Your browser isn't supported
It looks like you're using an old web browser. To get the most out of the site and to ensure guides display correctly, we suggest upgrading your browser now. Download the latest:

Welcome to the MSE Forums

We're home to a fantastic community of MoneySavers but anyone can post. Please exercise caution & report spam, illegal, offensive or libellous posts/messages: click "report" or email forumteam@. Skimlinks & other affiliated links are turned on

Search
  • FIRST POST
    • Help1234
    • By Help1234 12th Mar 18, 8:38 PM
    • 172Posts
    • 48Thanks
    Help1234
    Joiner broke worktop by hacking grooves with a saw
    • #1
    • 12th Mar 18, 8:38 PM
    Joiner broke worktop by hacking grooves with a saw 12th Mar 18 at 8:38 PM
    Hello,

    We are having a kitchen fitted. We have an oak worktop and we asked our joiner if he could put in 5 drainer grooves next to the sink. He spent about 3 hours doing this then came to tell me his saw had broke while he was doing it and caused damage to the wood in the process which wasn’t repairable. I have therefore ordered a new worktop. He’s due to start again with it tomorrow but I am worried. The grooves he created before this happened are extremely deep and not completely equal/identical. I have since googled this and have seen people create much better grooves - the kind I am after not using a saw but instead using this sander thing called a router.

    I am really worried what should I say to him? Should I ask him to buy this equipment? Im sure he will refuse or make me pay for it. I’m stuck currently with half a kitchen in place.
Page 2
    • Norman Castle
    • By Norman Castle 14th Mar 18, 9:03 AM
    • 6,965 Posts
    • 5,729 Thanks
    Norman Castle
    I am really worried what should I say to him?
    Try, "You're fired"
    Don't harass a hippie. You'll get bad karma.

    Never trust a newbie with a rtb tale.
    • rach_k
    • By rach_k 14th Mar 18, 9:06 AM
    • 1,233 Posts
    • 2,101 Thanks
    rach_k
    Yikes! I'd agree with previous posters that it may be a blessing in disguise - I wouldn't drain anything on my oak worktops, with or without grooves, as even when treated you still need to wipe up spills fairly quickly to keep the wood nice. In fact, I think grooves would make it more difficult to care for as it'll be hard to dry them properly.

    Could you get a different work top for just around the sink? I've seen that done and it can look nice if you go for something that contrasts with the wood. Or get a drainer with a tray, or one that sits in/on your sink if it's big enough. I use one of these: http://www.ikea.com/gb/en/products/kitchen-products/kitchen-taps-sinks/domsj%C3%B6-colander-stainless-steel-art-20267338/ (says it's a colander but perfect as a drainer in my Ikea sink!), or you can get ones that hook into a bar on the wall with a tray underneath.
    • Richard Overton 2911
    • By Richard Overton 2911 14th Mar 18, 5:05 PM
    • 103 Posts
    • 791 Thanks
    Richard Overton 2911
    Can't add much more than hasn't already been said.

    The issue with these types of worktops is they are constructed from poor grades of timber and you should never ever use Sapwood because it rots very easily and before you know it you will have black mould . The Oak end grain around an underslung sink is asking for trouble because water will easily be drawn up the end grain and before long you will see black stains which is the tanic acid in the Oak and you cannot get rid of it.. If good quality Oak is used and made from long wide boards it can work well, look good and have the advantage over granite etc of being able to re-sand ,oil and look like new.. The problem is all these companies that sell "cheap solid Oak" worktops which just won't stand up long term. Any company selling Oak worktops that contain sapwood should be run out of town. With underslung/Belfast type sinks I would avoid all timber worktops apart from Iroko and only use other timbers for worktops with insert sinks.

    The "Joiner" or "Carpenter" who did the job is not a tradesman because every Joiner or Carpenter would work out how to run drainage flutes even if he had never done them before. Even You tube can teach someone how to run them with a router with a guide bush ,flute cutter and straight edge.

