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  • FIRST POST
    • Tirinoarim
    • By Tirinoarim 14th Mar 18, 4:55 PM
    • 14Posts
    • 11Thanks
    Tirinoarim
    PCN for parking at WORK, OWN SPACE, VALID PERMIT!
    • #1
    • 14th Mar 18, 4:55 PM
    PCN for parking at WORK, OWN SPACE, VALID PERMIT! 14th Mar 18 at 4:55 PM
    I really need some help and advice as we're now being threatened with court action.

    My wife started work for a company in Manchester who have an allocation of spaces in a private car park. Weeks prior to the commencement of her employment she was issued with a parking permit (displayed in her windscreen) and her own parking bay/space. She parked in this space for a number of days before the PCN was issued (which was only for the morning), and the afternoon after the PCN issue date, all without problem. The reason stated for the PCN was "Permit Holders Only (ANPR)".
    We responded saying she did have a valid permit, a copy of that permit, and a copy of THEIR photo showing the permit in her windscreen. We received a response that our "appeal had been rejected" on the grounds of insufficient evidence (with no detail of why, or what evidence would have been sufficient).
    She then asked her employer if they could help with this obvious mistake and she was told not to worry, they'd sort it out. Time passed and eventually got a response that in fact they could NOT help and that the parking company was refusing to enter into multiple appeals (despite insistence this was additional evidence to the existing appeal - i.e. a copy of the employers notification of her vehicle registration & associated correspondence etc.).
    By the time the conversation between her employer and the parking company had concluded (over christmas & new year, including a period of 14 days of no-response from the parking company), the 28 day period for the POPLA number had expired.
    A letter was then sent to the parking company saying the PCN was invalid as the overriding and only contract was between her and her employer, which was concluded at no cost, the only reason for the parking companies presence was to deter public parking to incur benefit to those with permission (i.e. the employees with allocated spaces), promissory estoppel, 'a grantor shall not derogate from his grant', etc.
    We have now (yesterday) received a letter from the Debt Recovery Agency threatening court action.
    * Spoken to CAB (local branch) - they cant help
    * Spoken to CAB Consumer Helpline - they cant help
    * Spoken to MoneyClaim.gov.uk - they cant help unless there's a CCJ
    * Spoken to POPLA - they cant help as the number expired
    * Spoken to the employer, they cant/wont help
    * Spoken to a solicitor, they've pretty much run out of ideas

    Something is fundamentally wrong here where a parking company can perform a predatory operation, reject any and all evidence without reason, and bully people into paying the fine because legal costs incurred would be prohibitive (in that it would be small claims and therefore not recoverable).
    Is our only option now to pay the invalid, unjust, false and frivolous claim?
    Can anyone out there please help as this is causing my wife a great deal of stress and upset.
Page 1
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 14th Mar 18, 5:05 PM
    • 57,393 Posts
    • 70,997 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #2
    • 14th Mar 18, 5:05 PM
    • #2
    • 14th Mar 18, 5:05 PM
    We have now (yesterday) received a letter from the Debt Recovery Agency threatening court action.
    So? See post #4 of the NEWBIES thread, that is not something to take seriously! No need to ask the CAB or a solicitor. You are in the right place now.


    Is our only option now to pay the invalid, unjust, false and frivolous claim?
    Heck no!!

    Which daft parking firm is it?
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Tirinoarim
    • By Tirinoarim 15th Mar 18, 8:42 AM
    • 14 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    Tirinoarim
    • #3
    • 15th Mar 18, 8:42 AM
    • #3
    • 15th Mar 18, 8:42 AM
    Its Horizon Parking via Debt Recovery Plus. So I should just ignore their letter/baseless threats?
    Last edited by Tirinoarim; 15-03-2018 at 8:47 AM.
    • peter_the_piper
    • By peter_the_piper 15th Mar 18, 8:51 AM
    • 26,045 Posts
    • 34,964 Thanks
    peter_the_piper
    • #4
    • 15th Mar 18, 8:51 AM
    • #4
    • 15th Mar 18, 8:51 AM
    Maybe its just me but this "Permit Holders Only (ANPR)". is interesting.
    Does it mean they check via ANPR or by man on the ground? The camera would not see a permit so they would have to have the number in a list. If that's the case why have a permit and why did the list not show up the OP's car.
    I'd rather be an Optimist and be proved wrong than a Pessimist and be proved right.
    • Johnersh
    • By Johnersh 15th Mar 18, 9:14 AM
    • 1,020 Posts
    • 1,964 Thanks
    Johnersh
    • #5
    • 15th Mar 18, 9:14 AM
    • #5
    • 15th Mar 18, 9:14 AM
    FWIW my approach is to keep corresponding explains why they are wrong.

