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  • FIRST POST
    • Ashleighjeeves
    • By Ashleighjeeves 14th Mar 18, 7:42 PM
    • 6Posts
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    Ashleighjeeves
    Help! Section 21 notice and tenant rights
    • #1
    • 14th Mar 18, 7:42 PM
    Help! Section 21 notice and tenant rights 14th Mar 18 at 7:42 PM
    Hi all,

    I am currently on a rolling contract with my landlord as my original agreement expired on the 3rd of October.

    I pay my rent on the 3rd of every month and on the 8 of this month (a couple of days after paying my advanced rental payment) I was served with a section 31 notice that detailed I was required to leave by the 14th of May.

    I have found somewhere else to live and tried to give my one months notice (as per my tenancy agreement) on the 12th of this month and offered to pay rent owed for the 3rd to the 12th of April. However my landlord first off told my lettings agent it was out of order and I should honour his two months and leave bang on the 14th... then he came back to the lettings agent and said because I hadnít given my notice on the rent payment day it wasnít valid. Basically snookering me into staying for his two months as I now canít give notice until the 3rd of April, taking me through to the 3rd of may. I have tried to be reasonable with him and explained that I have found somewhere else to live but he is adamant that I am to stay for two months. Can anyone help me? It point me in the right direction? If I canít move into the new place within a month I lose it. I also have a two week holiday booked for the end of April to the beginning of May which is unfortunate timing as, if I am unable to uphold my notice then I will be essentially coming back from holiday to no where to live.

    Any help or advice is appreciated.
Page 1
    • anselld
    • By anselld 14th Mar 18, 8:04 PM
    • 5,722 Posts
    • 5,386 Thanks
    anselld
    • #2
    • 14th Mar 18, 8:04 PM
    • #2
    • 14th Mar 18, 8:04 PM
    You can still give notice to leave on 3rd May.
    You can still move into the new place 12th April if you can afford the overlap.
    Anything else is down to negotiation, bearing in mind the current L will presumably wish some co-operation for viewings or may find a T wishing to move in quickly.
    • conavar1903
    • By conavar1903 14th Mar 18, 8:11 PM
    • 13 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    conavar1903
    • #3
    • 14th Mar 18, 8:11 PM
    • #3
    • 14th Mar 18, 8:11 PM
    Hi all,

    I am currently on a rolling contract with my landlord as my original agreement expired on the 3rd of October.

    I pay my rent on the 3rd of every month and on the 8 of this month (a couple of days after paying my advanced rental payment) I was served with a section 31 notice that detailed I was required to leave by the 14th of May.

    I have found somewhere else to live and tried to give my one months notice (as per my tenancy agreement) on the 12th of this month and offered to pay rent owed for the 3rd to the 12th of April. However my landlord first off told my lettings agent it was out of order and I should honour his two months and leave bang on the 14th... then he came back to the lettings agent and said because I hadnít given my notice on the rent payment day it wasnít valid. Basically snookering me into staying for his two months as I now canít give notice until the 3rd of April, taking me through to the 3rd of may. I have tried to be reasonable with him and explained that I have found somewhere else to live but he is adamant that I am to stay for two months. Can anyone help me? It point me in the right direction? If I canít move into the new place within a month I lose it. I also have a two week holiday booked for the end of April to the beginning of May which is unfortunate timing as, if I am unable to uphold my notice then I will be essentially coming back from holiday to no where to live.

    Any help or advice is appreciated.
    Originally posted by Ashleighjeeves
    Tell the LL to get lost. You have given your notice. Move into your new place when you have agreed and let him chase you for anything outstanding.
    It's time this country started to properly protect tenants. Everything is stacked in the property owners favour.
    • Pixie5740
    • By Pixie5740 14th Mar 18, 8:12 PM
    • 12,114 Posts
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    Pixie5740
    • #4
    • 14th Mar 18, 8:12 PM
    • #4
    • 14th Mar 18, 8:12 PM
    Your landlord is talking rubbish. 1) His notice does not end the tenancy. 2) You are perfectly within your rights to serve your own notice. In fact as his notice doesn't end the tenancy you should serve your own notice.

    Your notice must align with your tenancy periods, assuming it's a statutory periodic tenancy that you have, which means it's the date your tenancy started that's important and not the date you pay rent.