    Sorry OP that you have had a bad experience and hope you get it sorted...... Just to add I would recommend OSMO Worktop Oil for all timber worktops which is an excellent product and comes in either Matt or Satin finish.
    Last edited by Richard Overton 2911; 14-03-2018 at 5:11 PM.
    • Slinky
    • By Slinky 14th Mar 18, 5:09 PM
    • 5,199 Posts
    • 24,031 Thanks
    Slinky
    IMO wooden worktops in kitchens look lovely in pictures... and that's where they are best left. Life's too short for the maintenance required.
    • Help1234
    • By Help1234 14th Mar 18, 5:45 PM
    • 172 Posts
    • 48 Thanks
    Help1234
    Update - for anyone interested. He came back and fitted the new worktop without any grooves. He estimated this job would take him and his colleague 2 days but he is on day 4 and it!!!8217;s still not complete. He hasn!!!8217;t done the upstands and we also asked him to install a windowsill and box in the pipes with wood we bought. After day 3 he asked for £500 out of the £800 for the job which I paid. He has now asked for the full remaining balance and is very unhappy the job has taken so long and said he has made no money from this job. I can get someone else to do the window sill and box in the pipes but I really want him to install the upstands. He!!!8217;s paying for the worktop and has charged me £50 for some bits and pieces he had to buy so the remaining balance left to pay was £215. I!!!8217;ve paid him £115 and said the rest will come when the job is finished. He!!!8217;s not responded. He also took all his tools so I!!!8217;m not sure he!!!8217;s coming back. Worryingly though he didn!!!8217;t give our key back so I think we may need to change the locks.
    • Furts
    • By Furts 14th Mar 18, 6:29 PM
    • 4,240 Posts
    • 2,746 Thanks
    Furts
    Update - for anyone interested. He came back and fitted the new worktop without any grooves.
    Originally posted by Help1234

    Which means your draining board will be discharging water down the front face of your base unit doors and drawers. A recipe for a short life kitchen.


    Was the overhang sorted at the Belfast Sink?
    • Jackmydad
    • By Jackmydad 14th Mar 18, 6:30 PM
    • 2,502 Posts
    • 7,491 Thanks
    Jackmydad
    Update - for anyone interested. He came back and fitted the new worktop without any grooves. He estimated this job would take him and his colleague 2 days but he is on day 4 and it!!!8217;s still not complete. He hasn!!!8217;t done the upstands and we also asked him to install a windowsill and box in the pipes with wood we bought. After day 3 he asked for £500 out of the £800 for the job which I paid. He has now asked for the full remaining balance and is very unhappy the job has taken so long and said he has made no money from this job. I can get someone else to do the window sill and box in the pipes but I really want him to install the upstands. He!!!8217;s paying for the worktop and has charged me £50 for some bits and pieces he had to buy so the remaining balance left to pay was £215. I!!!8217;ve paid him £115 and said the rest will come when the job is finished. He!!!8217;s not responded. He also took all his tools so I!!!8217;m not sure he!!!8217;s coming back. Worryingly though he didn!!!8217;t give our key back so I think we may need to change the locks.
    Originally posted by Help1234
    I'd definitely change the locks. I'd bill him for them as well. Really!
    "Luck happens where hard work meets opportunity"
    • Norman Castle
    • By Norman Castle 14th Mar 18, 6:57 PM
    • 6,965 Posts
    • 5,729 Thanks
    Norman Castle
    He also took all his tools so I!!!8217;m not sure he!!!8217;s coming back. Worryingly though he didn!!!8217;t give our key back so I think we may need to change the locks.
    Originally posted by Help1234
    I'd change the locks to stop him coming back. He doesn't know what he is doing.
    Don't harass a hippie. You'll get bad karma.