    The bat-spit crazy *ahem* responses that adopt a template "computer says no" approach will be highly relevant to your claim for unreasonable costs.

    With each letter set out clearly what information YOU require as to why/how it is that they claim an entitlement to ticket when the vehicle did display a valid pernit - as well as their entitlement to ticket at all (contract documents). Make yourself difficult.

    They rely on streamlined racing towards default judgment. As always, I recommend to forumites that you number each query "this is my third request for this important disclosure" etc. A nice bit of signposting for the district judge as to who is witholding information and indeed the true villain of the piece

    This requires stamina, but in my view is better as you are in essence making plain that you've done all possible to make this go away. Also it makes clear to the PPC that it will be fought.

    Write to DRP and request that the file is handed back to the PPC as you won't be paying and clearly they have no authority to engage in discussion regarding the circumstances of the ticket being erroneously issued.
    Last edited by Johnersh; 15-03-2018 at 9:22 AM.
    "The best advice I ever got was that knowledge is power and to keep reading."
    DISCLAIMER: I post thoughts as & when they occur. I don't advise. You are your own person and decision-maker. I'm unlikely to respond to DMs seeking personal advice. It's ill-advised & you lose the benefit of a group "take" on events.
    • Tirinoarim
    • By Tirinoarim 15th Mar 18, 10:21 AM
    • 14 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    Tirinoarim
    • #6
    • 15th Mar 18, 10:21 AM
    • #6
    • 15th Mar 18, 10:21 AM
    peter_the_piper - Thats what I dont understand. It is apparently "proper" ANPR and checked electronically via a whitelist. So how is it she was apparently on that list for the 6 days prior and the afternoon after the alleged offence?
    If the list was, for whatever reason, updated for half a day with her reg missing/mistyped then a) she wouldnt know and b) there's nothing she could do. Her employer provided proof of notification of her addition to the list, horizon flat-out ignored it.
    Horizon thus far have not given any further details except for "Permit holders only".
    Should I write to them again and request specific details (is this "Pre-action protocols"?).
    • peter_the_piper
    • By peter_the_piper 15th Mar 18, 10:34 AM
    • 26,045 Posts
    • 34,964 Thanks
    peter_the_piper
    • #7
    • 15th Mar 18, 10:34 AM
    • #7
    • 15th Mar 18, 10:34 AM
    Maybe its similar to the double dip ANPR tickets we see where a picture is misinterpreted by the program, eg 1 and I,
    If it was ok before and ok after then its a fault with their system.
    I'd rather be an Optimist and be proved wrong than a Pessimist and be proved right.
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 15th Mar 18, 11:17 AM
    • 36,621 Posts
    • 82,942 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    • #8
    • 15th Mar 18, 11:17 AM
    • #8
    • 15th Mar 18, 11:17 AM
    You should demand a re-issue of the PoPLA code as well, quoting the Alternative Dispute Resolution Act 2015 that states ADR MUST be offered for not less than one year.
    It would be really interesting to get a refusal to that in front of a judge.
    Last edited by Fruitcake; 15-03-2018 at 11:26 AM.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • waamo
    • By waamo 15th Mar 18, 11:39 AM
    • 3,183 Posts
    • 4,212 Thanks
    waamo
    • #9
    • 15th Mar 18, 11:39 AM
    • #9
    • 15th Mar 18, 11:39 AM
    Horizon don't follow through with their threats very often. Take a look here

    http://www.bmpa.eu/companydata/Horizon_Parking.html
    This space for hire.
    • Tirinoarim
    • By Tirinoarim 15th Mar 18, 11:41 AM
    • 14 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    Tirinoarim
    Thanks Fruitcake - had the POPLA number not expired (whilst the employer/horizon !!!!!!ed about), it would have been chased through them and probably not got to this stage. I'll try that next. Should I notify DPR still or just ignore them?
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 15th Mar 18, 12:04 PM
    • 36,621 Posts
    • 82,942 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    You won't get a new PoPLA number, but it is just something else you can use to show how unreasonable these companies are, and how they just ignore any regulations that they find inconvenient.