    See G_M's guide to Ending/Renewing an AST for further information.
    • kev25v6
    • By kev25v6 14th Mar 18, 8:13 PM
    • 168 Posts
    • 103 Thanks
    kev25v6
    • #5
    • 14th Mar 18, 8:13 PM
    • #5
    • 14th Mar 18, 8:13 PM
    I!!!8217;d tell him to agree to your date amicably or he can see you in court in around 6 months time to have you removed by bayliffs.
    • Ashleighjeeves
    • By Ashleighjeeves 14th Mar 18, 8:55 PM
    • 6 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Ashleighjeeves
    • #6
    • 14th Mar 18, 8:55 PM
    • #6
    • 14th Mar 18, 8:55 PM
    I just worry that because he has rejected my notice, that he will then withhold my deposit? Is he allowed to reject a notice to leave?
    • Ashleighjeeves
    • By Ashleighjeeves 14th Mar 18, 8:56 PM
    • 6 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Ashleighjeeves
    • #7
    • 14th Mar 18, 8:56 PM
    • #7
    • 14th Mar 18, 8:56 PM
    The date my tenancy started is the same day as my rent is due. It started on the 3rd of October 2016 and I pay my rent every month on the 3rd
    • G_M
    • By G_M 14th Mar 18, 9:20 PM
    • 44,114 Posts
    • 52,303 Thanks
    G_M
    • #8
    • 14th Mar 18, 9:20 PM
    • #8
    • 14th Mar 18, 9:20 PM
    The date my tenancy started is the same day as my rent is due. It started on the 3rd of October 2016 and I pay my rent every month on the 3rd
    Originally posted by Ashleighjeeves
    1) your tenancy periods run from 3rd to 2nd of each month

    2) you now have either a SPT or a CPT - see the link in pixie's post 4 above. Which? It makes a difference!

    3) you must serve valid notice before you leave, whether on the LL's preferred date or your own

    4) Until you answer 2) above, no one here can tell you if your notice is valid or not.

    * Ending/renewing an AST: what happens when a fixed term ends? How can a LL or tenant end a tenancy? What is a periodic tenancy?
    • bowlhead99
    • By bowlhead99 14th Mar 18, 9:34 PM
    • 7,837 Posts
    • 14,311 Thanks
    bowlhead99
    • #9
    • 14th Mar 18, 9:34 PM
    • #9
    • 14th Mar 18, 9:34 PM
    The date my tenancy started is the same day as my rent is due. It started on the 3rd of October 2016 and I pay my rent every month on the 3rd
    Originally posted by Ashleighjeeves
    So, your rental periods start on the third of a month. And you need to give one full rental period's notice if you're in a rolling statutory periodic tenancy after the end of your assured tenancy. If you don't know if you're in a statutory periodic tenancy or a contractual periodic tenancy, follow the link.

    So, unfortunately, if you're on a rolling statutory periodic tenancy you can't just decide you want to tell him in the middle of March that you want to leave in the middle of April. That doesn't give one full clear rental period. It gives a bit of the March period and a bit of the April period.

    As you don't have the ability to give notice of less than one full rental period, and you've already started the March rental period, the quickest you can stop paying rent is to give notice before the April rent period starts, to say that April will be your last full rental period.

    So as someone up the thread said, you can certainly serve notice to say that you want the tenancy to stop before 3 May (paying for the whole rental period which commences 3 April).

    You obviously don't have to physically be in the property until early May. If you found somewhere you like, you could just move into it tomorrow. As in, you could physically do it. But you would still be bound by the current contract which you can't get out of until you've gone through the full next rental period after serving notice. He's right that he can reject your notice which doesn't give a full rental period of notice.

    Pixie above is right that the landlord notice doesn't stop the tenancy. It's just notice to say that if you don't vacate by the date he picked in May, he might start court proceedings to get you out. Which might take another six months. So you're totally within your rights to say, ok, you want me out by mid may, I'll give you *my* notice saying I'm ending the tenancy before 3 May, I do not want to be in the property for any part of the rental period commencing 3 May, and an giving you the full required notice of the full rental period commencing 3 April.

    But what you can't do is say in mid March, ok I'm leaving in mid April and not paying beyond that. You can physically leave in mid April, but you can't stop paying for the days after that unless both you and the landlord consent to end the tenancy earlier than the contract (your month to month contract, in "one month chunks which always start on 3rd of a month") allows.
    Last edited by bowlhead99; 14-03-2018 at 9:40 PM.
    • Ashleighjeeves
    • By Ashleighjeeves 14th Mar 18, 9:46 PM
    • 6 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Ashleighjeeves
    Hi, my contract is currently an SPT, there was no additional paperwork after the initial agreement expired. Is it fair of the landlord to issue notice two days after Iíve paid my rent then? Because that essentially would mean that you canít give your one month notice during a section 21 if the landlord waits until just after your rent payment?

