Your browser isn't supported
It looks like you're using an old web browser. To get the most out of the site and to ensure guides display correctly, we suggest upgrading your browser now. Download the latest:

Welcome to the MSE Forums

We're home to a fantastic community of MoneySavers but anyone can post. Please exercise caution & report spam, illegal, offensive or libellous posts/messages: click "report" or email forumteam@.

Search
  • FIRST POST
    • Senseicads
    • By Senseicads 12th Mar 18, 11:39 AM
    • 105Posts
    • 58Thanks
    Senseicads
    Care Assessment and Attendance Allowance
    • #1
    • 12th Mar 18, 11:39 AM
    Care Assessment and Attendance Allowance 12th Mar 18 at 11:39 AM
    My Father in Law has recently had a stroke and has been in Hospital since. Hi is still in a pretty bad way to be honest. Is unable to stand has limited Motability and isn't altogether with it a lot of the time now. He is due to come home soon, and he has been assessed by the local authority that he will need carers to come in 4 times per day. We applied for the funding for the care assessment and they have said that they will temporarily pay for this, pending us applying for Attendance Assessment from central Government. This temporary funding was on the basis that my FIL and MIL's savings were just over 14k. and there would be no contribution required by them. However this has left us with a number of questions that I am hoping people can help out with...


    1. If we apply for Attendance Allowance and get given this, I am thinking that this will push us over the 14,250 bottom limit for the means testing. If we apply and get given the attendance allowance is there any disadvantage to my MIL receiving this? Or will it all be taken off her as her contribution to the Care Assessment? We don't mind this, what we don't want is for the Care Allowance payment to end up costing them more than theAA payment is.
    2. If we apply for AA will it cover the Care Assessment contribution? or will my MIL have to stump up additional money for the Care Assessment payments? If that is the case then do we HAVE to apply for AA as the letter seems to suggest that we do?
    3. We haven't had an NHS care assessment yet. Is it better to apply for this and see if we can fund FIL's care through the NHS(I understand this is difficult to get) however that would mean that we wouldn't have to worry about applying for all these additional benefits.
    4. Lastly the AA form we have seen that we have to fill in refers to the fact that FIL is already living at home and the care already in place. Well ours is in the Hospital still and we have only been told what care he is going to receive. Do we wait until he is home and we can see exactly what care he receives from the Local Authority, or do we fill it in now on the basis that we have been told what care is going to receive, even if it is not yet in place? We want to do it properly and don't want to mess it up.


    Thanks in advance for any help anyone can give, even if you haven't got the specific answers above, any help/tips/advice you can give us on this would be very gratefully received. The whole thing has been overwhelming and traumatic to be honest and we are just trying to get to grips with what we can do to make FIL's days as dignified as possible given the awful condition he has been left in.
Page 1
    • pmlindyloo
    • By pmlindyloo 12th Mar 18, 1:12 PM
    • 11,500 Posts
    • 13,384 Thanks
    pmlindyloo
    • #2
    • 12th Mar 18, 1:12 PM
    • #2
    • 12th Mar 18, 1:12 PM
    This is one of the most informative articles I have read about the financial assessment of care needs.

    http://www.housingcare.org/downloads/kbase/3095.pdf

    It is difficult to comment on your parents' in laws' councils' own policies but as you can see from the article there are certain 'rules' they must follow but have discretion with others. Certainly it is your right to ask for a copy of their policy.

    Have a thorough read as it is good to know what they can and can't do.

    I have seen on another thread that councils do require the client to claim any benefits that they are entitled to - whether this is to do with funding matters I am not sure - probably!

