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  • FIRST POST
    • failedcommuter
    • By failedcommuter 12th Mar 18, 2:30 PM
    • 16Posts
    • 14Thanks
    failedcommuter
    Indigo | Train Station | QDR solicitors
    • #1
    • 12th Mar 18, 2:30 PM
    Indigo | Train Station | QDR solicitors 12th Mar 18 at 2:30 PM
    I'll cut straight to it:

    1. Driver received a PCN for "failing to display a valid ticket" roughly 5 months ago
    2. Appealed using the internal Indigo process, appeal was rejected (NB I never received a POPLA appeal number, but I think this is due to the BPA's assessment that it will no longer adjudicate for railway byelaw cases?)
    3. No NtK was received (though during the internal appeal part of it involved providing the driver details which I did give, not sure if this impacts whether or not they are required to send?)
    4. I confess that at this point I did email them stating that I rejected their findings and if they wished to pursue the money the only method I would be satisfied with would be in a court of law, whereby I would put my case against their case for their "invoice" (again probably the wrong thing to do but it did feel good)
    5. I received no communication for the next ~4 months, until now, a letter from QDR arrived with a bill of 208, key snippets from letter include as:
    • "instructed by ZZPS Limited who are acting on behalf of Indigo Park Solutions UK Ltd"
      "Failure to make the payment in full or contact us to discuss the payment of the debt may result in us recommending to the car park operator that the matter be enforced through criminal court proceedings, which would require you to appear before the magistrates court"
      "Please call us on XXXX..."
      "Yours sincerely QDR solicitors"

    RE the letter itself: it seems they have learnt lessons from earlier responses, probably originating from this forum, since they've toned it back to stating factually "if this action were pursued it would require you to appear in court" which is laughably obvious. Equally as funny is that they actually signed off the letter as QDR Solicitors, and did a little signature rather than provide a name, probably following the success of Johnersh's letter response addressed to the managing partner?

    From research on the forums and related sites I gather the following:
    1. If I move beyond six months (approx half a month to go) and I haven't received a court summons, then they cannot (legally) continue to chase me
    2. QDR are a subsidiary of Wright Hassall (I did actually look these guys up and it appears they are both registered solicitors)
    3. I shouldn't respond to them at this point as it would mean that I accept the principle of a contract, though I may have already done this at the appeal stage?

    My questions are:
    1. The letter are being sent to an incorrect address currently (I moved about 2 weeks ago), and though it is great not having to receive them, I do not want to miss an LBC, however unlikely that may be. Should I contact them saying I no longer live there, and what medium is it best to do so (email / call / letter etc.)?
    2. Can I just tell to take me to court or get lost? The basis of this is that they issued a parking ticket for me "failing to display a valid ticket", however the tickets you buy through their app are valid from midnight to midnight (therefore I had a "valid ticket" just not when the guy checked my vehicle? I find it pretty hard to see a court disagreeing with this as an argument?
    3. Assume I did go to court, and lost, what would I owe theoretically? The original PCN of 100 + ? in the way of court costs?
    4. How much longer are they likely to continue to chase me for, and are there any other key timelines I need to be aware of outside of the 6 month window for a railway byelaw to be challenged in court? I've seen somewhere something about after 6 years, but I'm not clear on what cases this would relate to?

    Apologies for not following the script from day 1...
Page 1
    • twhitehousescat
    • By twhitehousescat 12th Mar 18, 2:44 PM
    • 1,378 Posts
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    twhitehousescat
    • #2
    • 12th Mar 18, 2:44 PM
    • #2
    • 12th Mar 18, 2:44 PM
    the letter from qdr/zzps , does it give you "x" days to reply , if you do not , they may kidnap your cat etc ,,,,,,,
    Time pretending I was asleep whilst under his desk , has given me insight to this sordid world
    • financerulez
    • By financerulez 12th Mar 18, 2:52 PM
    • 103 Posts
    • 187 Thanks
    financerulez
    • #3
    • 12th Mar 18, 2:52 PM
    • #3
    • 12th Mar 18, 2:52 PM
    What do they say you did? Breach a byelaw or breach their car park terms and conditions? Or do they try and mention both.

    If it's passed 6 months, there will be no criminal matters, you won't go to Mag Court, etc. so that is good. Not that Indigo bother anyway - they just hit and hope, like in your case.

    Recently PPCs have been trying to blend criminal law into civil law, so there is a question of whether they might have a civil claim against you as you've admitted to them you were the driver. Could be helpful for us to see their wording on their original PCN/correspondence. Never admit to being the driver! Haha.

