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  • FIRST POST
    • Tirinoarim
    • By Tirinoarim 14th Mar 18, 4:55 PM
    • 14Posts
    • 11Thanks
    Tirinoarim
    PCN for parking at WORK, OWN SPACE, VALID PERMIT!
    • #1
    • 14th Mar 18, 4:55 PM
    PCN for parking at WORK, OWN SPACE, VALID PERMIT! 14th Mar 18 at 4:55 PM
    I really need some help and advice as we're now being threatened with court action.

    My wife started work for a company in Manchester who have an allocation of spaces in a private car park. Weeks prior to the commencement of her employment she was issued with a parking permit (displayed in her windscreen) and her own parking bay/space. She parked in this space for a number of days before the PCN was issued (which was only for the morning), and the afternoon after the PCN issue date, all without problem. The reason stated for the PCN was "Permit Holders Only (ANPR)".
    We responded saying she did have a valid permit, a copy of that permit, and a copy of THEIR photo showing the permit in her windscreen. We received a response that our "appeal had been rejected" on the grounds of insufficient evidence (with no detail of why, or what evidence would have been sufficient).
    She then asked her employer if they could help with this obvious mistake and she was told not to worry, they'd sort it out. Time passed and eventually got a response that in fact they could NOT help and that the parking company was refusing to enter into multiple appeals (despite insistence this was additional evidence to the existing appeal - i.e. a copy of the employers notification of her vehicle registration & associated correspondence etc.).
    By the time the conversation between her employer and the parking company had concluded (over christmas & new year, including a period of 14 days of no-response from the parking company), the 28 day period for the POPLA number had expired.
    A letter was then sent to the parking company saying the PCN was invalid as the overriding and only contract was between her and her employer, which was concluded at no cost, the only reason for the parking companies presence was to deter public parking to incur benefit to those with permission (i.e. the employees with allocated spaces), promissory estoppel, 'a grantor shall not derogate from his grant', etc.
    We have now (yesterday) received a letter from the Debt Recovery Agency threatening court action.
    * Spoken to CAB (local branch) - they cant help
    * Spoken to CAB Consumer Helpline - they cant help
    * Spoken to MoneyClaim.gov.uk - they cant help unless there's a CCJ
    * Spoken to POPLA - they cant help as the number expired
    * Spoken to the employer, they cant/wont help
    * Spoken to a solicitor, they've pretty much run out of ideas

    Something is fundamentally wrong here where a parking company can perform a predatory operation, reject any and all evidence without reason, and bully people into paying the fine because legal costs incurred would be prohibitive (in that it would be small claims and therefore not recoverable).
    Is our only option now to pay the invalid, unjust, false and frivolous claim?
    Can anyone out there please help as this is causing my wife a great deal of stress and upset.
Page 2
    • Tirinoarim
    • By Tirinoarim 26th Apr 18, 8:20 PM
    • 14 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    Tirinoarim
    Should I attempt to contact them and resolve before court or am I likely to get as much sense out of them as I did with Horizon and DRP!?
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 26th Apr 18, 8:27 PM
    • 7,210 Posts
    • 6,714 Thanks
    KeithP
    Time for you to re-read post #4 of the NEWBIES FAQ sticky thread.

    In there you will find comprehensive guidance on how to deal with debt collector's letters.
    .
    • Tirinoarim
    • By Tirinoarim 16th May 18, 2:27 PM
    • 14 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    Tirinoarim
    FFS! "Notice of intention to commence legal proceedings" - "Zenith Collections".

    This is really stressing my wife out now. There's conflicting advice above about ignore/stern letter at this stage, so I'm considering sending the following based on a template here...

    Dear Sirs

    Parking Charge Number: xxxxxx / Your Reference: xxxxxx

    I refer to your letter of xxxxxx, and earlier correspondence.

