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    • bobwilson
    • By bobwilson 14th Mar 18, 5:58 PM
    • 407Posts
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    bobwilson
    John lewis refusing refund under distance sel regs
    • #1
    • 14th Mar 18, 5:58 PM
    John lewis refusing refund under distance sel regs 14th Mar 18 at 5:58 PM
    Hi,

    I've not been in this position with a reputable company like John Lewis before, so I'm somewhat surprised by this. I bought a washing machine from John Lewis online, and it arrived last night. It was installed by the John Lewis men.

    However, this morning I noticed when I put my first wash on that the soap drawer leaked water down the front of the machine during wash cycles.

    I've owned a machine of this model before and it never behaved like this, so I know it's faulty. I called JL for a replacement or refund, but to my surprise they insisted on me calling Bosch & sending out an engineer to come and look at it in 8 days time. JL told me it's to establish "who is to blame".

    I mentioned about the 14 day distance selling regs, and how I don't want the hassle of waiting 8 days for an engineer to come out, but JL insisted it was my only option. They refused to refund or replace without seeing the results from the Bosch engineer.

    I explained this goes against the distance selling regs, but they wouldn't listen to me (in fact, many staff at JL were outrageously rude & one even refused to let me speak to a supervisor then hung up on me).

    I was so shocked & appalled as this is John Lewis, not some disreputable online shop.

    Has their customer service gone down hill in recent years, or am I wrong to expect a refund or replacement without an engineer visit? I've no idea what my next step is but I've already spent around 4 hours on the phone/on hold & really want to avoid any hassle as I'm in the middle of moving house & managing refurbishments.

    I tried citizen's advice charity but couldn't get through to them, I guess they're quite busy.
Page 1
    • pinkshoes
    • By pinkshoes 14th Mar 18, 6:08 PM
    • 15,713 Posts
    • 21,581 Thanks
    pinkshoes
    • #2
    • 14th Mar 18, 6:08 PM
    • #2
    • 14th Mar 18, 6:08 PM
    You are entitled to a full refund IF it is faulty, but the retailer is entitled to check it is faulty first before refunding.

    So, if you get it returned and they find it is NOT faulty, you will the be liable for costs to have it returned to you.

    I find their request reasonable but would expect a fixed time appointment or short time slot.
    Should've = Should HAVE (not 'of')
    Would've = Would HAVE (not 'of')

    No, I am not perfect, but yes I do judge people on their use of basic English language. If you didn't know the above, then learn it! (If English is your second language, then you are forgiven!)
    • Fosterdog
    • By Fosterdog 14th Mar 18, 6:11 PM
    • 3,804 Posts
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    Fosterdog
    • #3
    • 14th Mar 18, 6:11 PM
    • #3
    • 14th Mar 18, 6:11 PM
    John Lewis are correct, you are not cancelling under DSRs (which no longer exist) you are using your consumer rights and beer which JL are allowed to firstly verify that a fault exists and secondly that the fault is inherent and not down to user error or damage.

    8 days is a bit on the long side for waiting for an engineer though.
    • bobwilson
    • By bobwilson 14th Mar 18, 6:14 PM
    • 407 Posts
    • 109 Thanks
    bobwilson
    • #4
    • 14th Mar 18, 6:14 PM
    • #4
    • 14th Mar 18, 6:14 PM
    so do my consumer rights state that I have to wait for a Bosch engineer to come out in 8 days? It's extremely inconvenient to have to plan ahead like this at the moment. I'd much rather just JL collect the machine & check the fault on their own time, not mine.

    Another strange thing to note, was that the Bosch lady told me "you have 14 days cooling off period to cancel the engineer visit", which I'm not even paying for, quite bizarre. I tried to clarify this with her but she spoke in a very slow manner & didn't seem to make much sense.
    • waamo
    • By waamo 14th Mar 18, 6:38 PM
    • 3,181 Posts
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    waamo
    • #5
    • 14th Mar 18, 6:38 PM
    • #5
    • 14th Mar 18, 6:38 PM
    They want to check you haven't taken a lump hammer to it in frustration or the such like.

