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  • FIRST POST
    • bobwilson
    • By bobwilson 14th Mar 18, 5:58 PM
    • 425Posts
    • 113Thanks
    bobwilson
    John lewis refusing refund under distance sel regs
    • #1
    • 14th Mar 18, 5:58 PM
    John lewis refusing refund under distance sel regs 14th Mar 18 at 5:58 PM
    Hi,

    I've not been in this position with a reputable company like John Lewis before, so I'm somewhat surprised by this. I bought a washing machine from John Lewis online, and it arrived last night. It was installed by the John Lewis men.

    However, this morning I noticed when I put my first wash on that the soap drawer leaked water down the front of the machine during wash cycles.

    I've owned a machine of this model before and it never behaved like this, so I know it's faulty. I called JL for a replacement or refund, but to my surprise they insisted on me calling Bosch & sending out an engineer to come and look at it in 8 days time. JL told me it's to establish "who is to blame".

    I mentioned about the 14 day distance selling regs, and how I don't want the hassle of waiting 8 days for an engineer to come out, but JL insisted it was my only option. They refused to refund or replace without seeing the results from the Bosch engineer.

    I explained this goes against the distance selling regs, but they wouldn't listen to me (in fact, many staff at JL were outrageously rude & one even refused to let me speak to a supervisor then hung up on me).

    I was so shocked & appalled as this is John Lewis, not some disreputable online shop.

    Has their customer service gone down hill in recent years, or am I wrong to expect a refund or replacement without an engineer visit? I've no idea what my next step is but I've already spent around 4 hours on the phone/on hold & really want to avoid any hassle as I'm in the middle of moving house & managing refurbishments.

    I tried citizen's advice charity but couldn't get through to them, I guess they're quite busy.
Page 2
    • Manxman in exile
    • By Manxman in exile 15th Mar 18, 4:40 PM
    • 1,485 Posts
    • 1,128 Thanks
    Manxman in exile
    We bought a Bosch from JL three years ago. It arrived after 8pm and wasn't levelled properly when installed.


    When we realised, we called JL and someone came out the next day to do the job properly. No problem.


    I understand what JL are doing here, but I wouldn't want to have to wait 8 days for a Bosch engineer to come out to confirm a fault. I would hope JL could send someone out to determine if it's leaking or not.


    But I appreciate that may not be the legal position.


    PS it's got dent in the casing too, but doesn't affect its operation.
    • macman
    • By macman 16th Mar 18, 12:24 PM
    • 42,209 Posts
    • 17,620 Thanks
    macman
    Why on earth do you expect an instant replacement for what sounds like a minor fault? There's clearly a blockage in the channel from dispenser tray to the tub, probably fixable by the engineer in a few minutes. And no retailer is going to pay for the uplift and replacement of a machine without verifying first that it's actually faulty.
    No free lunch, and no free laptop
    • sheramber
    • By sheramber 16th Mar 18, 8:33 PM
    • 4,964 Posts
    • 3,717 Thanks
    sheramber
    The 14 days is for change of mind and you must not have used the item any more than you would have done if viewing it in the showroom..
    You have used the machine therefore cannot use that.

    You are dealing with a faulty item
    • bobwilson
    • By bobwilson 10th Apr 18, 9:37 AM
    • 425 Posts
    • 113 Thanks
    bobwilson
    Why on earth do you expect an instant replacement for what sounds like a minor fault? There's clearly a blockage in the channel from dispenser tray to the tub, probably fixable by the engineer in a few minutes.
    Originally posted by macman
    Goodness! "Clearly" huh? I had no idea anyone had psychic skills in real life- you should charge a fee! Wait, could it be per chance that you have skills in presumptuousness? Let's see! Is there "clearly a blockage in the channel from the dispenser tray to the tub"? No. Did the engineer fix it in a few minutes? No. Perhaps your post should have read "I personally wouldn't expect a replacement unless it's a major fault but that's just my opinion. I appreciate you might not be a washing machine engineer, but it sounds like there might be a blockage between the dispenser tray and the tub. Then again, I could be wrong on this as well as I haven't seen your machine. Sorry I can't offer more productive help" . But nope, you had to say "Why on earth do you expect.... clearly a blockage...", thus getting my back up in defence of your attitude.
    • neilmcl
    • By neilmcl 10th Apr 18, 9:41 AM
    • 11,411 Posts
    • 8,194 Thanks
    neilmcl
    So what exactly was the issue and has it been resolved?
    • bobwilson
    • By bobwilson 10th Apr 18, 9:59 AM
    • 425 Posts
    • 113 Thanks
    bobwilson
    Bob seems like one of those people that claims to understand consumer rights but doesnt.