    Firstly, I have no intention of paying the money demanded by your client and any court proceedings will be vigorously defended.
    Second, as requested a number of times previously, should it be your clients’ intention to start court proceedings, they must first provide a Letter Before Claim which complies with the requirements of Annex A Para 2 of the Practice Direction on Pre-action Conduct.
    Please also note that a failure and/or refusal to comply with the Practice Direction will result in a complaint being made to the court and an application for a stay of the action and costs pursuant to the provisions of paragraph 4 of the Practice Direction on non-compliance and sanctions.
    In the meantime, you should note that this charge is disputed as the vehicle was parked in a personally allocated space, in an employee car-park, whilst displaying the required permit, as evidenced by your clients’ own photographs. The right to park via an express agreement with the employer creates the prevailing, overriding and only contract which was concluded as agreed at no cost or penalty to any party involved. The unchallenged parking on all occasions prior and afternoon after the alleged offence further supports the validity of the parking at the time of the alleged offence.

    You must now refer this matter back to your client and cease and desist all further contact with me. Failure to do so will result in a complaint to the Credit Services Association.

    I trust that I have made myself clear.

    Yours faithfully
    Thoughts/support/advice appreciated.
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 16th May 18, 2:39 PM
    • 7,210 Posts
    • 6,714 Thanks
    KeithP
    I wouldn't sent it. That's just my opinion.
    I think is sends a message to the debt collector that they have your attention and you are concerned.

    The general consensus here is that debt collector's are harmless. All they can do is write threatening letters - nothing more.

    Again just my opinion - ignore debt collectors. Don't let them upset you.
    .
    • fisherjim
    • By fisherjim 16th May 18, 3:15 PM
    • 2,897 Posts
    • 4,396 Thanks
    fisherjim
    If you look at the bottom of the Zenith letter you should find it's actually Debt Recovery Plus (same company different scary letter) trying one or maybe two last times to scam you.


    Totally ignorable I have a full set of seven they can't commence legal proceedings they are liars that's how they operate their greedy grubby fake operation.
    • Tirinoarim
    • By Tirinoarim 16th May 18, 4:00 PM
    • 14 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    Tirinoarim
    Thanks all, that's what I thought. Apologies if I appear to be asking the same question, it was just this comment from the "Robustly Respond" link in post #4 that had me concerned...

    But I am now coming to the conclusion that posters should be advised to respond robustly to ANY letter from a debt collector - not just the last one that threatens court action.
    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=4814108
    • Le_Kirk
    • By Le_Kirk 16th May 18, 4:06 PM
    • 2,673 Posts
    • 1,538 Thanks
    Le_Kirk
    The unchallenged parking on all occasions prior and afternoon after the alleged offence further supports the validity of the parking at the time of the alleged offence.
    If you were still thinking of sending it - in light of the advice above, you might want to look at the sentence quoted. It doesn't make sense to me.
    • Tirinoarim
    • By Tirinoarim 16th May 18, 4:23 PM
    • 14 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    Tirinoarim
    To clarify, its her own personal space in a company car park. The alleged offence was only for one morning. She parked there for days before without a problem. She parked there in the afternoon without problem. That supports the claim that she was parked with permission on that morning too.

    But having now seen the small print of Zenith = DRP, I'm not going to respond.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 16th May 18, 8:00 PM
    • 57,473 Posts
    • 71,064 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    OMG it's only a Zenith letter. Search the forum for them.

    Laugh at them.

    Back in April you were advised:

    Time for you to re-read post #4 of the NEWBIES FAQ sticky thread.
    Who cares about DRPlus aka Zenith?

    They feature in the NEWBIES thread post #4, exactly where you were advised to read and follow the links. There is a link there in that post, to us laughing at them and their fake names & matching signatures, back in 2012.

    I am constantly amazed posters worry, instead of simply searching the forum & being ready for such utter dross to arrive, to laugh at.

    IT'S ZENITH, LOL!