    Never trust a newbie with a rtb tale.
    • Furts
    • By Furts 14th Mar 18, 8:08 PM
    • 4,240 Posts
    • 2,746 Thanks
    Furts
    Update - for anyone interested. He came back and fitted the new worktop without any grooves. He estimated this job would take him and his colleague 2 days but he is on day 4 and it!!!8217;s still not complete. He hasn!!!8217;t done the upstands and we also asked him to install a windowsill and box in the pipes with wood we bought. After day 3 he asked for £500 out of the £800 for the job which I paid. He has now asked for the full remaining balance and is very unhappy the job has taken so long and said he has made no money from this job. I can get someone else to do the window sill and box in the pipes but I really want him to install the upstands. He!!!8217;s paying for the worktop and has charged me £50 for some bits and pieces he had to buy so the remaining balance left to pay was £215. I!!!8217;ve paid him £115 and said the rest will come when the job is finished. He!!!8217;s not responded. He also took all his tools so I!!!8217;m not sure he!!!8217;s coming back. Worryingly though he didn!!!8217;t give our key back so I think we may need to change the locks.
    Originally posted by Help1234
    We still do not know about materials supply in particular who chose, and who sourced the appalling worktop.

    What we do know is the job was meant to take four man days. In these days the crew paid for transport, insurance, holidays, sickness, accountants charges, an income, everything else and were meant to show a profit. This was to all be achieved by OP paying £200 per day.

    The job is bad, but come along OP either be more up front with everybody on the costings or simply accept that if you pay peanuts you run the risk of monkeys doing your work.
    • Help1234
    • By Help1234 14th Mar 18, 9:42 PM
    • 172 Posts
    • 48 Thanks
    Help1234
    The job is bad, but come along OP either be more up front with everybody on the costings or simply accept that if you pay peanuts you run the risk of monkeys doing your work.
    Originally posted by Furts
    What are you talking about? I got 3 different quotes for labour only and all came in at that price. Nice try turning their botch job round on me and making me the bad person. I gave them the job in good faith that they wouldn’t hack my worktop to death. At no point have I “not been up front” about money. No one has at any point asked me about costs but I have volunteered that information myself anyway earlier on. £800 for what was supposed to be for 2 days I did not think was bad and I didn’t know when this was quoted to me that two men would be doing the job. This is my first home and I apologise for being a novice, but you Furts are an internet troll.
    Last edited by Help1234; 14-03-2018 at 9:48 PM.
    • Pdbaggett
    • By Pdbaggett 15th Mar 18, 2:46 AM
    • 89 Posts
    • 66 Thanks
    Pdbaggett
    What are you talking about? I got 3 different quotes for labour only and all came in at that price. Nice try turning their botch job round on me and making me the bad person. I gave them the job in good faith that they wouldn’t hack my worktop to death. At no point have I “not been up front” about money. No one has at any point asked me about costs but I have volunteered that information myself anyway earlier on. £800 for what was supposed to be for 2 days I did not think was bad and I didn’t know when this was quoted to me that two men would be doing the job. This is my first home and I apologise for being a novice, but you Furts are an internet troll.
    Originally posted by Help1234
    I wouldn't pay a great deal of attention to be honest, people seem to regard anything that doesn't cost absolute thousands as paying peanuts on here for some reason. Also some posters just seem overtly angry in general.

    £270 a day for a chippy and helper is average in my area so your price seems fair.
    • Tom99
    • By Tom99 15th Mar 18, 3:47 AM
    • 2,070 Posts
    • 1,393 Thanks
    Tom99
    I paid £380 for two men for one day to fit worktop and build an oven housing, fit new tap.
    • Furts
    • By Furts 15th Mar 18, 7:31 AM
    • 4,240 Posts
    • 2,746 Thanks
    Furts
    What are you talking about? I got 3 different quotes for labour only and all came in at that price. Nice try turning their botch job round on me and making me the bad person. I gave them the job in good faith that they wouldn’t hack my worktop to death. At no point have I “not been up front” about money. No one has at any point asked me about costs but I have volunteered that information myself anyway earlier on. £800 for what was supposed to be for 2 days I did not think was bad and I didn’t know when this was quoted to me that two men would be doing the job. This is my first home and I apologise for being a novice, but you Furts are an internet troll.
    Originally posted by Help1234
    I suggest you ask some deep and searching questions. Then say " I have learnt something from this experience" Education is never cheap, but if you do not make the same mistakes next time then something positive will come out of all this.