    If you have any other queries then AgeUK are an excellent organisation for help and support
    • Senseicads
    • By Senseicads 12th Mar 18, 1:15 PM
    • 105 Posts
    • 58 Thanks
    Senseicads
    • #3
    • 12th Mar 18, 1:15 PM
    • #3
    • 12th Mar 18, 1:15 PM
    Thanks I had read that document and you're right it was very informative. However it doesn't answer the specific questions that I had above. I was kind of hoping someone would know the answers to these.
    • pmlindyloo
    • By pmlindyloo 12th Mar 18, 1:36 PM
    • 11,500 Posts
    • 13,384 Thanks
    pmlindyloo
    • #4
    • 12th Mar 18, 1:36 PM
    • #4
    • 12th Mar 18, 1:36 PM
    My Father in Law has recently had a stroke and has been in Hospital since. Hi is still in a pretty bad way to be honest. Is unable to stand has limited Motability and isn't altogether with it a lot of the time now. He is due to come home soon, and he has been assessed by the local authority that he will need carers to come in 4 times per day. We applied for the funding for the care assessment and they have said that they will temporarily pay for this, pending us applying for Attendance Assessment from central Government. This temporary funding was on the basis that my FIL and MIL's savings were just over 14k. and there would be no contribution required by them. However this has left us with a number of questions that I am hoping people can help out with...


    1. If we apply for Attendance Allowance and get given this, I am thinking that this will push us over the 14,250 bottom limit for the means testing. If we apply and get given the attendance allowance is there any disadvantage to my MIL receiving this? Or will it all be taken off her as her contribution to the Care Assessment? We don't mind this, what we don't want is for the Care Allowance payment to end up costing them more than theAA payment is.
    2. If we apply for AA will it cover the Care Assessment contribution? or will my MIL have to stump up additional money for the Care Assessment payments? If that is the case then do we HAVE to apply for AA as the letter seems to suggest that we do?
    3. We haven't had an NHS care assessment yet. Is it better to apply for this and see if we can fund FIL's care through the NHS(I understand this is difficult to get) however that would mean that we wouldn't have to worry about applying for all these additional benefits.
    4. Lastly the AA form we have seen that we have to fill in refers to the fact that FIL is already living at home and the care already in place. Well ours is in the Hospital still and we have only been told what care he is going to receive. Do we wait until he is home and we can see exactly what care he receives from the Local Authority, or do we fill it in now on the basis that we have been told what care is going to receive, even if it is not yet in place? We want to do it properly and don't want to mess it up.


    Thanks in advance for any help anyone can give, even if you haven't got the specific answers above, any help/tips/advice you can give us on this would be very gratefully received. The whole thing has been overwhelming and traumatic to be honest and we are just trying to get to grips with what we can do to make FIL's days as dignified as possible given the awful condition he has been left in.
    Originally posted by Senseicads
    I think the article covers points 1 and 2 - you would need to know what 'rules' that local council have which are over and above the mandatory ones.

    Question 4 about the AA form.

    It would be sensible to wait and see what happens when your FIL gets home as Attendance Allowance has two rates - care/help during day or night and care/help during the day and night. It might help if your MIL can keep a diary about help/support during day and night although obviously carers coming in 4 times a day is evidence of his needs for the day part.

    Useful link for completing the form:

    https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/benefits/sick-or-disabled-people-and-carers/attendance-allowance/

    Do make sure that you have any medical evidence of your FIL's condition to send with the form. (Any physio. reports for instance?)

    As regards the NHS assessment you can certainly ask for one. They are extremely difficult to get as I have experienced this with my own mother. You can google for the criteria.

    Hope that helps.
    • Danday
    • By Danday 13th Mar 18, 3:22 PM
    • 354 Posts
    • 63 Thanks
    Danday
    • #5
    • 13th Mar 18, 3:22 PM
    • #5
    • 13th Mar 18, 3:22 PM

    I have seen on another thread that councils do require the client to claim any benefits that they are entitled to - whether this is to do with funding matters I am not sure - probably!
    t
    Originally posted by pmlindyloo
    Yes I have commented on that other post. I don't doubt that the Council will demand that you make a claim for their benefit. But the point I raised was how far would the council go if the DWP refused to give an award or only made an award at the lower rate when the council thinks it should have been at the higher rate. Will they actually force the applicant to appeal and go to a Tribunal?