    P.S. In all seriousness, please, please help us - we ask (for very good reason) for NO more threads about debt letters. No more advice is needed, spare us, we've seen these for a decade and so could you (if you wanted to read back through years of tedious repetition - honestly boring boring boring).

    But if you want, read as much as you like about Zenith here with just with one forum search...

    We ask for no threads about these letters because we are busy with things that actually need advice, (appeals, court defences) and we win them, but would drown if we had to answer threads like this endlessly.

    Please spare us debt letter tedium. No more updates unless a claim arrives (not debt letters).

    From one woman (me) to another, your wife needs to relax.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 16-05-2018 at 8:08 PM.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Tirinoarim
    • By Tirinoarim 16th May 18, 8:29 PM
    • 14 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    Tirinoarim
    Apologies again for not realizing that Zenith was DRP. Apologies for posting again but it was as a direct result of reading post #4 that I became unsure about whether to respond or not. I'll not post again until a claim arrives.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 16th May 18, 8:38 PM
    • 57,473 Posts
    • 71,064 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    And then we will have time to help you to fight & win, if that happens (no risk, no CCJ, no biggie).
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Carmen_Jay
    • By Carmen_Jay 16th May 18, 9:19 PM
    • 4 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Carmen_Jay
    @Tirinoarim

    Your post prompted me to join MSE forums and join in and help with a response.

    I work at a Hospital and have done so for approx 4 years. I pay 30 quid a month for a hospital "permit" just like the other staff members do. They are stuck on our windows in all our cars.

    We have a gravel-pit car park (the one I parked in at the time of receiving a fine from UKPC) and a few random signs (built by UKPC) to state to be parked in a bay (impossible if it's gravel) and to not block road-ways (again impossible as there is not a road even laid out). So - cut a long story short, we all know who drove which car, we blocked each other in and sometimes, not in the neatest of ways but the signage was totally void. We had all read up on UKPC etc and knew they were crooks from day-dot.

    The fines came through thick and fast in November 2016. It was like they wouldn't stop. I ended up getting 3, others got 1 and others got probably 1 per week for 6 weeks straight.

    Fine no. 1 = not displaying a valid permit (definitely was and always am)
    Fine no. 2 = not parked in a bay (definitely no bays as per above statement)
    Fine no. 3 = parking in a road way (same as per above)

    Now when I got the fines I contacted them, provided some evidence re Fine no.1 (got away with it) and appealed fine no.2 and 3 and got my appeals rejected. Quickly this pushed onwards to UKPC. In a nutshell, spoke to them ONCE (young scared and silly) and arranged a payment plan saying I was leaving the Hospital as I got made redundant - not true. They asked where I lived and I tried my luck, told them on-site at the Hospital - they actually took my word for it. So when I did not commit to the "payment plan" to pay off 100£s worth of fines, they sent all these letters (approx 5) to my work address. They did not go out their way to do what you should do and obtain my address where the car is registered to. I never could quite work it out. Somehow they stored my mobile number from the one time I called them with some abuse (this was all UKPC)... then it went quiet January 2017.

    Not until today (May 2018) had I received (first time ever) call from Debt Recovery Plus Ltd (I didn't answer) and a voicemail saying Carmen this is very urgent please call us blah blah blah. And still, until this day (I have moved house 3 times over 3 years but every time AND ON TIME I have changed my license and where my car is registered to) I have not had one letter to my home address nor have I even to this date, received a letter at work - from UKPC or DRPL since January 2017.

    I have read other threads and I think they are back at it just trying to say HEY WE ARE STILL HERE YOU HAVE THIS DEBT AND WE STILL WANT IT. Well they aren't getting it.

    I don't really see any threads about things like this on private land actually GOING to Court but unfortunately, my friend has but this isn't to scare you and this is bearing in mind she got NINE tickets over 6 months. She got her invite through from Surrey County Court (Woking) today. But I feel, you have to be thick to get 9. After the 3rd I just got over myself and parked an extra 5 minutes walk from my office in a "bay" like carpark for staff and just had to leave 20 minutes earlier to get a space.

