has been calculated.
    10. All photographic evidence showing where the car was parked when the (alleged) breach was made.
    11. Images of the time displayed on the P&D machine at the material time.
    12. Evidence that the time on the machine was correctly synchronised with GMT.
    13. Details of the amount that was paid and the length of overstay (as these details were not in the Notice To Keeper) and so does not meet the POFA 2012 on this basis.

    In addition to the above I would like to request any other documents your client will be relying on in Court.

    I am clearly entitled to this information under the PAP paragraph 5.2 and you have so far failed to supply anything requested.
    You also quote the case Elliott v Loake 1983 in the FAQ section of your letter and state that you !!!8216;will invite the court to conclude!!!8217; that the registered keeper was the driver at the time of the (alleged) breach. Unfortunately this case law does not support your view. This is an incorrect representation of the case for the following reasons:
    The facts of the case are that the appeal judge ruled that the appellant was the driver because of the ample evidence that he was the driver, and not because of the lack of evidence as to who the driver actually was.
    In the case there was ample evidence that justified the magistrates to conclude that this man was driving his blue sports car on the night when it collided with the stationary car.
    Additionally, a crucial part of the case was that forensic evidence showed that the appellant lied. Other material facts were that the driver had the only keys in his possession that night and that no-one else had permission to drive the car.
    This case does not therefore introduce any binding legal principal as this case turned on its own facts. If any principle can be adduced, it is the well known principle that once a witness has been proven to have lied in one respect, it is likely that their evidence elsewhere is also false.
    You are causing a great deal of stress and inconvenience and are intentionally wasting more of my valuable time pursuing a claim which has no merit and indeed claiming monies which you are clearly not entitled to by using the threat of court action. Many hours have been spent researching legislation, constructing letters and driving to post said letters, not to mention the costs incurred in doing all of the above and more. The stress you are inflicting is causing a great deal of disruption to our family and is having a detrimental effect on my working life.
    Since you have thus far failed to comply with the Practice Direction I am left with no alternative than to make a referral to the Solicitors Regulation Authority for breach of the Principles contained in the SRA Handbook. This is a further cost on my time.

    Again, I would urge you to respond in accordance with the Practice Direction - PAP for Debt Claims. This is my second request. Your failure to so makes it entirely impossible for me to comply with my own obligations. This makes a mockery of the obligation or indeed opportunity to !!!8216;take stock!!!8217; of each other!!!8217;s positions!

    I await your prompt reply.

    Yours faithfully,

    Have I missed anything out?
    Also they have included a form which they want completing and returning in response to their latest LBC. Does that form need completing and sending back with the above letter?

    Thanks
    Last edited by Chimichanga; 12-04-2018 at 4:54 PM. Reason: missed off a question
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 12th Apr 18, 5:06 PM
    • 9,968 Posts
    • 9,765 Thanks
    The Deep
    You might also mention that a Member of parliament has also complained to the SRA about their failure to issue compliant claims,

    http://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/2f0384f2-eba5-4fff-ab07-cf24b6a22918?in=12:49:41

    a fact about which they must be aware, and that if this gets to court you will be asking for unreasonable behaviour costs under CPR27.14(2)(g).

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=74151888#post74151888
    Last edited by The Deep; 12-04-2018 at 5:14 PM.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • Chimichanga
    • By Chimichanga 12th Apr 18, 5:58 PM
    • 29 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    Chimichanga
    Letter to SRA
    Dear Sirs,

    I wish to bring to your attention the now notorious Gladstones Solicitors one of several firms of solicitors whom I believe are acting unethically, and bringing the solicitors’ profession into disrepute.

    I believe this firm is in breach of the Principles and Code of Conduct as outlined in the SRA Handbook.

    This firm acts for Private Parking Companies, many of whom use threatening tactics unlawful means, and deceit to obtain monies to which they have no entitlement.

    There is also widespread concern about the IAS, the adjudication service owned and operated by Gladstones. Their adjudications are unsigned, perverse, and unfair.

    There has been a spate of claims recently against registered keepers for events which took place before POFA introduced keeper liability. Elliott v Loake is often quoted. This was a criminal case involving a hit and run, false statements made to the police, and forensic evidence, what has this to do with private car parks?

    All of this is well documented on the internet on Money Saving Expert, Pepipoo, Legal Beagles, The No to Mob, The Parking Prankster, Consumer Action Group, and many more.

    The PPCs are not acting in the public interest and often in defiance of the will of Parliament. They are causing severe distress to the victims, many of whom are not aware of the legislation that protects them against the unlawful pursuit of such firms as Gladstones. People are paying these ‘ransoms’ out of fear of being prosecuted when in fact if they were aware of all their rights they would be inclined to defend themselves more vehemently! Indeed Gladstone’s are deliberately misleading ‘victims’ to gain unwarranted financial reward.

    It is highly unfortunate that the Solicitors profession is being made a mockery of. The likes of Gladstones are pulling the profession into disrepute.

    I sincerely hope that the SRA will take this matter seriously and investigate the actions of Gladstones and their like.


    Yours faithfully

    In case anyone else wants to send a complaint letter in thought I'd share the one i'm sending in.
    • Chimichanga
    • By Chimichanga 13th Apr 18, 9:08 AM
    • 29 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    Chimichanga
    Morning folks. Just wondering if anyone could take a quick look at the letter to Gladstone's above please? Also wondering if I need to complete the forms they have sent with their recent letter or should I just send the letter?

    Any advice welcome. Thank you!
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 13th Apr 18, 9:14 AM
    • 9,968 Posts
    • 9,765 Thanks
    The Deep
    That is very similar in tone to one I wrote over a year ago. They will investigate and find that these chaps are thoroughly good eggs.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 13th Apr 18, 9:51 AM
    • 18,949 Posts
    • 29,829 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    In addition to the above I would like to request any other documents your client will be relying on in Court.
    Far too polite.

    'In order to narrow the issues, I require copies of all documents your client will be relying on in Court, as is a Defendant's right under the Pre-Action Protocol for Debt Claims'.

    The rest looks ok to me - but I'm not the expert on this stuff. Very few of us are.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Le_Kirk
    • By Le_Kirk 13th Apr 18, 9:59 AM
    • 3,008 Posts
    • 1,874 Thanks
    Le_Kirk
    Your failure to so makes it entirely impossible for me to comply with my own obligations.
    Your failure to do so.............
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