    It is a worrying situation driven by the greed of many councils
    • Nannytone
    • By Nannytone 13th Mar 18, 3:30 PM
    • 80 Posts
    • 153 Thanks
    Nannytone
    • #6
    • 13th Mar 18, 3:30 PM
    • #6
    • 13th Mar 18, 3:30 PM
    The council will accept the DWP decision/B]
    • lisyloo
    • By lisyloo 13th Mar 18, 4:29 PM
    • 21,836 Posts
    • 10,554 Thanks
    lisyloo
    • #7
    • 13th Mar 18, 4:29 PM
    • #7
    • 13th Mar 18, 4:29 PM
    If we apply for Attendance Allowance and get given this, I am thinking that this will push us over the 14,250 bottom limit for the means testing.
    What they do is an income calculation.
    So for example if he has 350 per week income and is allowed 300 per week to live on then he has 50 to contribute to care.
    The attendance allowance will be added to his income (any pensions, pension credit).
    It might also entitle him/them to higher pension credit.
    I was suprised the allowance was quite generous (around 300 per week).

    If we apply and get given the attendance allowance is there any disadvantage to my MIL receiving this?
    This is part of HIS income for people to attend to his needs.
    For the calculation above it will be regarded as his income.
    Has you MIL applied for carer allowance? pension credit (joint)?

    We don't mind this, what we don't want is for the Care Allowance payment to end up costing them more than theAA payment is.
    That won't happen. It's mathematically impossible.
    They will add up his income deduct what he is allowed to live on and he will pay the difference. It's impossible for you to be worse off.
    If there are costs e.g. washing, bed change, harcuts, chirpody, incontinence pads etc. that need to be paid for you should submit these also. There are rules, but I would submit whatever you have (receipted) and let them rule it in or out.


    then do we HAVE to apply for AA
    Yes. Local authority want DWP to make a contribution to reduce theirs.

    Is it better to apply for this and see if we can fund FIL's care through the NHS(I understand this is difficult to get)
    I am not an expert but to get this (very difficult) his primary needs have to be medical.
    As the suggestion is that he's taken care of by carers (and presumably your MIL) then it doesn't sound like his primary needs are medical as carers cannot carry out medical tasks (like intravenous drips, injections etc.). If his needs were medical he'd have to be in hospital or a nursing home. NHS do not fund "personal" care which sounds like what he is getting (washing, dressing, feeding, applying topic lotions, giving medication, making tea, checking nutrition & hydration, making sure he's ok).

    Do we wait until he is home and we can see exactly what care he receives from the Local Authority
    No you fill it in now. I don't know exactly what the form says but someone should know what his needs are. For example if he needs washing or dressing then he needs to be "attended" for that.
    Last edited by lisyloo; 13-03-2018 at 4:45 PM.
    • Senseicads
    • By Senseicads 14th Mar 18, 8:51 AM
    • 105 Posts
    • 58 Thanks
    Senseicads
    • #8
    • 14th Mar 18, 8:51 AM
    • #8
    • 14th Mar 18, 8:51 AM
    Thanks Lisyloo!


    That was they biggest thing for us, if the care costs contribution was going to cost more than the AA payment, my MIL and us would have needed to have found the money from somewhere else. We filled out the NHS form with the doctor in the hospital, and we had a number of priority areas but we haven't heard anything since about our application. In terms of Care we need carers and he has to have a nurse once a day to give him an injection. We probably won't end up getting the NHS to pay for it hence the worry over the social care and AA payments.


    thanks for responding!
    • Danday
    • By Danday 16th Mar 18, 12:24 AM
    • 354 Posts
    • 63 Thanks
    Danday
    • #9
    • 16th Mar 18, 12:24 AM
    • #9
    • 16th Mar 18, 12:24 AM
    Yes. Local authority want DWP to make a contribution to reduce theirs.
    Originally posted by lisyloo
    Even though after going through the harrowing experience of filling out the form, gathering the evidence, being subjected to an assessment AND the claimant not getting anything for it??
    If I would make something out of it then I would do it, but to have to go through through that so that the council can have it it's not on.
    If I was in that position I would guarantee that no award was made - I'm useless at filling out those forms and as for my ability to stand up to being questioned at an assessment I would tell them that there is nothing wrong with me.
    The cheek of it, if the council want extra money then they should ask the government to make a bigger contribution towards social care and not put people through that .
    • Keep pedalling
    • By Keep pedalling 16th Mar 18, 8:44 AM
    • 5,004 Posts
    • 5,567 Thanks
    Keep pedalling
    Yes I have commented on that other post. I don't doubt that the Council will demand that you make a claim for their benefit. But the point I raised was how far would the council go if the DWP refused to give an award or only made an award at the lower rate when the council thinks it should have been at the higher rate. Will they actually force the applicant to appeal and go to a Tribunal?

