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  • FIRST POST
    • r8chill91
    • By r8chill91 14th Mar 18, 9:04 AM
    • 16Posts
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    r8chill91
    Something is not adding up...
    • #1
    • 14th Mar 18, 9:04 AM
    Something is not adding up... 14th Mar 18 at 9:04 AM
    So we completed on a new house in December, it has solar panels but we thought these were decommissioned. We have switched to Bulb energy and send them meter readings every month, since we started the electricity meter keeps going backwards every now and again. It has gone up a couple of times but the last couple of readings have been getting less and less?! Itís also flashing ĎrEdí on the display every few seconds - Bulb havenít questioned this - what do we do?!
Page 2
    • r8chill91
    • By r8chill91 14th Mar 18, 6:23 PM
    • 16 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    r8chill91
    Scratch that, in the depths of the paperwork it does state that we own the panels outright however it is not known when they were installed.
    • House Martin
    • By House Martin 14th Mar 18, 6:48 PM
    • 1,386 Posts
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    House Martin
    Scratch that, in the depths of the paperwork it does state that we own the panels outright however it is not known when they were installed.
    Originally posted by r8chill91
    If past occupier has fiddled the water meter then its an excellent chance the electric meter is fiddled as you say. No one would disconnect solar panels unless the electric is fiddled.
    Under the lower cover he/she would have tampered with the wiring.. Whilst it is like this the meter is prone to overheating especially if the wire used is thin.
    The clever ones replace the wire seal with an Ebay bought one. The seal go s through the screw to prevent removal of lower cover which gives access to the incoming live and neutral cables.
    Occupiers , if they had any sense, would correct the bypassed meter before they left but its surprising how many can t be bothered to do that and new occupiers move in to a bypassed gas and electric meter.
    rED is commonly seen on electric meters with solar panels in the daytime when usage is low and its a sunny day but should never be seen at night. If it is then "reversed energy detected " usually means an internal bypass.
    The last time I saw that on a meter was in the night time with a new occupier who had been in 6 weeks and meter had exact same reading as her start reading..fiddled by former occupiers who never even took out the link.
    The meter needs to be replaced if its been bypassed.
    Last edited by House Martin; 15-03-2018 at 9:29 AM.
    • r8chill91
    • By r8chill91 14th Mar 18, 7:38 PM
    • 16 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    r8chill91
    Ah ok... She seems to have been a crafty little so and so! It was the nephew that was power of attorney and sold the house so he probably had no idea about it all, hence why its still like it now. Occasionally the meter will go up but most of the time it goes down, its a very strange set up! I still cant really work it out. I think I will just call Bulb and try to get them to sort out a new meter if theyre concerned. I had no idea things like this could even be done! How on earth do people get away with just not paying?! Thanks for all your help!
    • zeupater
    • By zeupater 14th Mar 18, 7:47 PM
    • 4,176 Posts
    • 5,394 Thanks
    zeupater
    Scratch that, in the depths of the paperwork it does state that we own the panels outright however it is not known when they were installed.
    Originally posted by r8chill91
    Hi

    How many panels on the roof would give an idea of the installation size as would the inverter model. The model should be on the SMA serial number sticker, the manufacturing date could be there too ... chances are that the inverter wouldn't have been lying around in a warehouse for too long before installation!

    Many installers place their own 'brand' stickers on the inverter ... is there a phone number? ... have a look at the MCS database, it's a large spreadsheet with all installations by truncated post-code, if you're lucky you may find an entry in that which looks like your system's specs to find the rough date of install - alternatively, contact the MCS directly to check ....

    What you're looking for is a certificate number ... if the system has a certificate and it was registered with an energy supplier you should be entitled to receive FiT payments, if this is an early system these could be over 50p/kWh of generation for the next 17 years or more, so not insubstantial - you should also be able to remove the panels whilst renovating & have them reinstalled on the new roof as long as there's no change to the array.

    I'm actually surprised that the conveyancing process didn't highlight the existence of the MCS certificate alongside electrical work certification ... is there anything with the deeds or paperwork you've received?

    To give an idea, if the PV system is registered and is an early install you could be looking at losing a potential ~£500/year for each kWp installed, so if it's a 4kWp (16 panel) system that's up to £2k/year ... a replacement inverter (if necessary) should be around/less than half of that, so it's definitely worthwhile checking before you decide to throw it away or sell it - by the way, no-one else will be able to access the FiT scheme payments under your certification number, so the second-hand value of panels is poor ...

