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  • FIRST POST
    • 50Twuncle
    • By 50Twuncle 12th Mar 18, 3:26 PM
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    50Twuncle
    Does the house count ?
    • #1
    • 12th Mar 18, 3:26 PM
    Does the house count ? 12th Mar 18 at 3:26 PM
    If I ever had to go "into a home" and my wife was left, living in our home (Which is in MY name) - would she be expected to sell up to pay for my continued care (after my personal savings had been used up) or does the value of the house get disregarded because she still lives in it ?
    Also - would I be correct in thinking that my wifes personal savings are added to mine to calculate any contribution that I would have to make ?
    A similar question also - should my wife have to go into care ....
    Last edited by 50Twuncle; 12-03-2018 at 3:37 PM.
Page 2
    • lisyloo
    • By lisyloo 13th Mar 18, 9:31 AM
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    lisyloo
    You can only do this if the property is owned as tenants in common.
    Originally posted by Mojisola
    Thanks for the correction.
    Joint means it passes to survivor on death without going through estate.
    Tenants in common means you own your bit, so goes through estate/will.
    • lisyloo
    • By lisyloo 13th Mar 18, 9:47 AM
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    lisyloo
    so I am just trying to get things straight now - while I still can
    A very good idea.
    It may be difficult to know, but will care visits be a possible option? I believe the max is 4 visits of 1 hour per day which can help with getting out of bed, into bed, washing etc.
    This would allow you to live together at home and allow you wife some daily respite and help with the heavier tasks as well as being cheaper than full time residential/nursing care.
    You may also find that many residential/nursing homes are full of quite elderly people and therefore not the best place for a younger person to live.

    Do you have children? and are you looking to protect the home from care fees?
    As you know you may need care then it might fall into deliberate deprivation, but that's getting to the limit of my knowledge so I can only say that it could be an issue and is something that would need consideration.
    My expectation would be that you cannot give away any of your assets now that you know you may need care and then expect the state to pick up the bill (I'm not implying that this is what you are trying to do jut highlighting the issue). A house is complete traceable, whereas if someone were (for example) to treat their granchildren or wife at birthdays/christmas with cash or more expensive gifts/days out then that kind of thing is difficult/impossible to trace (as well as being a grey area as to what is excessive).

    We encouraged our parents to go on cruises and do things they enjoyed whilst they could and I think that's quite a reasonable thing to do for people of normal health.

    Be aware also that there are a lot of dreadful homes out there, so being limited to a local authority budget is not necessarily something to be aspired to.

    We are lucky that we found a good home close to family within local authority rates, but it's not always going to be possible to find the needs, the standard and the distance criteria within LA budget.
    Last edited by lisyloo; 13-03-2018 at 10:21 AM.
    • teddysmum
    • By teddysmum 13th Mar 18, 2:29 PM
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    teddysmum
    Another point about savings and money in current accounts, where these are joint :


    Each person is assumed to be entitled to half the contents of the account . For simplicity assume that all funds ( £60K) are in one shared account and that the cut off point where the council begins to give help is £23K.


    This means that each person has £30k and they may assume that once the person in care has used up £7K (for care or other necessities), they are down to £23K and will get help.


    However,this is not the case as now the account has £53K,meaning an assumed £26500 each so the person in care still needs to use up more before help is given. In fact until the account contents are £46K in total (£23K each).


    In this way,the couple end up paying £14K instead of £7K which would apply with separate accounts with £30K each,all because the account contents are shared equally .
    • lisyloo
    • By lisyloo 13th Mar 18, 2:34 PM
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    lisyloo
    However,this is not the case as now the account has £53K,meaning an assumed £26500 each
    Are you sure this is correct?
    My understanding is that once one person goes into a home, they are considered as two seperate entities financially (that comes from DWP).
    So I would expect the £30K to get split at that time.

    Can you clarify if your comments from actual experience? or something you've been told by LA/DWP?