    Iíve also found online that his sections 21 notice should have an end date that is reflective of the current rent schedule. So if my notice to him would be say April 3rd to May 3rd, should his section 21 not end on the 3rd of a month as opposed to the 14th, which is what it states?

    The letting agent has said that for whatever reason, the landlord is intentionally making this more difficult than it has to be for all parties involved. I appreciate the help and advice given here.
    • G_M
    • By G_M 14th Mar 18, 9:58 PM
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    G_M
    Hi, my contract is currently an SPT, there was no additional paperwork after the initial agreement expired.
    That does not make it a SPT. What does your original tenancy agreement say? Have you read the link?

    Is it fair of the landlord to issue notice two days after I!!!8217;ve paid my rent then?
    Fair? Matter of opinion.
    Legal? He can serve a S21 at any time.

    Because that essentially would mean that you can!!!8217;t give your one monthtenancy period notice during a section 21 if the landlord waits until just after your rent payment?
    * depends if a SPT or CPT.
    * if SPT, more or less right, yes.

    I!!!8217;ve also found online that his sections 21 notice should have an end date that is reflective of the current rent schedule.
    No. Provided he used the correct form, 2 calender months is valid.
    The law has changed a number of times - where on the internet did you look?

    So if my notice to him would be say April 3rd to May 3rd,
    3rd April to 2nd May

    should his section 21 not end on the 3rd of a month as opposed to the 14th, which is what it states?
    His S21 must expire on or after two calender months from the date of service. The tenancy periods are irrelevant (in most cases).

    The letting agent has said that for whatever reason, the landlord is intentionally making this more difficult than it has to be for all parties involved. I appreciate the help and advice given here.
    Originally posted by Ashleighjeeves
    Read the link again.

    If you want to check if his S21 is valid, go through this:

    S21 checklist (Is a S21 valid?)
    Last edited by G_M; 14-03-2018 at 10:01 PM.
    • Ashleighjeeves
    • By Ashleighjeeves 14th Mar 18, 10:05 PM
    • 6 Posts
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    Ashleighjeeves
    My tenancy agreement doesn!!!8217;t specify what kind of agreement it goes over to, it says !!!8220;if the tenant decides to terminate the contract after the appointed term has finished, they must give 4 weeks notice from the day the contract started.
    I!!!8217;ve read the link and still don!!!8217;t understand what mine is then?
    And I!!!8217;ve checked the validity of my section 21 and apart from the deposit info being emailed to me two days later, everything else seems to be in order. So if I were to move on the date specified by the LL (14/5) that would mean I need to pay and odd 11 days of rent. This is why it made sense when I read on the shelter website that it should be reflective of the rent schedule.
    • G_M
    • By G_M 14th Mar 18, 10:18 PM
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    G_M
    My tenancy agreement doesn!!!8217;t specify what kind of agreement it goes over to, it says !!!8220;
    Then it's probably a SPT. But see below!

    if the tenant decides to terminate the contract after the appointed term has finished, they must give 4 weeks notice from the day the contract started.

    On the one hand this suggests you have a CPT and 4 weeks notice is required.
    On the other hand '
    from the day the contract started' makes no sense at all.

    Please quote wording in full.

    I!!!8217;ve read the link and still don!!!8217;t understand what mine is then?
    Possibly because your contract is poorly worded.

    Please quote.

    And I!!!8217;ve checked the validity of my section 21 and apart from the deposit info being emailed to me two days later, everything else seems to be in order.
    Please explain "two days later". Later than what? The 30 day deadline? If so, the S2 is invalid.

    So if I were to move on the date specified by the LL (14/5) that would mean I need to pay and odd 11 days of rent. This is why it made sense when I read on the shelter website that it should be reflective of the rent schedule.
    Originally posted by Ashleighjeeves
    If you move out on the date the LL requests, and have paid additional rent, the LL must refund any rent overpaid on a pro rata basis.

    See section 40 of the Deregulation Act 2015 here.
    Last edited by G_M; 14-03-2018 at 10:21 PM.
    • Ashleighjeeves
    • By Ashleighjeeves 15th Mar 18, 10:25 AM
    • 6 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Ashleighjeeves
    Unfortunately that is the exact wording of my tenancy agreement. Iíd send you a pic but I honestly donít know how to post a picture on here. Thatís the full wording of the paragraph relating to termination of the tenancybon part of the tenant.

    The deposit information was sent to me two days after I received my section 21 notice.
    • saajan_12
    • By saajan_12 15th Mar 18, 12:44 PM
    • 1,228 Posts
    • 853 Thanks
    saajan_12
    Hi all,

    I am currently on a rolling contract with my landlord as my original agreement expired on the 3rd of October.