    HTH
    Z
    Last edited by zeupater; 14-03-2018 at 7:51 PM.
    "We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
    • House Martin
    • By House Martin 14th Mar 18, 9:34 PM
    • 1,386 Posts
    • 1,166 Thanks
    House Martin
    Ah ok... She seems to have been a crafty little so and so! It was the nephew that was power of attorney and sold the house so he probably had no idea about it all, hence why its still like it now. Occasionally the meter will go up but most of the time it goes down, its a very strange set up! I still cant really work it out. I think I will just call Bulb and try to get them to sort out a new meter if theyre concerned. I had no idea things like this could even be done! How on earth do people get away with just not paying?! Thanks for all your help!
    Originally posted by r8chill91
    They get away with it because its a privatised industry now and the suppliers are not really interested in people stealing gas and electric. No prosecutions to speak of in the UK.
    Only British Gas run a proper working Revenue Protection Unit. Cheapjack suppliers like Bulb will be less than useless.
    I go to certain streets meter reading in Doncaster where half the street are fiddling the meters and virtually nothing is done to stop them.
    Not to worry though, the losses to the Grid will be picked up by the rest of us in higher prices..just like the smart meter roll out costs..pass it on to the consumer.
    Last edited by House Martin; 14-03-2018 at 10:00 PM.
    • r8chill91
    • By r8chill91 15th Mar 18, 8:13 AM
    • 16 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    r8chill91
    There are 6 panels on the roof and a sunnyboy inverter. There are no dates or installer details on there that I can see but I will call up the MCS people today and see what they can find out (I can!!!8217;t find anywhere on their website to just input a postcode or anything) like I say everything has been disconnected, the isolation switch is just sitting on top of the inverter not connected to anything, there are wires everywhere.

    For the survey we had an electrician come round and sign off the internal electrics but he didnt check anything to do with the solar panels because theyre not in operation and it was stated by the estate agents and solicitors that the panels are not in operation so it wasnt required for the valuation. With regards to any certificates we have nothing and nothing was ever mentioned - it just says in a vendor questionnaire that the solar panels are owned outright but the vendor did not know when they were installed or whether there was any sort of FiT scheme (he was power of attorney for the owner)

    Its all a bit of a mystery but i will see if I can find anything further out today.
    • thorganby
    • By thorganby 15th Mar 18, 8:53 AM
    • 92 Posts
    • 78 Thanks
    thorganby
    If past occupier has fiddled the water meter then its an excellent chance the electric meter is fiddled as you say. No one would disconnect solar panels unless the electric is fiddled.
    !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    The clever ones replace the wire seal with an Ebay bought one. The seal go s through the screw to prevent removal of lower cover which gives access to the incoming live and neutral cables.
    Occupiers , if they had any sense, would correct the bypassed meter before they left but its surprising how many can t be bothered to do that and new occupiers move in to a bypassed gas and electric meter.
    rED is commonly seen on electric meters with solar panels in the daytime when usage is low and its a sunny day but should never be seen at night. If it is then "reversed energy detected " usually means an internal bypass.
    The last time I saw that on a meter was in the night time with a new occupier who had been in 6 weeks and meter had exact same reading as her start reading..fiddled by former occupiers who never even took out the link.
    The meter needs to be replaced if its been bypassed.
    Originally posted by House Martin
    Surely it is very irresponsible for a meter reader indirectly employed by energy companies to post specific and dangerous instructions on bypassing a meter on an open public forum!

    Please explain the following:

    Why rEd on the display should never be seen at night?

    Why rEd on the display usually means an internal bypass?

    Why a meter needs to be replaced if it has been bypassed?
    • r8chill91
    • By r8chill91 15th Mar 18, 9:10 AM
    • 16 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    r8chill91
    Im no expert but just to reply to you thorganby as Im here now.

    1 - I dont think that information is irresponsible - if you are so inclined to break the law and bypass you own electric meter then its nothing you probably cant find on google.

    2 - if it was to do with the solar panels then there would be no reverse energy at night - because there is no sun at night.

    3 - I presume if the rEd is not to do with the solar energy reversing the meter then the next reason would be because of a fault or bypass.

    4 - because if youve bypassed it, that essentially means youve bust it.