    As such you may look at the big dent you inflicted on it and decide to cancel the visit.

    They are entitled to check this isn't the case.
    This space for hire.
    • bobwilson
    • By bobwilson 14th Mar 18, 6:42 PM
    • 407 Posts
    • 109 Thanks
    bobwilson
    • #6
    • 14th Mar 18, 6:42 PM
    • #6
    • 14th Mar 18, 6:42 PM
    They want to check you haven't taken a lump hammer to it in frustration or the such like.

    As such you may look at the big dent you inflicted on it and decide to cancel the visit.

    They are entitled to check this isn't the case.
    Originally posted by waamo
    but if there was a big dent in it, they would have no way to prove I had dented it! It could have been like that upon delivery and not noticed until today. (not that there is a dent)

    Anyway, I'm just quite shocked that this is the law, as making a customer wait 8 days for an engineer to see a brand new washing machine seems completely unreasonable- I'd have thought a reasonable law would state the shop must replace it or refund without forcing the customer to be visited by an engineer for a brand new device.

    I don't suppose any of you have a link to the gov website / sentence that refers to this? I used to have a link in the olden days (10 years ago) but can't find it. I'm really surprised by all this.
    Last edited by bobwilson; 14-03-2018 at 6:45 PM.
    • waamo
    • By waamo 14th Mar 18, 6:55 PM
    • 3,181 Posts
    • 4,206 Thanks
    waamo
    • #7
    • 14th Mar 18, 6:55 PM
    • #7
    • 14th Mar 18, 6:55 PM
    This is hard work. They want to check for misuse of some description, not necessarily smacking it. It could be any kind of misuse that may not be immediately obvious which could include poor fitting by their own employees.
    This space for hire.
    • bobwilson
    • By bobwilson 14th Mar 18, 7:07 PM
    • 407 Posts
    • 109 Thanks
    bobwilson
    • #8
    • 14th Mar 18, 7:07 PM
    • #8
    • 14th Mar 18, 7:07 PM
    This is hard work. They want to check for misuse of some description, not necessarily smacking it. It could be any kind of misuse that may not be immediately obvious which could include poor fitting by their own employees.
    Originally posted by waamo
    I'm aware of that but from what I know, the law usually gives benefit of the doubt to the consumer & often protects from companies wanting things that would be deemed too much hassle for the consumer (for example keeping packaging), and I'd have thought making a consumer arrange an engineer to come out would be considered unreasonable for a brand new device regardless of the justifications.

    Could you show me the link to the gov website / sentence that you're getting your info from? I'm really surprised by all this.
    • boo_star
    • By boo_star 14th Mar 18, 7:16 PM
    • 1,473 Posts
    • 822 Thanks
    boo_star
    • #9
    • 14th Mar 18, 7:16 PM
    • #9
    • 14th Mar 18, 7:16 PM
    I'm aware of that but from what I know, the law usually gives benefit of the doubt to the consumer & often protects from companies wanting things that would be deemed too much hassle for the consumer (for example keeping packaging), and I'd have thought making a consumer arrange an engineer to come out would be considered unreasonable for a brand new device regardless of the justifications.
    Originally posted by bobwilson
    It isn't entirely reasonable for you to have to arrange an engineer visit but sometimes doing as they say is the simplest and quickest way to get the resolution you want and digging your heels in is just going to make it take far longer than necessary.

    This is probably one of those times.
    • bobwilson
    • By bobwilson 14th Mar 18, 7:21 PM
    • 407 Posts
    • 109 Thanks
    bobwilson
    It isn't entirely reasonable for you to have to arrange an engineer visit but sometimes doing as they say is the simplest and quickest way to get the resolution you want and digging your heels in is just going to make it take far longer than necessary.

    This is probably one of those times.
    Originally posted by boo_star
    it probably is, but I'd still like to know where the law stands on it
    • boo_star
    • By boo_star 14th Mar 18, 7:39 PM
    • 1,473 Posts
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    boo_star
    it probably is, but I'd still like to know where the law stands on it
    Originally posted by bobwilson
    The law says nothing about you calling up to arrange engineer visits.