    Please don't be offended - just want to get to the bottom of it for our own personal circs.
    • lisyloo
    • By lisyloo 13th Mar 18, 2:37 PM
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    lisyloo
    For care, the one in care's income and savings are used until they reach the council help level,then at just over £14k is reached ,the council pays the lot (at the moment, anyway).
    below £14,250 the Local authority pays
    above £23.350 you pay fees
    in between there is both LA and private payment

    https://www.ageuk.org.uk/information-advice/care/care-homes/paying-for-a-care-home/
    • Danday
    • By Danday 13th Mar 18, 3:05 PM
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    Danday
    Our house is in my name and I asked the same question about the house being counted as all mine, leaving my husband nothing,should I go into care. Someone confirmed that the house would be considered as joint (I'd asked if we needed to put it in joint names) and gave a link to Age UK's advice, which confirms this.
    Originally posted by teddysmum
    I'm not disputing what you are saying, but it still isn't clear. So what you are saying that despite the home being paid for by my wife out of her capital resources years ago the council would deem that half of it belongs to me? I have a document prepared by her solicitor at the time that actually says that I have no right to the home and that I am a sitting tenant only. Worse case scenario my wife has only to issue me with a section 21 notice ??? and I can be evicted.
    This may sound a weird situation but before we married I owned a property outright which I sold many years ago. The proceeds were divided between my three children from my first marriage hence why our current home is my second wife's property which she purchased from the financial settlement she received from her first husband.

    Do you know of any further definitive comments on this please as AgeUK are not showing where they get their info from.
    • 50Twuncle
    • By 50Twuncle 13th Mar 18, 3:20 PM
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    50Twuncle
    This makes interesting reading - which must surely affect many many people - I am surprised that there appears to be no straight forward simple answer !!
    • lisyloo
    • By lisyloo 13th Mar 18, 3:40 PM
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    lisyloo
    the council would deem that half of it belongs to me?
    In general marriage means sharing what you have.

    I have a document prepared by her solicitor at the time that actually says that I have no right to the home and that I am a sitting tenant only.
    This is quite unusual. I think you aren't going to find a definitive answer on your case and may need a solicitor.

    which must surely affect many many people - I am surprised that there appears to be no straight forward simple answer !!
    I don't think so. Most married couples share what they have, so in general marital homes are considered joint.
    If you want to say otherwise I think the onus would be on the individual to prove otherwise.
    • Mojisola
    • By Mojisola 13th Mar 18, 6:15 PM
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    Mojisola
    So what you are saying that despite the home being paid for by my wife out of her capital resources years ago the council would deem that half of it belongs to me?

    If you had to go into residential care and your wife continued to live in the house, the value of the house wouldn't counted.

    If your wife were to need residential care and you were to stay in the house, the value of the house wouldn't be counted in the financial assessment.

    If you were both to need residential care, the total value of the house would be included in your wife's assessment.

    If your wife died and left the house to someone other than you (although you continued to live there) and you then needed care, the value of the house would not be counted as you wouldn't own it.


    I have a document prepared by her solicitor at the time that actually says that I have no right to the home and that I am a sitting tenant only.

    I'm surprised any solicitor would draw up such a document - both spouses have rights to live in the matrimonial home even if only one of them owns it.

    Worse case scenario my wife has only to issue me with a section 21 notice ??? and I can be evicted.
    Originally posted by Danday
    You're not a rent paying tenant so that doesn't apply.
    • xylophone
    • By xylophone 13th Mar 18, 7:36 PM
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    xylophone
    This may sound a weird situation but before we married I owned a property outright which I sold many years ago. The proceeds were divided between my three children from my first marriage
    A Local Authority may choose to look a long way back in terms of DoA.......

    This is quite unusual. I think you aren't going to find a definitive answer on your case and may need a solicitor.
    Shades of Andy?


    https://www.ageuk.org.uk/globalassets/age-uk/documents/factsheets/fs39_paying_for_care_in_a_care_home_if_you_have_a_ partner_fcs.pdf

    may be worth a look.
    • teddysmum
    • By teddysmum 13th Mar 18, 8:39 PM
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    teddysmum
    Are you sure this is correct?
    My understanding is that once one person goes into a home, they are considered as two seperate entities financially (that comes from DWP).
    So I would expect the £30K to get split at that time.