    Just guessing but that seems like the obvious answers.
    Last edited by r8chill91; 15-03-2018 at 9:13 AM.
    • House Martin
    • By House Martin 15th Mar 18, 10:16 AM
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    House Martin
    thorganby does have a point about the "specific " instructions on electric meter bypassing which I have deleted.
    I think it was in 2014 when BBC ran a program called Inside Out which ran nationally.
    They followed BG s Revenue Protection team on the job in various parts of the UK.
    In this program they shocked me with revealing methods of bypassing gas meters on the TV for all to see and copy involving the internal cogs in gas meters and also a method used underneath the gas meter which we use a mirror to check for.
    They also revealed how when they caught a fast food outlet tampering the gas meter to the tune of an estimated several thousand pounds.
    One would have thought that a prosecution would have been a certainty given that several thousands pounds of straight theft was involved but all that transpired was a simple rebilling process . The owner even bartered down the rebill for bit of discount for immediate payment.
    So the message was broadcast to the nation on national TV.
    Have a go at stealing thousands but if you get caught ..we want it back ..IF you get caught..No Magistrates are involved, no Policemen no criminal records
    Last edited by House Martin; 15-03-2018 at 10:19 AM.
    • r8chill91
    • By r8chill91 15th Mar 18, 10:25 AM
    • 16 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    r8chill91
    I find it scary how easily things like this are done! I will contact Bulb and see what they say regarding it.

    I have also contact MCS this morning and they have got a certificate for me so the panels are registered - I just have to prove the solar panels are ours somehow. Once that is through we will have to get them reconnected and see what happens from there!
    • thorganby
    • By thorganby 15th Mar 18, 12:48 PM
    • 92 Posts
    • 78 Thanks
    thorganby
    thorganby does have a point about the "specific " instructions on electric meter bypassing which I have deleted.
    I think it was in 2014 when BBC ran a program called Inside Out which ran nationally.
    They followed BG s Revenue Protection team on the job in various parts of the UK.
    In this program they shocked me with revealing methods of bypassing gas meters on the TV for all to see and copy involving the internal cogs in gas meters and also a method used underneath the gas meter which we use a mirror to check for.
    They also revealed how when they caught a fast food outlet tampering the gas meter to the tune of an estimated several thousand pounds.
    One would have thought that a prosecution would have been a certainty given that several thousands pounds of straight theft was involved but all that transpired was a simple rebilling process . The owner even bartered down the rebill for bit of discount for immediate payment.
    So the message was broadcast to the nation on national TV.
    Have a go at stealing thousands but if you get caught ..we want it back ..IF you get caught..No Magistrates are involved, no Policemen no criminal records
    Originally posted by House Martin
    More irrelevant and pointless waffle from you as expected!

    I'm sure that I am not the only person wondering why you have not answered the three question that I asked you in post #27?

    • r8chill91
    • By r8chill91 15th Mar 18, 3:16 PM
    • 16 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    r8chill91
    Thorganby - why are you here if you find the information irrelevant and pointless? House Martin is replying to my posts giving me some more information, which I have asked for, which is perfectly relevant.
    • thorganby
    • By thorganby 15th Mar 18, 3:29 PM
    • 92 Posts
    • 78 Thanks
    thorganby
    Thorganby - why are you here if you find the information irrelevant and pointless? House Martin is replying to my posts giving me some more information, which I have asked for, which is perfectly relevant.
    Originally posted by r8chill91
    The information posted by House Martin was irrelevant to your problem and he obviously avoided answering the questions asked, which are relevant.

    Unfortunately he believes that because he is a meter reader he must therefore be a metering expert, however he regularly posts incorrect information showing just how technically challenged he actually is.

    When a preset level of reverse current is detected by the meter, the rEd fraud attempt warning is latched and this can only be cleared via the meters optical port - Fact.

    If a meter is internally bypassed it is not possible for it to detect reverse current - Fact.

    A bypassed meter does not need to be replaced after it has been bypassed and is effectively out of circuit with no current flowing though it - Fact.

    An experienced meter reader should know all this and posting misleading and incorrect rubbish helps nobody, especially those requesting help on here.

    Obviously this shows that meter readers are not properly trained and during his twenty odd years on the job he has learnt very little.

    You should be dealing with your supplier to resolve your metering problem.
    • r8chill91
    • By r8chill91 15th Mar 18, 5:30 PM
    • 16 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    r8chill91
    Fair enough.