    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/section/20/enacted is the relevant section of the law.
    • bobwilson
    • By bobwilson 14th Mar 18, 7:45 PM
    • 407 Posts
    • 109 Thanks
    bobwilson
    The law says nothing about you calling up to arrange engineer visits.

    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/section/20/enacted is the relevant section of the law.
    Originally posted by boo_star
    I think you know I wasn't talking about specific references to engineer visits- no law can detail every possible scenario but they do tend to make generalisations. Is there no consumer leaflet like there used to be on distance selling regs about it? e.g.
    http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20140402222252/http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/business_leaflets/general/oft913.pdf

    (yes yes I know this isn't relevant, it's an example of a leaflet that's easy to read & comprehend for non legal experts)
    • boo_star
    • By boo_star 14th Mar 18, 7:59 PM
    • 1,473 Posts
    • 822 Thanks
    boo_star
    I think you know I wasn't talking about specific references to engineer visits- no law can detail every possible scenario but they do tend to make generalisations. Is there no consumer leaflet like there used to be on distance selling regs about it? e.g.
    http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20140402222252/http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/business_leaflets/general/oft913.pdf

    (yes yes I know this isn't relevant, it's an example of a leaflet that's easy to read & comprehend for non legal experts)
    Originally posted by bobwilson
    There is no Government-issued leaflet as far as I'm aware. The usual consumer rights sites of course have their own guides.
    • neilmcl
    • By neilmcl 14th Mar 18, 8:40 PM
    • 10,939 Posts
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    neilmcl
    Jut how much water is leaking and does it leak at the start when filling up or during the wash cycle?

    Could it be that you're overfilling the machine and/or using too much detergent?

    These are the sorts of things that an engineer will check to make sure that an actual fault exists rather than something you're doing incorrectly.
    • bobwilson
    • By bobwilson 15th Mar 18, 12:48 AM
    • 407 Posts
    • 109 Thanks
    bobwilson
    Jut how much water is leaking and does it leak at the start when filling up or during the wash cycle?

    Could it be that you're overfilling the machine and/or using too much detergent?

    These are the sorts of things that an engineer will check to make sure that an actual fault exists rather than something you're doing incorrectly.
    Originally posted by neilmcl
    EDIT: I'm sorry if my reply sounded patronising- it's just because I found the question patronising, but I appreciate you were trying to help. I came on the rights section of the forum to find out my rights, not debate the fault of the machine. I wouldn't come on MSE forums if it was a case of too much detergent, and I don't think anyone would - they'd just decrease detergent. Perhaps I give people too much credit. I thought the fact I owned several Bosch machines with the same interface before this and never had a problem, answered that. Anyway, I use 1 liquid capsule in the drum so that's not the issue. The leak also happens with no detergent at all, so it isn't a problem with that. The drawer just leaks when it fills up, after an hour or so. I really wanted to just know my rights in this case.

    (Original reply:
    LOL it's nothing I'm doing incorrectly honey, you turn the machine on, it leaks while filling up. It has nothing to do with detergent & leaks when you don't use detergent. You obviously didn't read my post as I mentioned I had this machine before. This is a washing machine, not an amstrad computer from 1970s with a DOS-based operating system. Please don't patronise me.)

    Re: the above reply, I'm sorry again if it sounded off, I was also wound up by JL customer support at the time who were incredibly rude to me (who incidentally I'll never receive an apology from as you never speak to the same person twice), and the pressure was on as it was appearing to turn into a huge battle. I'm not the fastest to respond to rudeness in person, I'm usually so surprised by it I don't know what to say. It can ruin your whole day. I appreciate the irony of what I'm saying. There comes a time when you deal with so much unnecessary rudeness from people you just snap. Despite this reply which was a little impatient (perhaps understandably so given my situation), I think the number of incredibly nasty & personal replies below this one are a testament to that.