    law should pander to him and not cause him any hassle.

    but the reality is, you could be doing something wrong, you could have damaged it, you could be to blame.

    dont think you are entitled to what ever you demand.

    cry about it.

    Grow up, let the process be and move on... at the end of it, no matter which path they take, you will get a fully functioning machine
    Originally posted by reason2
    Goodness! What a pleasant reply. You certainly know how to word things in an amicable way. You must be such fun at dinner gatherings! So let's see.. if I claimed to understand consumer rights, I wouldn't be on here asking the question. I don't believe anyone or anything should "pander" to me, but I do believe in basic respect & politeness toward people, even if they don't know their legal rights. I haven't done anything wrong & haven't damaged the machine. I don't think I'm entitled to whatever I demand. Thank you for your concern, but I'm not crying. Thanks for telling me to grow up, I will certainly do my best. "At the end of it you will get a fully functioning machine".. but at the end of what? 6 months & several days off work trying to arrange & wait in for engineer visits? Don't forget this is a brand new machine, not a refurbished one from ebay. I feel your opinion could have been put forward in a manner with less attitude & more emphasis on facts- perhaps then I wouldn't have written this defensive reply, which also isn't productive.

    MSE forum is an important part of the internet as it helps people to know their rights among other things. I know of many people who no longer use this forum because they think it's "gone down hill"- and someone else said it's become "cliquey"- I've read so many threads here where people are under similar attack from forum regulars. To you it may be banter, but please mind your words & go slow.. you have no idea who you're talking to or what they've been through in their lives. Words can affect people, even online.

    I've been a member here for years. I hope MSE stays a productive place because if these types of attacks continue & the moderators tolerate it then like so many others, I will end up going elsewhere. (and yes, I can predict the responses "Good riddance!...you're just a cry baby.. we don't want ignorant self-entitled people like you who don't listen, on here anyway"... "perhaps you're the one who needs to consider how you speak to people, not the rest of us" etc.).

    I actually came here to post an update about the situation. I can't go through every personal-attack or unpleasant reply on here because there are so many, but suffice it to say if this continues, you can count me out.
    Last edited by bobwilson; 10-04-2018 at 10:19 AM.
    • k3lvc
    • By k3lvc 10th Apr 18, 10:10 AM
    • 2,338 Posts
    • 3,871 Thanks
    k3lvc
    So we still know more details about your hurt feelings on here than the resolution of your machine problem.


    And you wonder why people aren't tripping over themselves to offer further advice
    • Gavin83
    • By Gavin83 10th Apr 18, 10:41 AM
    • 5,251 Posts
    • 8,595 Thanks
    Gavin83
    I'm sure you'll dismiss me as an 'unpleasant reply' but as someone who's only just come across this topic you don't come across well at all. I obviously can't comment on what you're like in person (like some have) but on this thread at least you've demonstrated a really bad attitude. It does get my back up when people ask for help and then post the type of rude responses you have.