    It is a worrying situation driven by the greed of many councils
    Originally posted by Danday
    Greed has nothing to do with it, it is all about the squeeze on available funds.
    • lisyloo
    • By lisyloo 16th Mar 18, 10:59 AM
    • 21,836 Posts
    • 10,554 Thanks
    lisyloo
    Even though after going through the harrowing experience of filling out the form, gathering the evidence, being subjected to an assessment AND the claimant not getting anything for it??
    I can't comment on your personal experience and I'm sorry if it was bad for you, but if you want help from the state then I think they are entitled to establish what you are entitled to. Filling out forms and gathering evidence I can't see a problem with or properly and dignified assesments.
    If you had a bad experience then that doesn't mean the principle of making sure people qualify is wrong n theory.

    I'm useless at filling out those forms
    Have you considered getting help, there are volunteers who can help with this.

    and as for my ability to stand up to being questioned at an assessment I would tell them that there is nothing wrong with me.
    We have been lucky without our social workers in that they know and understand that some people under-report. They also spoke to the family to get a full picture. In our case mum would complain about everything and Dad nothing.

    The cheek of it, if the council want extra money then they should ask the government to make a bigger contribution towards social care and not put people through that .
    I am sure they do ask the government for more money frequently.
    I am again sorry if you had a bad experience but there is absolutely nothing wrong with assesesing what people need and what people are entitled to. Do you simply expect them to pay out to everyone that asks for it without question? It's pretty obvious that cannot happen. Every time we have asked for help it has been INCREASED and they have been very helpful because they KNOW that care at home is cheaper than a nursing home which is cheaper than hospital so ours are keen to help.

    I would suggest you try to find help from a volunteer if you have no suitable family of friends. Age concern might be a good place to start.
    Last edited by lisyloo; 16-03-2018 at 11:18 AM.
    • lisyloo
    • By lisyloo 16th Mar 18, 11:01 AM
    • 21,836 Posts
    • 10,554 Thanks
    lisyloo
    But the point I raised was how far would the council go if the DWP refused to give an award or only made an award at the lower rate when the council thinks it should have been at the higher rate. Will they actually force the applicant to appeal and go to a Tribunal?
    I don't actually know but I think this would be very unlikely.
    Councils are not in a position to judge people's personal care needs, so I doubt they'd even start to dispute any decision unless it was a blatant administrative error like two cases mixed up.
    • Danday
    • By Danday 17th Mar 18, 11:06 AM
    • 354 Posts
    • 63 Thanks
    Danday
    Greed has nothing to do with it, it is all about the squeeze on available funds.
    Originally posted by Keep pedalling
    That may well be the case. But to relieve that squeeze, I do not believe it right that the Council should 'force' claimants to make benefit claims so that any award can be handed over to them. Why should claimants have to be put through having to complete the forms, attend an assessment etc when at the end of that day they are don't actually receive anything in return?
    • Danday
    • By Danday 17th Mar 18, 11:10 AM
    • 354 Posts
    • 63 Thanks
    Danday
    I can't comment on your personal experience and I'm sorry if it was bad for you, but if you want help from the state then I think they are entitled to establish what you are entitled to. Filling out forms and gathering evidence I can't see a problem with or properly and dignified assesments.
    If you had a bad experience then that doesn't mean the principle of making sure people qualify is wrong n theory.

    Have you considered getting help, there are volunteers who can help with this.