    Re the court thing - like other posts suggest, it has to REALLY be worth their while (hoping not to jinx myself here) to push this debt away from DRPL - BACK TO UKPC - who will then make the decision as to whether to write it off and forget it OR push it through to a small claims court.

    The girl from my work is going to rock up to court soon and she's kept her own evidence pack since day dot and I actually think she'll win this even with 9 fines. I will keep you posted either way.

    It would be good to know if anyone else had any feedback or experienced the same as me including the fact they never had a hard copy letter through the door and perhaps just a telephone calls. To add: I have blocked DPRL number on my iPhone so I get a missed call and it bounces them straight through to voicemail when/if they contact me now.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 16th May 18, 9:56 PM
    • 57,473 Posts
    • 71,064 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    I don't really see any threads about things like this on private land actually GOING to Court
    Errm, we deal with defences re PPC court claims every day, every week. All the time.

    my friend has but this isn't to scare you and this is bearing in mind she got NINE tickets over 6 months. She got her invite through from Surrey County Court (Woking) today.
    SEND YOUR FRIEND HERE NOW. I HOPE SHE PUT IN A DECENT DEFENCE.

    The girl from my work is going to rock up to court soon and she's kept her own evidence pack since day dot and I actually think she'll win this even with 9 fines.
    Maybe. Maybe not. Please let us help her.

    We win 99% of defended claims - we help with 3 or 4 hundred per annum here - although she's already submitted a defence so we can't change what she's written, we can help with her Witness Statement as evidence & advise her about the hearing.

    There will be a hearing and she will be up against a legally qualified rep.

    Tell her to post her own new thread, not on this thread.

    In your case, I can only assume your outstanding PCNs were issued when UKPC was banned last time, in late 2015:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/11858473/Parking-firm-UKPC-admits-faking-tickets-to-fine-drivers.html

    It would explain why they've never been able to get your address data.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Carmen_Jay
    • By Carmen_Jay 16th May 18, 10:12 PM
    • 4 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Carmen_Jay
    Coupon - thanks for the prompt reply and most of all, supportive reply to "girl at work." I think she is under the impression, she lives in a council block, is a single Mum, has 4 children and her plee is "well they can take a fiver a week from me; they have to accept something." I will copy this forum, ping it to myself @ work and then onwards to her. But yes as you state: she's filled in the paperwork now and pushed it through... I shall advise her though to come looking and searching here but from the assumption I get at work: she's head strong, stubborn and adamant she'll be OK. Sometimes they are the people you cannot help. With regards to money, they are taking her to court for 990£s worth of fines... and they have probably added bits and bobs on top of that so that is quite steep; I don't think I have even heard a parking fine (parking) being that high? You probably have.

    As for me - I was thinking this COULD be the case. Just a few questions then:-

    > Why has it taken DRPL nearly 16 months to get back in touch of me (threaten me) (yes by only means of telephone)
    > If I carry on rejecting the calls (and I discarded the 3-4 early stage letters I got from them back in 2016 so I have no hard evidence) do you think they will give up again?
    > Not my problem they don't have access to my address - surely the DRPL would though why are they not sending me letters?
    > Worse case scenario: if they push this back to UKPC do they then decide whether it goes to court (whether its worth) and then at that point can they go hunting for my address
    Last edited by Carmen_Jay; 16-05-2018 at 10:17 PM. Reason: wrong word
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 16th May 18, 10:18 PM
    • 7,210 Posts
    • 6,714 Thanks
    KeithP
    Just a few questions then:-
    Originally posted by Carmen_Jay
    Carmen, before you go too far off topic, please remember that this is Tirinoarim's thread.

    This is going to get confusing trying to deal with two (or maybe three) people's incidents in the one thread.

    If you want to continue the discussion of either your own issue or the girl from work's issue, then please can you start a new thread in each case.
    .
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