    I've since read there's a problem with JL support in the past few years, after reading reviews online, they've changed their management & processes, and aren't what they used to be. I've since found youtube videos of JL staff being rude & even hanging up on customers (similar to how they've been treating me), which is something I'm not used to in my generation particularly from JL.
    Last edited by bobwilson; 10-04-2018 at 11:53 AM.
    • wealdroam
    • By wealdroam 15th Mar 18, 12:57 AM
    • 18,655 Posts
    • 15,580 Thanks
    wealdroam
    Had a lengthy reply written, but decided not to post.

    Good luck Bob. You may not get any more support.
    • marliepanda
    • By marliepanda 15th Mar 18, 2:44 AM
    • 5,616 Posts
    • 11,760 Thanks
    marliepanda
    I predict tomorrow John Lewis will have replaced the washing machine, refunded Mr Wilson in full and given him a lifetime 50% discount off all future purchases for the inconvenience. Oh and of course a personal apology from the JL CEO... cant wait for Bob to tell us!
    • photome
    • By photome 15th Mar 18, 6:45 AM
    • 13,092 Posts
    • 8,650 Thanks
    photome
    LOL it's nothing I'm doing incorrectly honey, you turn the machine on, it leaks while filling up. It has nothing to do with detergent & leaks when you don't use detergent. You obviously didn't read my post as I mentioned I had this machine before. This is a washing machine, not an amstrad computer from 1970s with a DOS-based operating system. Please don't patronise me.
    Originally posted by bobwilson
    Hardly the way to go about getting help but I will try anyway

    Is the dispenser tray fitted in correctly, maybe a small piece of packaging has got stuck in it somewhere
    • John-K
    • By John-K 15th Mar 18, 7:09 AM
    • 654 Posts
    • 998 Thanks
    John-K
    LOL it's nothing I'm doing incorrectly honey, you turn the machine on, it leaks while filling up. It has nothing to do with detergent & leaks when you don't use detergent. You obviously didn't read my post as I mentioned I had this machine before. This is a washing machine, not an amstrad computer from 1970s with a DOS-based operating system. Please don't patronise me.
    Originally posted by bobwilson
    Bob, if this is the sort of attitude you display to people trying to help then it is not surprising that you exasperate even the best of staff on the phone.

    You are wrong about the law, you have had this pointed out, politely, and as a response you have decided to be rude to people.

    This attitude will not serve you well in life, I fear.
    • whitegoods_engineer
    • By whitegoods_engineer 15th Mar 18, 2:40 PM
    • 565 Posts
    • 738 Thanks
    whitegoods_engineer
    Just because water is coming down from the soap drawer DOESN'T mean the machine is faulty.

    I have seen this when customers incorrectly use a soft detergent pod by putting it in the drawer. This then slips down into the channel feeding water into the drum and temporarily blocks it before it has had an opportunity to dissolve. The water cannot go down into the drum so rises up into the dispenser section where it pours out until the pod finally dissolves. Of course, when tested the pod will have gone. Unless the engineer has seen the pod being incorrectly used, no fault will be found on the day until the next time the customer puts the pod in the drawer instead of the drum!

    I've also seen massive over-pressure of the water inlet causing this.

    Have you checked your manual? The allowed water pressure is usually a maximum of 10 bar.

    You simply cannot just assume a fault. An expert needs to check the installation to determine whether or not a fault exists.

    Bosch machines are thoroughly tested with water prior to leaving the factory so a fault is less likely than an installation issue.

    There may be a fault but why should a retailer simply accept that there is before somebody who knows what they are talking about looks at it first.

    You need to allow JL to send out an engineer. If no fault is found, you could technically be liable to reimburse them for the cost of a visit!

    I have been to hundreds of visits for manufacturers where the customer has stated adamantly that the new appliance is faulty as soon as I arrive. In the vast majority of cases, the appliance turns out to be functioning correctly. Bad installation, customers not reading the manual and other reasons far outweigh actual faulty-on-arrival appliances.
    Last edited by whitegoods_engineer; 15-03-2018 at 2:46 PM.
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