    I have contacted Bulb about it and someone is supposed to be getting back to me. However I have also given them 3 meter readings since being in the property - all 3 less than the previous and they said someone would contact me then and I am still waiting - if nobody gets back to me (which I am suspecting they probably wont since they havent up until now) then what?
    • House Martin
    • By House Martin 15th Mar 18, 6:14 PM
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    House Martin
    Every prepayment electric meter which has been bypassed is taken away as evidence and replaced with a new one. FACT ! and not only is that true but the suppliers charge the thief over £200 for the new meter. This £200 is added to the new prepayment meter as debt.
    British Gas will prosecute after someone has been known to have bypassed meters three times. The bypassed meter info are filed ,photographed and destroyed.
    Gas meters which have been reversed have their internal cogs photographed by an expert ( on the S.coast I was told ) before they too are destroyed.
    New gas meters are charged to the occupier in every case.gas meters with damaged internal shut off valves are also destroyed and replaced with new with similar costs to the electric meters charged to the occupier as debt on a new prepayment gas meter. Credit meters which have been proved to have been bypassed are also replaced for the same reason.
    Whether they actually "need " to be replaced is a different question. In many cases they are scorched, damaged and blackened anyway and it would nt be sensible to reuse them.
    98% of the meters I personally find bypassed are all prepayment meters but on the occasions I have found a digital credit meter in fraudulent use the rED has been showing and the reading has remained static and not advancing.
    Revenue Protection have told me that any sign of rED on a normal digital electric meter which is nt in use with solar panels should be reported to them. Its is quite rare to see rED displayed on a digital electric meter not in use with PV installs
    Have you got personal knowledge of fiddled credit electric meters personally thorganby .You re an electrician I believe are nt you ? seems a bit odd why you re questioning this.
    • thorganby
    • By thorganby 16th Mar 18, 8:34 AM
    • 92 Posts
    • 78 Thanks
    thorganby
    Fair enough.

    I have contacted Bulb about it and someone is supposed to be getting back to me. However I have also given them 3 meter readings since being in the property - all 3 less than the previous and they said someone would contact me then and I am still waiting - if nobody gets back to me (which I am suspecting they probably wont since they havent up until now) then what?
    Originally posted by r8chill91
    You should maintain a record off all of your communications and exactly what info you have provided and keep chasing them.

    I would suggest making regular short videos of the meter display while you cycle though the screens showing the date and registers with the blue button until this is resolved.

    I don't know how Bulb will deal with this situation but they will most likely simply exchange the meter but still want to charge you for energy since you became responsible for the property four months ago.
    • thorganby
    • By thorganby 16th Mar 18, 8:55 AM
    • 92 Posts
    • 78 Thanks
    thorganby
    Every prepayment electric meter which has been bypassed is taken away as evidence and replaced with a new one. FACT ! and not only is that true but the suppliers charge the thief over £200 for the new meter. This £200 is added to the new prepayment meter as debt.
    British Gas will prosecute after someone has been known to have bypassed meters three times. The bypassed meter info are filed ,photographed and destroyed.
    Gas meters which have been reversed have their internal cogs photographed by an expert ( on the S.coast I was told ) before they too are destroyed.
    New gas meters are charged to the occupier in every case.gas meters with damaged internal shut off valves are also destroyed and replaced with new with similar costs to the electric meters charged to the occupier as debt on a new prepayment gas meter. Credit meters which have been proved to have been bypassed are also replaced for the same reason.
    Whether they actually "need " to be replaced is a different question. In many cases they are scorched, damaged and blackened anyway and it would nt be sensible to reuse them.
    98% of the meters I personally find bypassed are all prepayment meters but on the occasions I have found a digital credit meter in fraudulent use the rED has been showing and the reading has remained static and not advancing.
    Revenue Protection have told me that any sign of rED on a normal digital electric meter which is nt in use with solar panels should be reported to them. Its is quite rare to see rED displayed on a digital electric meter not in use with PV installs
    Have you got personal knowledge of fiddled credit electric meters personally thorganby .You re an electrician I believe are nt you ? seems a bit odd why you re questioning this.
    Originally posted by House Martin
    Yet again you have failed to explain your comment that the reverse energy detected warning "should never display on the meter during the night" indicating that you do not understand this in feature in your "I wanna tell you a story" rant that does not help the OP.