    I pay my rent on the 3rd of every month and on the 8 of this month (a couple of days after paying my advanced rental payment) I was served with a section 31 notice that detailed I was required to leave by the 14th of May. - Section 21 notice presumably? Theres a long checklist to ensure its valid - make sure it is before worrying about it.

    I have found somewhere else to live and tried to give my one months notice (as per my tenancy agreement) - what exactly is "per" your tenancy agreement? Please quote any clauses about what happens after the fixed term. If nothing is mentioned, you're on a SPT and its one tenancy period, not one month. on the 12th of this month and offered to pay rent owed for the 3rd to the 12th of April. - If SPT, this is invalid. Rent payments are indivisible so you can't pay the rent for a few days. However my landlord first off told my lettings agent it was out of order and I should honour his two months and leave bang on the 14th... - he might want that, but doesn't have the right to demand that. You can serve your own VALID notice to expire before 14th, or remain after the 14th until he goes to court etc. then he came back to the lettings agent and said because I hadn!!!8217;t given my notice on the rent payment day it wasn!!!8217;t valid. - correct, its not valid, the earliest notice expiry is 2nd May providing you serve it on / before 3rd April. Basically snookering me into staying for his two months - No, basically holding you to statutory law (assuming SPT) that valid notice from tenant must be in line with tenancy periods. And its 1.5months, not 2 months. as I now can!!!8217;t give notice until the 3rd of April, taking me through to the 3rd of may. I have tried to be reasonable with him and explained that I have found somewhere else to live but he is adamant that I am to stay for two months. Can anyone help me? It point me in the right direction? -
    yes, read and quote in full, any clauses in your contract referring to periodic tenancies / what happens after your fixed term. Then serve valid notice in line with that or negotiate something different with your LL.
    If I can!!!8217;t move into the new place within a month I lose it. So if you can afford the overlap, move into the new place early and pay an extra 2 weeks rent upto 2nd May on this place per your SPT. If you can't afford the overlap, then remain where you are and look for somewhere else - shouldn't be too difficult as you found this place within a few days. I also have a two week holiday booked for the end of April to the beginning of May which is unfortunate timing as, if I am unable to uphold my notice then I will be essentially coming back from holiday to no where to live.

    Any help or advice is appreciated.
    Originally posted by Ashleighjeeves
    Tell the LL to get lost. You have given your notice. - yes, but this may be invalid if he is indeed on a SPT as OP indicates. Move into your new place when you have agreed and let him chase you for anything outstanding. - LL presumably has a deposit from which he can deduct half a months rent easily and legitimately, plus any late fees agreed in the contract.
    It's time this country started to properly protect tenants. Everything is stacked in the property owners favour.
    Originally posted by conavar1903
    So in the issue of notice, the tenant has to give 1 tenancy period notice (ie anywhere between 1 cal month and 2 cal months depending on where in the period you are). The Landlord has to give 2 calendar months notice + go to court + wait for possession order to expire + apply for bailiffs + wait for them to visit and evict the tenant. How exactly is that in the owner's favour?

    I just worry that because he has rejected my notice, that he will then withhold my deposit? - He is legally allowed to withhold money to cover the outstanding rent (plus any agreed late fees etc). Is he allowed to reject a notice to leave?- Its not about rejecting / accepting, you haven't served a valid notice (assuming SPT).
    Originally posted by Ashleighjeeves
    The key is whether you are on a CPT or SPT. The bits you have quoted are unclear - please quote the entire section on periodic tenancy / what happens after the fixed term verbatim.

    IF SPT then your notice must be in line with tenancy periods ie served by 3rd, expire 2nd of next month. So far you've served invalid notice.

    IF CPT then your notice is according to that - need the exact terms to confirm what you've sent is valid.

    You can serve valid notice before or after the LL's date of 14th May. You only have to leave when you receive a possession order from the court and bailiffs evict you, though you may have to cover the LL's cost for these.
    • G_M
    • By G_M 15th Mar 18, 1:14 PM
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    G_M
    So the tenancy agreement says:

    "if the tenant decides to terminate the contract after the appointed term has finished, they must give 4 weeks notice from the day the contract started."

    Where is this? Is it a sub-clause within a larger section? If so, what is the section heading?

    The implication is that following the end of the fixed term, a CPT arises, which can be ended with 4 weeks notice. This is shorter than the notice required by a SPT.

    But as the clause is so meaningles it can prrobably be disregarded, so in the absence of any other clauses stating what happens afteer the end of the fixed term, a SPT will arise.

    (meanngless since the contract started on 3rd Oct 2016. 4 weeks from then would be 31st Oct 2016!)

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