    You have been asked about the overhang - we have no response. You have been asked about the detail at the Belfast Sink - again no response.

    You have been advised not to replace the worktop with the same again - we do not know what you decided.

    We have asked was it labour only or supply and fit. As time ticks along we think you went labour only which is always a risky, if not unwise, decision. Damage to items supplied on a labour only basis is always an issue because the tradesperson has no financial incentive to respect the item.

    We do not know how you selected your "joiners" nor what checks and due diligence you did on them. It is clear you did not ask a simple question which is how many men will be doing the job and how long will it take.

    You have given these men free run of your home, and they have now done a runner with your keys. Not a wise decision, all the more so if they are strangers. Not only is security a concern, one has to ask about safety - what have you agreed in accordance with the CDM regulations and one has to ask how you are managing and inspecting the work.

    What comes across is a poor quality, totally unsuitable, worktop was purchased. It appears no Specification was drawn up for the job, nor any inspection of the work in progress so fitting, overhangs, drips were never part of the requirements.

    The job went wrong, which is not surprising. However you could have gone to a kitchen company, used their expertise, and had a good quality worktop fitted on a supply and fit basis. You would have been present to answer any queries, inspect the work, comply with safety, safeguard your security and retain your keys.

    All this that I am writing is everyday matters. Hence I am pointing this out to you. In return you do not like being told this. I regard all this as being the actions of a careful, informed, consumer, you regard my approach as being that of an internet troll.
    • Norman Castle
    • By Norman Castle 15th Mar 18, 8:16 AM
    • 6,965 Posts
    • 5,729 Thanks
    Norman Castle
    ^ Is the op on trial?

    This "joiner" guestimated two days and quoted accordingly. Its taken four days and he's still not finished and had to replace the worktop.
    A competent fitter would have sorted the details. The op's mistake was choosing this person.
    Don't harass a hippie. You'll get bad karma.

    Never trust a newbie with a rtb tale.
    • Furts
    • By Furts 15th Mar 18, 8:32 AM
    • 4,240 Posts
    • 2,746 Thanks
    Furts
    ^ Is the op on trial?

    This "joiner" guestimated two days and quoted accordingly. Its taken four days and he's still not finished and had to replace the worktop.
    A competent fitter would have sorted the details. The op's mistake was choosing this person.
    Originally posted by Norman Castle
    Absolutely, but OP appears to have chosen an unsatisfactory worktop, so the mistake has been picking the wrong person coupled with the wrong materials.

    But there is the delicate additional area - if we are frank and honest OP probably went about the entire "job" in a less than thorough manner.

    Hopefully OP will learn from this experience, otherwise as good citizens we do not progress.
    • fezster
    • By fezster 15th Mar 18, 8:53 AM
    • 254 Posts
    • 136 Thanks
    fezster
    Absolutely, but OP appears to have chosen an unsatisfactory worktop, so the mistake has been picking the wrong person coupled with the wrong materials.

    But there is the delicate additional area - if we are frank and honest OP probably went about the entire "job" in a less than thorough manner.

    Hopefully OP will learn from this experience, otherwise as good citizens we do not progress.
    Originally posted by Furts
    Furts, none of which you have said I can disagree with, it's all sound advice. But the tone towards OP is completely unwarranted.

    Whilst it may be prudent for a consumer to research thoroughly and plan out everything to the minute detail before employing a professional, it should not be their responsibility. Nor should it be implied it is their responsibility. Not everyone has the time, inclination, or ability to learn the trade in which they are employing someone to complete a job in their home. This is why people employ professionals.