    1. It may be helpful to give them your new address even though it means they'll have your address, you don't want to miss a LBC. I would avoid calling them, either set up a new email and do it from there, or write to them. Try and get a response acknowledging you've moved.
    2. Without knowing more about their terms and conditions for this car park, hard to say. Photo of the car park t&cs?
    3. You won't go to court and you won't lose.
    4. Civil law allows cases to be heard within 6 years of incident. You're not clear because it's unclear what they are trying to pursue you under. When you post the original correspondence we'll see (hopefully) and it will likely need a complaint to the DVLA for Indigo blending criminal and civil law again.

    You're in a pretty good position, so feel confident
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 12th Mar 18, 2:53 PM
    • 36,819 Posts
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    Fruitcake
    • #4
    • 12th Mar 18, 2:53 PM
    • #4
    • 12th Mar 18, 2:53 PM
    You have appealed.
    They have failed to provide you with access to an independent appeal, which is yours by right in accordance with the Alternative Dispute Resolution Act 2015.

    I would ignore this and then write to them once the six months is up stating that as this is a bylaws case it is now statute barred. Any further contact from them other than to say this matter is closed will be considered as harassment, or word to that effect.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • failedcommuter
    • By failedcommuter 12th Mar 18, 2:53 PM
    • 16 Posts
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    failedcommuter
    • #5
    • 12th Mar 18, 2:53 PM
    • #5
    • 12th Mar 18, 2:53 PM
    14 days, as it happens I already missed this deadline due to the letter being forwarded from my old address

    No threat to my pets / children as of yet - assume this is simply due to the early stage of their threat game though
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 12th Mar 18, 2:56 PM
    • 9,520 Posts
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    The Deep
    • #6
    • 12th Mar 18, 2:56 PM
    • #6
    • 12th Mar 18, 2:56 PM
    If they (or the TOC) wish to take out a private criminal prosecution, if they only have two weeks before it times out, they had better get their skates on, meanwhile, please read this one I made earlier.

    This is an entirely unregulated industry which is scamming the public with inflated claims for minor breaches of contracts for alleged parking offences.

    Parking Eye, COM, Smart,s and a smaller company have already been named and shamed, as has Gladstones Solicitors, and BW Legal, (these two law firms take hundreds of these cases to court each year). They nearly always lose) and have been reported to the regulatory authority by an M.P.

    The problem has become so rampant that MPs have agreed to enact a Bill to regulate these scammers. Watch the video of the Second Reading in the HofC recently.

    http://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/2f0384f2-eba5-4fff-ab07-cf24b6a22918?in=12:49:41

    and complain in the most robust terms to your MP. With a fair wind most of these companies may well be put out of business by Christmas.
    Last edited by The Deep; 12-03-2018 at 3:00 PM.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 12th Mar 18, 2:58 PM
    • 18,035 Posts
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    Umkomaas
    • #7
    • 12th Mar 18, 2:58 PM
    • #7
    • 12th Mar 18, 2:58 PM
    1. The letter are being sent to an incorrect address currently (I moved about 2 weeks ago), and though it is great not having to receive them, I do not want to miss an LBC, however unlikely that may be. Should I contact them saying I no longer live there, and what medium is it best to do so (email / call / letter etc.)?
    You do need to inform them of your new address. Do not call them, a phone call isn't worth the paper it is written on. If by emai, send a bcc to another email address of yours (or a friend/relative) to prove delivery. If by letter then free Certificate of Postage from your Post Office counter (not Signed For/Recorded).

    2. Can I just tell to take me to court or get lost? The basis of this is that they issued a parking ticket for me "failing to display a valid ticket", however the tickets you buy through their app are valid from midnight to midnight (therefore I had a "valid ticket" just not when the guy checked my vehicle? I find it pretty hard to see a court disagreeing with this as an argument?
    My attitude to bullying is to smack a bully on the nose, then see what he's made of. So why not? The worst they can do is to issue a court claim - that will be a first for a railway case!

    3. Assume I did go to court, and lost, what would I owe theoretically? The original PCN of 100 + ? in the way of court costs?
    Depends - if a Mags Court - up to 1,000. If a County Court - about 200 (original parking charge 100, capped legal costs (max) 50, court filing and hearing fee 50. About it. But neither remotely likely.

    4. How much longer are they likely to continue to chase me for, and are there any other key timelines I need to be aware of outside of the 6 month window for a railway byelaw to be challenged in court? I've seen somewhere something about after 6 years, but I'm not clear on what cases this would relate to?
    6 months for a byelaws prosecution - but this would have to be by the TOC, not Indigo, and Indigo can't give the TOC your details because of Data Protection issues. 6 years for an alleged debt under contract law.

    They are conflating both at the moment, but they just can't switch horses at a whim (cake and eating it). They do this to confuse the motorist to get them to cough up, but I believe they themselves are likely to be in their own state of confusion, with their heads wedged firmly up their own posterior.

    I can't see anything, other than ignorable ZZPS/QDR threatening letters, coming your way.