    Can you clarify if your comments from actual experience? or something you've been told by LA/DWP?

    Please don't be offended - just want to get to the bottom of it for our own personal circs.
    Originally posted by lisyloo
    As I mentioned , people would assume, that is the case and it is with separate accounts.However, a shared account is considered as equal shares of what is in that account, as long as it is joint.


    https://www.moneyadviceservice.org.uk/en/articles/means-tests-for-help-with-care-costs-how-they-work (see lower down the page)
    • teddysmum
    • By teddysmum 13th Mar 18, 8:42 PM
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    teddysmum
    I'm not disputing what you are saying, but it still isn't clear. So what you are saying that despite the home being paid for by my wife out of her capital resources years ago the council would deem that half of it belongs to me? I have a document prepared by her solicitor at the time that actually says that I have no right to the home and that I am a sitting tenant only. Worse case scenario my wife has only to issue me with a section 21 notice ??? and I can be evicted.
    This may sound a weird situation but before we married I owned a property outright which I sold many years ago. The proceeds were divided between my three children from my first marriage hence why our current home is my second wife's property which she purchased from the financial settlement she received from her first husband.

    Do you know of any further definitive comments on this please as AgeUK are not showing where they get their info from.
    Originally posted by Danday
    I don't have any other reference, but the person giving the advice was one of the regulars who has experience.
    • teddysmum
    • By teddysmum 13th Mar 18, 8:44 PM
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    teddysmum
    below £14,250 the Local authority pays
    above £23.350 you pay fees
    in between there is both LA and private payment

    https://www.ageuk.org.uk/information-advice/care/care-homes/paying-for-a-care-home/
    Originally posted by lisyloo
    I know but didn't want to complicate things; hence the assumption of round figures for the two limits for LA help.
    • teddysmum
    • By teddysmum 13th Mar 18, 8:57 PM
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    teddysmum
    The simple solution for a couple is to have separate savings accounts with a small total current account to accept pensions etc if so wished.(move savings out as the in paid pensions will have an obvious owner). The person staying at home could easily move their pension income and outgoings, to their own account, as they will be paying household bills anyway.
    • lisyloo
    • By lisyloo 13th Mar 18, 9:12 PM
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    lisyloo
    The simple solution for a couple is to have separate savings accounts with a small total current account to accept pensions etc if so wished.(move savings out as the in paid pensions will have an obvious owner). The person staying at home could easily move their pension income and outgoings, to their own account, as they will be paying household bills anyway.
    Originally posted by teddysmum
    Not always that easy.
    My MIL is not capable and we need to apply for deputyship.

    FIL is in hospital so not easy for him either.

    One advantage of joint accounts is that it’s far easier on death.
    • NeilCr
    • By NeilCr 8th Apr 18, 8:47 PM
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    • 2,429 Thanks
    NeilCr
    I'm not disputing what you are saying, but it still isn't clear. So what you are saying that despite the home being paid for by my wife out of her capital resources years ago the council would deem that half of it belongs to me? I have a document prepared by her solicitor at the time that actually says that I have no right to the home and that I am a sitting tenant only. Worse case scenario my wife has only to issue me with a section 21 notice ??? and I can be evicted.
    This may sound a weird situation but before we married I owned a property outright which I sold many years ago. The proceeds were divided between my three children from my first marriage hence why our current home is my second wife's property which she purchased from the financial settlement she received from her first husband.

    Do you know of any further definitive comments on this please as AgeUK are not showing where they get their info from.
    Originally posted by Danday
    To ensure it stays
    • bspm1
    • By bspm1 8th Apr 18, 9:53 PM
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    bspm1
    Evening all

    Well I am not going to start another thread to a poster asking them to clarify which statement is true this time. The board would be full of them.
    • Tommo1980
    • By Tommo1980 8th Apr 18, 9:58 PM
    • 375 Posts
    • 588 Thanks
    Tommo1980
    Wonder what happened to aaronlowe....
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