    If OP is to be told anything it is only to vet the person they are hiring more thoroughly in future. Personal recommendation is usually best.
    • Help1234
    • By Help1234 15th Mar 18, 9:35 AM
    • 172 Posts
    • 48 Thanks
    Help1234
    Furts I am not answering a single one of your questions as the sole purpose of your request for these answers is so you can then attack and bash me with them. You need to take a long hard look at yourself and ask why you derive pleasure in causing people upset from your keyboard.
    All I will say is - this is my first home. It was supposed to be filled with excitement and this has been a horrible experience. The joiner I was recommended by the kitchen company and when I then searched for him online I saw lots of people on Facebook recommending him. Yes I don’t know if they are genuine or not. But I am new to the area and dont know anyone myself so this was the best I had to go on. Whoever I went with would have been a risk. I know nothing about fitting kitchens or trade which is why I thought I hired what was a professional.
    • Furts
    • By Furts 15th Mar 18, 11:52 AM
    • 4,240 Posts
    • 2,746 Thanks
    Furts
    Furts I am not answering a single one of your questions as the sole purpose of your request for these answers is so you can then attack and bash me with them. You need to take a long hard look at yourself and ask why you derive pleasure in causing people upset from your keyboard.
    All I will say is - this is my first home. It was supposed to be filled with excitement and this has been a horrible experience. The joiner I was recommended by the kitchen company and when I then searched for him online I saw lots of people on Facebook recommending him. Yes I don!!!8217;t know if they are genuine or not. But I am new to the area and dont know anyone myself so this was the best I had to go on. Whoever I went with would have been a risk. I know nothing about fitting kitchens or trade which is why I thought I hired what was a professional.
    Originally posted by Help1234
    I am not trying to bash you. I am trying to guide you. That is a purpose of this Forum. With this guidance I am trying to infuse a sense of realism. I would love every trades man and woman to be perfect, I would love all materials suppliers to be perfect,and I would love all recommendations to be perfect. Unfortunately life is not like this and we all have to be in the real world.

    None of us can shut the stable door after the horse has bolted. This means you can only look on all your experiences, toss them into a hat, then weigh up what you have learnt from your first home purchase. That way when you next engage trades people, or when you purchase your next home then you will be wiser.

    Folks say you should not be instructing trades people on specifications, on requirements, or on inspection. In a perfect world this might be the case, but in the real world to not do so can lead to many problems.

    I feel for your situation and suggest you get family, a friend, or a colleague, to act as a guide to ease you through your future works.

    Going it alone can lead to all sorts of issues. Go forward with a mindset, and a strategy to avoid the "horrible experience" you have so far encountered.
    • Help1234
    • By Help1234 15th Mar 18, 12:16 PM
    • 172 Posts
    • 48 Thanks
    Help1234
    Thank you Furts, I appreciate that more considered response.
    Best wishes
    • SuzieSue
    • By SuzieSue 15th Mar 18, 12:34 PM
    • 3,822 Posts
    • 4,044 Thanks
    SuzieSue
    Thank you Furts, I appreciate that more considered response.
    Best wishes
    Originally posted by Help1234
    Yes what Furts is saying is correct and unfortunately, a lot of people (me included) only learn by making expensive mistakes.

    I wish this forum (and Furts) had been around when I purchased my first kitchen. I could have ended up in the same situation as you but I was very lucky that I was allocated a very good fitter (I only saw the nightmare reviews from other customers after my kitchen was fitted). But it was pure luck. I went on recommendation but I should have done much more due diligence. Now I always do.
Welcome to our new Forum!

Our aim is to save you money quickly and easily. We hope you like it!

Forum Team Contact us

Live Stats

55Posts Today

3,034Users online

Martin's Twitter
  • It's the start of mini MSE's half term. In order to be the best daddy possible, Im stopping work and going off line? https://t.co/kwjvtd75YU

  • RT @shellsince1982: @MartinSLewis thanx to your email I have just saved myself £222 by taking a SIM only deal for £7.50 a month and keeping?

  • Today's Friday twitter poll: An important question, building on yesterday's important discussions: Which is the best bit of the pizza...

  • Follow Martin