    And as an extra nail in the coffin you still haven't actually told us what the resolution is, despite being asked several times. Are you planning to? If not I see no further need for this thread.
    • wesleyad
    • By wesleyad 10th Apr 18, 11:08 AM
    • 257 Posts
    • 205 Thanks
    wesleyad
    LOL it's nothing I'm doing incorrectly honey, you turn the machine on, it leaks while filling up. It has nothing to do with detergent & leaks when you don't use detergent. You obviously didn't read my post as I mentioned I had this machine before. This is a washing machine, not an amstrad computer from 1970s with a DOS-based operating system. Please don't patronise me.
    Originally posted by bobwilson
    Bob the person you replied to was asking genuine questions, something we were all thinking, something JL would have been thinking. Surely you can see that replying in such a patronising way was out of order. You can see how the thread instantly turned against you after this post. Might be worth a reread of the thread as me and Gavin have both done.

    Anyhow hope the problem got fixed.
    • bobwilson
    • By bobwilson 10th Apr 18, 11:12 AM
    • 425 Posts
    • 113 Thanks
    bobwilson
    UPDATE:

    Hi all, I just wanted to give an update to this for the sake of transparency but before I do I'd just like to say I'm a nice guy & very polite.. but I've decided as soon as you give me attitude or attack me personally, I'm going to defend myself. It isn't healthy to be attacked personally like this without offering some form of defence. I hope this won't be necessary.

    Laws change all the time and this is one of the best places on the internet for non-lawyers find out what their rights are. Let's try to keep it that way and not scare people off, ok? I don't mind people disagreeing with me or educating me, but there's a line between offering an opinion & a personal insult such as telling me to "grow up". There really is no need for it- because if you continue this way, I won't be posting or reading here anymore, and I'm sure others feel the same way.

    So, moving onto the latest update:

    1. John Lewis refused a refund or replacement & made me call Bosch to arrange an engineer visit. It took around half a day of calls to Bosch & JL but I managed to get that arranged. I was then told I'd have to wait around 8 days for the visit. Despite this, I was patient & friendly on the phone.

    2. On the date, someone turned up on the doorstep in plain clothing & a hoodie at around 8am, with no company logo or name badge. I answered the door & he just stared at me without saying anything. I said "Hello" in a friendly tone.. he just stared vacantly. I waited a moment, then when no reply came, I asked "..are you the Bosch engineer?", he looked confused then replied "yeh". He looked at the machine & the communication continued in that vein, with him seemingly unable to give anything more than single syllables. The longest thing he said was to ask me if I used powder tablets in the drawer, I told him I don't use tablets nor the drawer at all- I use 1 liquid capsule in the drum, and showed him them. I also showed him photos of the leak (which only starts after a wash is on for an hour or so) He told me the liquid capsule should be fine and he doesn't understand why the leak is happening. I also explained the leak happens without any detergent. He said he doesn't know why it's happening and can't find anything wrong with the machine or installation. He left.

    3. John lewis said the Bosch engineer had written on his report it's my fault for using powder tablets in the drawer & that I should stop doing that then the leak will stop. I repeated to them what I told the "engineer"- I don't use the drawer, nor do I use tablets. I also told them it leaks when no detergent is used at all. (my only guess is that it seems to be a design flaw- the drawer often leaks while the machine fills up).

    4. JL told me Bosch said they could send another engineer but it might cost me 90 if they don't find a fault. I turned that down.

    5. JL refused to repair or refund or replace.

    6. I bought another Bosch washing machine that works perfectly & doesn't leak. I guess I'll have to sell this one somehow but will have to be honest about why I'm selling.

    So, contrary to what some posters here have said, following the process didn't end up with a resolution- it wasted weeks of my time, energy & money. We can't survive without a washing machine so I ended up having to cut my losses and pay for a new machine myself.
    Last edited by bobwilson; 10-04-2018 at 12:10 PM.
    • bobwilson
    • By bobwilson 10th Apr 18, 11:19 AM
    • 425 Posts
    • 113 Thanks
    bobwilson
    on this thread at least you've demonstrated a really bad attitude. It does get my back up when people ask for help and then post the type of rude responses you have.

