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  • FIRST POST
    • financerulez
    • By financerulez 14th Mar 18, 5:42 PM
    • 103Posts
    • 187Thanks
    financerulez
    Quick queries!
    • #1
    • 14th Mar 18, 5:42 PM
    Quick queries! 14th Mar 18 at 5:42 PM
    Hi all

    Brother has received ECP parking fine and I said I'd deal with it after all the byelaw experience, so venturing into new territory! Feel at grasp with everything and the process and may post my POPLA appeal on here, will decide after writing it.

    Had a couple of queries I can't find anything on:

    1. Is there a way I can find out who owns the land? In this case the signage just says Owned by landowner. No threads for this particular location. Have searched the Land Registry but it's not clear whether it will be part of the title of one of the surrounding buildings, or simply 'land adjoining'.
    2. Is there a quick way of searching for winning reasons on the POPLA decision thread. E.g. I want to search for recent wins based on signage. Usually the assessment decision rationale is given as a block of text. Could be handy to use something like Win - Signage, Win - Landowner Authority, Win - POFA etc, to make for faster searching?

    Thanks in advance, and looking forward to getting stuck into the non-byelaw stuff!
Page 1
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 14th Mar 18, 5:45 PM
    • 61,591 Posts
    • 74,490 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #2
    • 14th Mar 18, 5:45 PM
    • #2
    • 14th Mar 18, 5:45 PM
    I am not sure if it's up to date but Aaron Aardvark used to summarise exactly that, with post numbers, on the first page of his 'POPLA Decisions' sticky thread.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 14th Mar 18, 6:37 PM
    • 10,002 Posts
    • 9,829 Thanks
    The Deep
    • #3
    • 14th Mar 18, 6:37 PM
    • #3
    • 14th Mar 18, 6:37 PM
    This is an entirely unregulated industry which is scamming the public with inflated claims for minor breaches of contracts for alleged parking offences, aided and abetted by a handful of low-rent solicitors..

    Parking Eye, CPM, Smart, and another company have already been named and shamed, as has Gladstones Solicitors, and BW Legal, (these two law firms take hundreds of these cases to court each year). They nearly always lose) and have been reported to the regulatory authority by an M.P.

    Hospital car parks and residential complex tickets have been especially mentioned.

    The problem has become so rampant that MPs have agreed to enact a Bill to regulate these scammers. Watch the video of the Second Reading in the HofC recently.

    http://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/2f0384f2-eba5-4fff-ab07-cf24b6a22918?in=12:49:41

    and complain in the most robust terms to your MP. With a fair wind most of these companies may well be put out of business by Christmas.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • financerulez
    • By financerulez 15th Mar 18, 6:36 AM
    • 103 Posts
    • 187 Thanks
    financerulez
    • #4
    • 15th Mar 18, 6:36 AM
    • #4
    • 15th Mar 18, 6:36 AM
    Thanks Coupon - don't know how i missed that!

    Any idea about identifying the landowner, or will I have to wait for their evidence at POPLA? No doubt the contract will be with ECP Holdings Ltd. I guess they may own the land themselves.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 15th Mar 18, 7:27 AM
    • 19,422 Posts
    • 30,696 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    • #5
    • 15th Mar 18, 7:27 AM
    • #5
    • 15th Mar 18, 7:27 AM
    Any idea about identifying the landowner,
    Try the local authority, planning department or collections (who pays the business rates?). Try the local Valuation Office - they usually have a website where you can check out rateable values of properties. Just some ideas .....

    I very much doubt that ECP (or ECP Holdings) owns any land - particularly if it is a free car park (not sure from your OP whether it is or not).
    The fact that I have commented on your thread does not mean I have become your personal adviser. A long list of subsequent questions addressed for my personal attention is unlikely to receive a reply.
    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • IamEmanresu
    • By IamEmanresu 15th Mar 18, 8:57 AM
    • 3,276 Posts
    • 5,504 Thanks
    IamEmanresu
    • #6
    • 15th Mar 18, 8:57 AM
    • #6
    • 15th Mar 18, 8:57 AM
    I very much doubt that ECP (or ECP Holdings) owns any land - particularly if it is a free car park (not sure from your OP whether it is or not).
    ECP have two different types of business. One where they do own the land and others where they provide a service for others. They are a professional outfit and although they don't take lightly to people scamming them by not paying, they are smart enough not to waste money chasing people.