    Please read the opening post in this thread created by an absolute newbie. The issue is completely encapsulated by this excellent analysis and proposal for dealing with it.

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=73963466#post73963466
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • financerulez
    • By financerulez 12th Mar 18, 3:01 PM
    • 103 Posts
    • 187 Thanks
    financerulez
    • #8
    • 12th Mar 18, 3:01 PM
    • #8
    • 12th Mar 18, 3:01 PM
    Ah just reread and seen you're still half a month off the 6 months deadline. I would hold off telling them to take it to court until this deadline has passed - but that's just the overcautious in me!
    • failedcommuter
    • By failedcommuter 12th Mar 18, 3:10 PM
    • 16 Posts
    • 14 Thanks
    failedcommuter
    • #9
    • 12th Mar 18, 3:10 PM
    • #9
    • 12th Mar 18, 3:10 PM
    @financerulez

    1. I will send an email cc'ing another account to act as proof I sent

    2. Car park is a SE railway station

    3. Good !

    4. I will upload the letter without personal details shortly for everyone to digest
    Last edited by failedcommuter; 12-03-2018 at 3:50 PM.
    • failedcommuter
    • By failedcommuter 12th Mar 18, 3:12 PM
    • 16 Posts
    • 14 Thanks
    failedcommuter
    @The Deep

    I will certainly aid the cause and complain in extremely strong terms to my MP
    • failedcommuter
    • By failedcommuter 12th Mar 18, 3:18 PM
    • 16 Posts
    • 14 Thanks
    failedcommuter
    You do need to inform them of your new address. Do not call them, a phone call isn't worth the paper it is written on. If by emai, send a bcc to another email address of yours (or a friend/relative) to prove delivery. If by letter then free Certificate of Postage from your Post Office counter (not Signed For/Recorded).


    My attitude to bullying is to smack a bully on the nose, then see what he's made of. So why not? The worst they can do is to issue a court claim - that will be a first for a railway case!


    Depends - if a Mags Court - up to 1,000. If a County Court - about 200 (original parking charge 100, capped legal costs (max) 50, court filing and hearing fee 50. About it. But neither remotely likely.


    6 months for a byelaws prosecution - but this would have to be by the TOC, not Indigo, and Indigo can't give the TOC your details because of Data Protection issues. 6 years for an alleged debt under contract law.

    They are conflating both at the moment, but they just can't switch horses at a whim (cake and eating it). They do this to confuse the motorist to get them to cough up, but I believe they themselves are likely to be in their own state of confusion, with their heads wedged firmly up their own posterior.

    I can't see anything, other than ignorable ZZPS/QDR threatening letters, coming your way.

    Please read the opening post in this thread created by an absolute newbie. The issue is completely encapsulated by this excellent analysis and proposal for dealing with it.
    Originally posted by Umkomaas
    1. I will inform them of my change of address via email

    2. Before asking them to take me to court for the dispute to be resolved, is it worth asking them to clarify their authority & claim against me? I could do this in the aforementioned email when I change address, else I could do it on the following reply in order to string out the next couple of weeks to be clear of the byelaw issue?

    3. I read the excellent post, I just wanted to clarify a few specifics in my case since I know I f'd up some of the process by conceding that I was the driver

    I will upload a word-for-word version of the transcript very shortly for all to see
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 12th Mar 18, 3:26 PM
    • 18,035 Posts
    • 28,573 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    2. Before asking them to take me to court for the dispute to be resolved, is it worth asking them to clarify their authority & claim against me? I could do this in the aforementioned email when I change address, else I could do it on the following reply in order to string out the next couple of weeks to be clear of the byelaw issue?
    That's fine to string it past the 6 month stage, and to try to get them to 'show their hand'. Doubt you'll get anything satisfactory in reply (if you get one!).
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • failedcommuter
    • By failedcommuter 12th Mar 18, 3:31 PM
    • 16 Posts
    • 14 Thanks
    failedcommuter
    Correspondence received from QDR typed out word-for-word below (including the questionable grammar)

    As highlighted by others, they are definitely conflating the civil with criminal (i.e. they reference a magistrates court which as I understand it is correct if they were pursuing me under the breach of a byelaw but then make reference to it being a civil claims)

    An additional FYI, the original PCN (which I no longer have) referenced breach of byelaw as the reason for the PCN, so as far as I can see (apart from contradicting themselves multiple times), this means the original 6 month cut-off is the relevant date for me?

    -----

    Dear X

    QDR reference: XXXXX
    Penalty Notice (!!!8220;PCN!!!8221: XXXXX
    Vehicle Registration: XXXXX
    Location: XXXXX
    Issue Date: XXXX
    Parking Event: Failing To Display A Valid Ticker Or Voucher
    Car Park Operator: Indigo Park Solutions Uk Limited
    Outstanding Balance: 208.00

    We have been instructed by ZZPS Limited, who are acting on behalf of Indigo Park Solutions Uk Limited in connection with the recovery of the above debt, which has been incurred following the failure to repay the Penalty Notice detailed above, and we require to make payment in full within the next 14 days.