    And as an extra nail in the coffin you still haven't actually told us what the resolution is, despite being asked several times. Are you planning to? If not I see no further need for this thread.
    Originally posted by Gavin83
    Could you give me some specific quotes of what rude responses I've given & the message they were in response to? As far as I can see, I've been very polite & only had to defend myself against some rather unpleasant / almost trolling replies.

    There is no nail in the coffin & no need for that impatient attitude since I have already posted the resolution, which you could have read had you the patience to allow me a few minutes to finish posting it. I was replying to some of the outrageous responses before typing the update. That's all.
    • neilmcl
    • By neilmcl 10th Apr 18, 11:23 AM
    • 11,411 Posts
    • 8,194 Thanks
    neilmcl
    Could you give me some specific quotes of what rude responses I've given & the message they were in response to? As far as I can see, I've been very polite & only had to defend myself against some rather unpleasant / almost trolling replies.

    There is no nail in the coffin & no need for that impatient attitude since I have already posted the resolution, which you could have read had you the patience to allow me a few minutes to finish posting it. I was replying to some of the outrageous responses before typing the update. That's all.
    Originally posted by bobwilson
    Well your reply to me in post #15 wasn't exactly pleasant when all I was doing was asking some basic questions with a hope to helping you get to the bottom of your problem.

    So now that you are planning on selling on the machine will you be telling potential buyers about the "fault" you have with it?
    • bobwilson
    • By bobwilson 10th Apr 18, 11:43 AM
    • 425 Posts
    • 113 Thanks
    bobwilson
    So now that you are planning on selling on the machine will you be telling potential buyers about the "fault" you have with it?
    Originally posted by neilmcl
    Yes, it wouldn't be fair to be dishonest. It'll decrease the price further but I don't see any other option.
    • bobwilson
    • By bobwilson 10th Apr 18, 12:03 PM
    • 425 Posts
    • 113 Thanks
    bobwilson
    One might take a guess that given Bobs attitude JL/Bosch are in no rush to make an early appointment
    Originally posted by k3lvc
    another personal attack- you have no idea how I spoke to Bosch on the phone. It took hours to get an engineer visit arranged, to which most people would be miffed. I was very polite.
    • k3lvc
    • By k3lvc 10th Apr 18, 12:06 PM
    • 2,338 Posts
    • 3,871 Thanks
    k3lvc
    another personal attack- you have no idea how I spoke to Bosch on the phone. It took hours to get an engineer visit arranged, to which most people would be miffed. I was very polite.
    Originally posted by bobwilson

    It's far from a personal attack - it's a reflection of the attitude/language etc that you've shown on here and that nearly all posters have picked up on - yet we're the ones who when we try and make suggestions are wrong ??
    • bobwilson
    • By bobwilson 10th Apr 18, 12:06 PM
    • 425 Posts
    • 113 Thanks
    bobwilson
    I appreciate everyone's replies here but I can only assure you my responses have been in response to your replies & the attitudes here. Make whatever pre-judgements or speculations you will. I've posted my update, but people just seem intent on bickering instead of a discussion on consumer rights. I'm out. It's clear I'm not going to get any sense out of the locals in this forum.
    • Blackbeard of Perranporth
    • By Blackbeard of Perranporth 10th Apr 18, 12:18 PM
    • 5,281 Posts
    • 31,495 Thanks
    Blackbeard of Perranporth
    UPDATE:

    Hi all, I just wanted to give an update to this for the sake of transparency but before I do I'd just like to say I'm a nice guy & very polite.. but I've decided as soon as you give me attitude or attack me personally, I'm going to defend myself. It isn't healthy to be attacked personally like this without offering some form of defence. I hope this won't be necessary.

    Laws change all the time and this is one of the best places on the internet for non-lawyers find out what their rights are. Let's try to keep it that way and not scare people off, ok? I don't mind people disagreeing with me or educating me, but there's a line between offering an opinion & a personal insult such as telling me to "grow up". There really is no need for it- because if you continue this way, I won't be posting or reading here anymore, and I'm sure others feel the same way.