    Was is a Pay and Display or free?
    If you want to win - avoid losing first. Here are a few examples
    1. Failing to Acknowledge or Defend https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5760415
    2. Template defences that say nothing https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5818671&page=5#86
    3. Forgetting about the Witness Statement
    • financerulez
    • By financerulez 15th Mar 18, 10:06 AM
    • 103 Posts
    • 187 Thanks
    financerulez
    • #7
    • 15th Mar 18, 10:06 AM
    • #7
    • 15th Mar 18, 10:06 AM
    Thanks guys - it was a pay and display, no free allocation at all (not even on Sundays!)

    Have used what Umkomaas advised and think I've tracked down the landowner Will be handy information to be holding as I think they have history of leaving this out of the contract showing landowner authority at POPLA stage!
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 16th Mar 18, 12:05 AM
    • 61,591 Posts
    • 74,490 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #8
    • 16th Mar 18, 12:05 AM
    • #8
    • 16th Mar 18, 12:05 AM
    ECP also tend to supply bad photo evidence, mostly undated and with no proof of where the signs are, nothing to really show what signs were on site at the material time.

    So be ready to tear into the signs when at the final 'POPLA comments on evidence' stage.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • financerulez
    • By financerulez 16th Mar 18, 8:38 AM
    • 103 Posts
    • 187 Thanks
    financerulez
    • #9
    • 16th Mar 18, 8:38 AM
    • #9
    • 16th Mar 18, 8:38 AM
    That's good to hear as signage will be my point 1 - mainly due to the fact that there is only 1 sign in the entire car park which you don't even walk near to exit the car park. There is a sign by the entrance too, but it is unlit, and the driver entered at 10pm, so in this case genuinely did not see any signs. Add in the fact that ECP signs don't make the charge prominent on the sign, and I'm hoping they'll uphold!

    Is it better to put in photos of .e.g dark entrance sign, or entire car park with no lights/signs, or let them dig themselves a hole?
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 16th Mar 18, 9:35 AM
    • 3,429 Posts
    • 4,269 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    Put your own pics in, at the time of day to show it was dark and they werent lit.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 17th Mar 18, 12:23 AM
    • 61,591 Posts
    • 74,490 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Yes, embed your own photos with comments, illustrating your looong appeal like a story book.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • financerulez
    • By financerulez 22nd Mar 18, 11:43 AM
    • 103 Posts
    • 187 Thanks
    financerulez
    In the POPLA appeal, which will be from the Reg Keeper, can RK refer to the driver doing things. Eg can I write:

    The driver did not see the sign because there was no lighting.

    Or will this be looked upon unfavourably for knowing who was driving and not divulging / them thinking this means RK is driver. My guess is it's fine to write this, but just want to double check.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 22nd Mar 18, 1:16 PM
    • 19,422 Posts
    • 30,696 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    There is no obligation placed on the keeper, legally or morally, to divulge the identity of the driver. The driver has informed the keeper of all the circumstances in order for the keeper to defend him/herself from this charge, as is his/her right under PoFA. So that's how the keeper knows the details.

    Of course, the PPC could pursue the driver directly ....... should they know who he/she is. . All part of the game the PPC chooses to earn their dirty money from.
    The fact that I have commented on your thread does not mean I have become your personal adviser. A long list of subsequent questions addressed for my personal attention is unlikely to receive a reply.
    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 22nd Mar 18, 1:30 PM
    • 37,393 Posts
    • 84,266 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    You could comment on what the driver has told you, or that you visited the site with the driver and therefore what you have seen yourself.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • financerulez
    • By financerulez 23rd Mar 18, 8:36 AM
    • 103 Posts
    • 187 Thanks
    financerulez
    Hi guys

    Appeal nearly ready - they haven't actually sent a POPLA code yet, but I want to be able to upload appeal immediately to put them under pressure. I won't post appeal as it's 14 A4 pages of mostly the stuff used against ECP everyday and fairly confident in the content. If they contest and it wins, I will post for future use by people.