    Failure to make payment in full or contact us to discuss repayment of this debt may result in us recommending to the Car Park Operator that the matter be enforced through criminal court proceedings. Such proceedings would require your attendance before the Magistrates Court.

    Please call us on 01925 758736 to make payment by debit card, this is the simplest and quickest method of payment or alternatively please send a cheque to the above address, quoting our reference number.

    Please note that free independent advice and assistance can be obtained from the free independent advice organisations in the attached table overleaf.

    We hope to resolve this matter without the need of reviewing your outstanding liability; therefore we look forward to hearing from you.

    Yours sincerely,

    [Signature of QDR Solicitors]

    QDR Solicitors
    • failedcommuter
    • By failedcommuter 12th Mar 18, 3:57 PM
    • 16 Posts
    • 14 Thanks
    failedcommuter
    That's fine to string it past the 6 month stage, and to try to get them to 'show their hand'. Doubt you'll get anything satisfactory in reply (if you get one!).
    Originally posted by Umkomaas
    before I send my email to QDR would you be able to make sure I'm not saying anything that will come back to bite me?

    I write to you in reference to your letter with QDR reference XXX.

    I am not longer resident at the address you have on file (XXX), the new address where I can be reached is XXX.

    In direct response to your letter, which I attach for reference, I do not recognise any debt that you suggest is owed by me to any other third party (ZZPS acting on behalf Indigo). Could you kindly provide the following:
    - Evidence of this claim
    - Evidence you have the authority of the TOC (Train Operating Company) to pursue this particular claim
    - State the terms under which you are pursuing this claim
    • twhitehousescat
    • By twhitehousescat 12th Mar 18, 4:00 PM
    • 1,378 Posts
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    twhitehousescat
    what date was the offence

    what is the date on that letter
    Time pretending I was asleep whilst under his desk , has given me insight to this sordid world
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 12th Mar 18, 4:01 PM
    • 36,819 Posts
    • 83,314 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    before I send my email to QDR would you be able to make sure I'm not saying anything that will come back to bite me?

    I write to you in reference to your letter with QDR reference XXX.

    I am not longer resident at the address you have on file (XXX), the new address where I can be reached is XXX.

    In direct response to your letter, which I attach for reference, I do not recognise any debt that you suggest is owed by me to any other third party (ZZPS acting on behalf Indigo). Could you kindly provide the following:
    - Evidence of this claim
    - Evidence you have the authority of the TOC (Train Operating Company) to pursue this particular claim
    - State the terms under which you are pursuing this claim
    Originally posted by failedcommuter
    This needs to go to the parking scammers ref PCN XXXX, possibly with a copy to Quite Dumb Really.

    That's too nice. You require them, not ask them kindly.

    Or landowner, which is usually but not always Network Rail.
    Last edited by Fruitcake; 12-03-2018 at 4:05 PM.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • failedcommuter
    • By failedcommuter 12th Mar 18, 4:02 PM
    • 16 Posts
    • 14 Thanks
    failedcommuter
    what date was the offence

    what is the date on that letter
    Originally posted by twhitehousescat
    Offence = 27 Sep 2017

    Letter = 06 March 2018
    • twhitehousescat
    • By twhitehousescat 12th Mar 18, 4:08 PM
    • 1,378 Posts
    • 1,853 Thanks
    twhitehousescat
    so 6 mths is up , 27th march

    14 days = 20th march

    i suspect that with there workload , that info would not be passed back to zzps then indigo within the timespan needed

    indigo would then have to pass it back to the train Co


    I would not even bother replying to them , untill the 27/28 th and then only with a sod off letter
    Time pretending I was asleep whilst under his desk , has given me insight to this sordid world
    • failedcommuter
    • By failedcommuter 12th Mar 18, 4:08 PM
    • 16 Posts
    • 14 Thanks
    failedcommuter
    This needs to go to the parking scammers, possibly with a copy to Quite Dumb Really.

    That's too nice. You require them, not ask them kindly.

    Or landowner, which is usually but not always Network Rail.
    Originally posted by Fruitcake

    Good point, I amended to landowner, changed to " I require you to provide ...", then followed up with a line below "If you are unable to satisfactorily answer the below within 14 days then I shall consider the matter closed" for good measure. +14 days happens to be the 6 month limit...
    • beamerguy
    • By beamerguy 12th Mar 18, 4:09 PM
    • 7,569 Posts
    • 10,084 Thanks
    beamerguy
    Quite Dumb Really.
    Originally posted by Fruitcake
    I like that one Fruitcake ..... after all, they are a Wright Hassall
    setup
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