    You post about what BG revenue protection would do but BG is one of over sixty suppliers and you regularly tell us that most other suppliers actually do nothing about meter fraud!

    You must get really tired having to constantly balance that huge chip on your shoulder regarding energy fraud and BBC license evaders.

    You post that big six suppliers don't know how to run their companies and how you could do much better. How they have made a big mistake choosing to fit "cheap and nasty Indian made smart meters" etc. etc. etc.

    I know that you have reported previous posts of mine that you have disagreed with and had them removed but I have never reported any post of your as I'm sure that most find them risible, showing your extreme biased opinions and wild assumptions.

    Yes I have personal experience of credit meter fraud but not in any of my properties when I have been responsible for paying the bills.

    No I am not and have never been an electrician but I'm guessing that you final two comments are your attempt at thinly veiled personal insults.
    • House Martin
    • By House Martin 16th Mar 18, 10:06 AM
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    • 1,166 Thanks
    House Martin
    Yet again you have failed to explain your comment that the reverse energy detected warning "should never display on the meter during the night" indicating that you do not understand this in feature in your "I wanna tell you a story" rant that does not help the OP.

    You post about what BG revenue protection would do but BG is one of over sixty suppliers and you regularly tell us that most other suppliers actually do nothing about meter fraud!

    You must get really tired having to constantly balance that huge chip on your shoulder regarding energy fraud and BBC license evaders.

    You post that big six suppliers don't know how to run their companies and how you could do much better. How they have made a big mistake choosing to fit "cheap and nasty Indian made smart meters" etc. etc. etc.

    I know that you have reported previous posts of mine that you have disagreed with and had them removed but I have never reported any post of your as I'm sure that most find them risible, showing your extreme biased opinions and wild assumptions.

    Yes I have personal experience of credit meter fraud but not in any of my properties when I have been responsible for paying the bills.

    No I am not and have never been an electrician but I'm guessing that you final two comments are your attempt at thinly veiled personal insults.
    Originally posted by thorganby
    For some reason you blurted out the other month " I was a racist and a bigot " lol .I accept I can be a bit bigoted, can t we all but I m not a racist so yes I did report that little insult of yours even though you ve been hounding me , and others , for years under various usernames using insulting language.
    I notice that the other usernames you have used in the past have finally been deleted.
    rED should not display on a solar panel properties meter once the sun has gone down and no power is being exported.
    I do have a massive chip about energy thieves especially when BG RPU do a quick survey on only 20 properties in Dundas Rd Sheffield and find 7 out of the 20 fiddling meters.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-25718447 I m also a big BBC fan and hate licence thieves almost as much as energy thieves
    Only Eon , out of the big 6 , are stupid enough to fit the worlds worst smart meter made by Secure Liberty. I have respect for customers who try in vain to self read this appalling cheap meter.
    If you have any problems regarding libellous comments from me ..so su mi !
    Last edited by House Martin; 16-03-2018 at 10:42 AM.
    • thorganby
    • By thorganby 16th Mar 18, 11:37 AM
    • 92 Posts
    • 78 Thanks
    thorganby
    For some reason you blurted out the other month " I was a racist and a bigot " lol .I accept I can be a bit bigoted, can t we all but I m not a racist so yes I did report that little insult of yours even though you ve been hounding me , and others , for years under various usernames using insulting language.
    I notice that the other usernames you have used in the past have finally been deleted.
    rED should not display on a solar panel properties meter once the sun has gone down and no power is being exported.
    I do have a massive chip about energy thieves especially when BG RPU do a quick survey on only 20 properties in Dundas Rd Sheffield and find 7 out of the 20 fiddling meters.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-25718447 I m also a big BBC fan and hate licence thieves almost as much as energy thieves
    Only Eon , out of the big 6 , are stupid enough to fit the worlds worst smart meter made by Secure Liberty. I have respect for customers who try in vain to self read this appalling cheap meter.
    If you have any problems regarding libellous comments from me ..so su mi !
    Originally posted by House Martin
    Once again you are repeating your wild assumptions and accusing me of posting using other user names which I have never done.

    Again you think that you know better than the Ampy Technical specification for the 5224E meter, which proves that your are posting rubbish again.

    The following is an extract from the Ampy 5224E Technical Specification



    Only posting factual information is helpful, so please refrain from posting your silly thoughts and unhelpful theories on the forum as they help nobody!
    .
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