    RE my photos:

    These are my photos in the dark, that I was going to use to show the entrance t&cs are not readable. Think they are okay, should I use all, or which do you think is best?

    1. https://ibb.co/gtG0Pc - Looking at entrance from inside car park (notice Van, shows poorly lighting around entrance - probably should have put this last, as easier to understand from other photos. In fact, perhaps read these from 5 to 1!)
    2. https://ibb.co/mnFujc - Looking left from parking spot (notice pay point is lit up, but unrecognisable as a pay point)
    3. https://ibb.co/bYE9Hx - Looking right from parking spot (Driver headed this way, so had no reason to pass pay point as no walls in car park)
    4. https://ibb.co/mDifPc - Entrance t&cs - closer
    5. https://ibb.co/dHdrVH - Entrance t&cs - further - (notice white van - shows height of sign)

    I also have photos of the signs in the daytime, usual ECP garbage sign. Worth uploading a legible ECP sign or wait for them to do it? Don't want the adjudicator confused if I upload a legible sign thinking that Driver was there during the daytime/could actually read the sign.

    Thanks for advice as always!
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 23rd Mar 18, 10:28 AM
    • 37,393 Posts
    • 84,266 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    The van really helps.

    1) Can only be seen from outside the car park from a public right of way. Blank from inside the car park.

    2) A fuzzy light by some rubbish bins. It could be anything. The driver may not have looked in that direction at the time of the alleged event.

    3) Definitely use this. No signs in sight to draw the driver's attention.

    4) Approaching from this direction, Ts and Cs could not be brought to the attention of the driver. Tiny font and nothing prominent.

    5) As above.

    A better pic would be approaching from the opposite direction where only the (blank) back of the sign would be seen. Turning left from that approach, the driver would be looking for obstructions and pot-holes between the quite narrow entrance poles, and may well have missed any other signs, especially if they were at right angles to the vehicle's direction of travel.
    Last edited by Fruitcake; 23-03-2018 at 10:44 AM.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • financerulez
    • By financerulez 11th Apr 18, 6:44 PM
    • 103 Posts
    • 187 Thanks
    financerulez
    Finally got my POPLA Code - will send my appeal tomorrow - all normal points so won't bother posting,

    They didn't respond to the s.10 request and 21 days is up. They acknowledged the request and said that their data manager will deal with it, but I've not heard anything.

    1. BPA 21.4 I think it is, says they have to comply with the DPA. By failing to respond to the s.10 Notice, they clearly haven't complied - so that'll be added into the appeal, under the non-compliance with BPA CoP section.

    2. What course of action do I actually take for them not having replied? Get the iCO to do a s.42 assessment? Or send them another letter saying where's my response, etc?

    Thanks all!
    • Castle
    • By Castle 11th Apr 18, 7:01 PM
    • 1,900 Posts
    • 2,576 Thanks
    Castle

    2. What course of action do I actually take for them not having replied? Get the iCO to do a s.42 assessment? Or send them another letter saying where's my response, etc?

    Thanks all!
    Originally posted by financerulez
    Make a complaint to the ICO.

    Failure to comply with a section 10 notice is a breach of the 6th principle of the 1998DPA
    • financerulez
    • By financerulez 12th Apr 18, 10:43 AM
    • 103 Posts
    • 187 Thanks
    financerulez
    Thanks.

    With the POPLA appeal, do I need to provide the NtK, my appeal etc or will ECP provide all this? (I've specifically referenced them in the appeal.)
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 12th Apr 18, 10:47 AM
    • 19,422 Posts
    • 30,696 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    The PPC has to provide copies to POPLA of everything they have sent to you. If you find, when you receive their evidence pack, that the NtK (or any other important document) is missing, you make that clear to POPLA - and as the PPC cannot then furnish further evidence, you are on the way to winning.
    The fact that I have commented on your thread does not mean I have become your personal adviser. A long list of subsequent questions addressed for my personal attention is unlikely to receive a reply.
    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
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