    You can either ignore DRP, or write to them stating they should refer this back to their clients, as suggested by Johnersh.
    It's entirely up to you.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • Ralph-y
    • By Ralph-y 15th Mar 18, 12:06 PM
    • 2,606 Posts
    • 3,262 Thanks
    Ralph-y
    while you are following all the excellent advice above ...

    please take the time to watch the MP's debate , to see what they think about this 'cowboy industry' (Hansard)

    https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2018-02-02/debates/CC84AF5E-AC6E-4E14-81B1-066E6A892807/Parking(CodeOfPractice)Bill

    Ralph
    • Tirinoarim
    • By Tirinoarim 15th Mar 18, 12:28 PM
    • 14 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    Tirinoarim
    Yeah, they rejected the demand for new POPLA code..

    An appeal must be sent to an independent appeals service within 28 days of the date of the rejection correspondence.

    As this e-mail was sent on 22/12/2017, the time to appeal to Parking on Private Land Appeals (POPLA) has now expired.

    As per the British Parking Association's (BPA) Code of Practice, Point 22.7, the time to challenge the charge has expired and the matter has been passed to our debt recovery agent for collection.
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 15th Mar 18, 12:30 PM
    • 9,203 Posts
    • 8,968 Thanks
    The Deep
    This is an entirely unregulated industry which is scamming the public with inflated claims for minor breaches of contracts for alleged parking offences, aided and abetted by a handful of low-rent solicitors..

    Parking Eye, CPM, Smart, and another company have already been named and shamed, as has Gladstones Solicitors, and BW Legal, (these two law firms take hundreds of these cases to court each year). They nearly always lose) and have been reported to the regulatory authority by an M.P.

    Hospital car parks and residential complex tickets have been especially mentioned.

    The problem has become so rampant that MPs have agreed to enact a Bill to regulate these scammers. Watch the video of the Second Reading in the HofC recently.

    http://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/2f0384f2-eba5-4fff-ab07-cf24b6a22918?in=12:49:41

    and complain in the most robust terms to your MP. With a fair wind most of these companies may well be put out of business by Christmas.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • Tirinoarim
    • By Tirinoarim 15th Mar 18, 2:16 PM
    • 14 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    Tirinoarim
    The Deep
    for minor breaches of contracts
    The point here is, there was no breach of contract. It was a company employee parking in a personally allocated parking space, in the employee car park with an employee parking pass.

    But you're correct, the entire industry is a sham and everything seems to be setup against the public. It stinks.
    • Tirinoarim
    • By Tirinoarim 15th Mar 18, 3:22 PM
    • 14 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    Tirinoarim
    So now I've again asked Horizon to provide evidence/details (and informed them I will not be paying), I have (for the first time) received an automated reply. Coincidence or just a ploy to burn through the 7 day debt recovery deadline!?
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 15th Mar 18, 6:16 PM
    • 2,454 Posts
    • 3,004 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    Who cares about debt recovery timelines? Noone here does. Theyre meaningless drivel.

    Maybe tell them that, as they refused to issue a POPLA code that has not expired, and have refused your reasonable request to do so, you require that they issue a properly formatted Letter Before Action within 14 days. You will under no circumstances make payment to any debt collector under any circumstances, and you will under no circumstances make payment to the operator without a court ordering it. As you, the operator, have refused ALternative Dispute Resolution the only recourse now is to let a court decide.
    • Tirinoarim
    • By Tirinoarim 16th Mar 18, 4:30 PM
    • 14 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    Tirinoarim
    Standard reply "appeal rejected, no further appeals, talk to DRP". Sent request for "Letter Before Action" within 14 days.
    Thanks again all for your advice on this, was genuinely making my wife ill and seriously peeing me off.
    • Tirinoarim
    • By Tirinoarim 26th Apr 18, 5:18 PM
    • 14 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    Tirinoarim
    I've had no response (apart from standard reply above) from Horizon to any of my requests and have now been sent a "Notice of Debt Recovery Assignment". So it would now seem that they have sold/transferred the debt on to "Zenith Collections".
    Whats next, do I try appeal to them (as they should now have authority to engage in discussion regarding the circumstances of the ticket being erroneously issued) or continue to ignore?
    • twhitehousescat
    • By twhitehousescat 26th Apr 18, 5:34 PM
    • 1,263 Posts
    • 1,714 Thanks
    twhitehousescat
    "Notice of Debt Recovery Assignment" yes they have transfered debt recovery to DR+ / ZZPS , however DR+/ZZPS cannot instigate court action

    if the PPC decide for court , armed with your paperwork a judge will laugh at them
    Time pretending I was asleep whilst under his desk , has given me insight to this sordid world
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