    So, moving onto the latest update:

    1. John Lewis refused a refund or replacement & made me call Bosch to arrange an engineer visit. It took around half a day of calls to Bosch & JL but I managed to get that arranged. I was then told I'd have to wait around 8 days for the visit. Despite this, I was patient & friendly on the phone.

    2. On the date, someone turned up on the doorstep in plain clothing & a hoodie at around 8am, with no company logo or name badge. I answered the door & he just stared at me without saying anything. I said "Hello" in a friendly tone.. he just stared vacantly. I waited a moment, then when no reply came, I asked "..are you the Bosch engineer?", he looked confused then replied "yeh". He looked at the machine & the communication continued in that vein, with him seemingly unable to give anything more than single syllables. The longest thing he said was to ask me if I used powder tablets in the drawer, I told him I don't use tablets nor the drawer at all- I use 1 liquid capsule in the drum, and showed him them. I also showed him photos of the leak (which only starts after a wash is on for an hour or so) He told me the liquid capsule should be fine and he doesn't understand why the leak is happening. I also explained the leak happens without any detergent. He said he doesn't know why it's happening and can't find anything wrong with the machine or installation. He left.

    3. John lewis said the Bosch engineer had written on his report it's my fault for using powder tablets in the drawer & that I should stop doing that then the leak will stop. I repeated to them what I told the "engineer"- I don't use the drawer, nor do I use tablets. I also told them it leaks when no detergent is used at all. (my only guess is that it seems to be a design flaw- the drawer often leaks while the machine fills up).

    4. JL told me Bosch said they could send another engineer but it might cost me 90 if they don't find a fault. I turned that down.

    5. JL refused to repair or refund or replace.

    6. I bought another Bosch washing machine that works perfectly & doesn't leak. I guess I'll have to sell this one somehow but will have to be honest about why I'm selling.

    So, contrary to what some posters here have said, following the process didn't end up with a resolution- it wasted weeks of my time, energy & money. We can't survive without a washing machine so I ended up having to cut my losses and pay for a new machine myself.
    Originally posted by bobwilson

    Not to be rude, but as a polite man, I do not put powder tablets in the drawer! I have highlighted this for you. Of course you can continue to waste your own time complaining and getting nowhere.
    I am Blackbeard of Porthperan!
    The views expressed here are subjective!
    • DoaM
    • By DoaM 10th Apr 18, 12:31 PM
    • 4,566 Posts
    • 4,595 Thanks
    DoaM
    If you read further along the same paragraph you'll find that the OP doesn't use powder tablets at all - according to the OP the engineer lied in his report.

    OP - I haven't gone back to read the thread. How did you pay for the machine originally? (Debit card? Credit card?) If the latter then you could raise a Section 75 claim ... this makes the credit provider jointly liable with the retailer for the performance of the contract, including any statutory or warranty rights.
    Diary of a madman
    Walk the line again today
    Entries of confusion
    Dear diary, I'm here to stay
    • takman
    • By takman 10th Apr 18, 12:47 PM
    • 3,593 Posts
    • 3,216 Thanks
    takman
    6. I bought another Bosch washing machine that works perfectly & doesn't leak. I guess I'll have to sell this one somehow but will have to be honest about why I'm selling.
    Originally posted by bobwilson
    I'm surprised you bought another Bosch washing machine when in your post you explained how the engineer lied on their report which has cost you money.
    • POPPYOSCAR
    • By POPPYOSCAR 10th Apr 18, 12:52 PM
    • 11,029 Posts
    • 23,667 Thanks
    POPPYOSCAR
    I am not surprised by the attitude you describe by John Lewis as we experienced something similar with a laptop. We had to fight to get resolution but we did in the end.

    John Lewis seem to be good at blaming the customer!

    I have had much better customer service from Tesco who offered a full refund on a vacuum cleaner I took back to the store.

    If I were you I would not leave it at that.

    Have you written a complaint, gone on their social media etc.

    I would.
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