    We have been lucky without our social workers in that they know and understand that some people under-report. They also spoke to the family to get a full picture. In our case mum would complain about everything and Dad nothing.

    I am sure they do ask the government for more money frequently.
    I am again sorry if you had a bad experience but there is absolutely nothing wrong with assesesing what people need and what people are entitled to. Do you simply expect them to pay out to everyone that asks for it without question? It's pretty obvious that cannot happen. Every time we have asked for help it has been INCREASED and they have been very helpful because they KNOW that care at home is cheaper than a nursing home which is cheaper than hospital so ours are keen to help.

    I would suggest you try to find help from a volunteer if you have no suitable family of friends. Age concern might be a good place to start.
    Originally posted by lisyloo
    I think that you may have missed the point of what I am replying to. I agree entirely with you as regards seeking help etc, if in making that claim the claimant would receive some extra money. To make the claim simply and only so that the Council can have it for themselves is, in my opinion, wrong.
    • Danday
    • By Danday 17th Mar 18, 11:11 AM
    • 354 Posts
    • 63 Thanks
    Danday
    I don't actually know but I think this would be very unlikely.
    Councils are not in a position to judge people's personal care needs, so I doubt they'd even start to dispute any decision unless it was a blatant administrative error like two cases mixed up.
    Originally posted by lisyloo
    In which case there is no incentive for the claimant to even attempt to put in a half decent claim.
    • Nannytone
    • By Nannytone 17th Mar 18, 4:47 PM
    • 80 Posts
    • 153 Thanks
    Nannytone
    You are missing the point.
    Social care is paid from council tax where is DLA Pip and a a I paid by the if you claim the benefit and make a contribution to the council for that support then you are saving money in your local area that could be spent on other things

    I receive funding for my local council and even return I have to contribute 75% of my DLA care award.

    Do I jump up and down or do I just appreciate the care I received that would cost far and away beyond the contribution I make.

    I think it's really selfish to accept the services and then feel a fronted because you're expected to pay towards them.
    You aren't the only person that has needs and money is tight so do the right thing and climb what you're entitled to instead of having a hissy fit about having to put yourself out
    • elsien
    • By elsien 17th Mar 18, 4:58 PM
    • 16,414 Posts
    • 41,470 Thanks
    elsien

    I am not an expert but to get this (very difficult) his primary needs have to be medical.
    As the suggestion is that he's taken care of by carers (and presumably your MIL) then it doesn't sound like his primary needs are medical as carers cannot carry out medical tasks (like intravenous drips, injections etc.). If his needs were medical he'd have to be in hospital or a nursing home. NHS do not fund "personal" care which sounds like what he is getting.
    Originally posted by lisyloo
    I agree with most of what you have said. However CHC should still consider care at home as an option with nursing care (such as district nurses) going in. For most people the level of care needed isn't practicable to do this. But care at home shouldn't automatically be ruled out, although nursing homes do tend to be the default option.
    Last edited by elsien; 17-03-2018 at 5:01 PM.
    All shall be well, and all shall be well, and all manner of things shall be well.

    Pedant alert - it's could have, not could of.
    • Danday
    • By Danday 18th Mar 18, 12:16 PM
    • 354 Posts
    • 63 Thanks
    Danday
    You are missing the point.
    Social care is paid from council tax where is DLA Pip and a a I paid by the if you claim the benefit and make a contribution to the council for that support then you are saving money in your local area that could be spent on other things

    I receive funding for my local council and even return I have to contribute 75% of my DLA care award.

    Do I jump up and down or do I just appreciate the care I received that would cost far and away beyond the contribution I make.

    I think it's really selfish to accept the services and then feel a fronted because you're expected to pay towards them.
    You aren't the only person that has needs and money is tight so do the right thing and climb what you're entitled to instead of having a hissy fit about having to put yourself out
    Originally posted by Nannytone
    Of course I am aware as to who pays what. You seem to forget that the government also contributes to the councils to provide for care. I do accept your point that every penny saved by the council could be used on other things. So the argument surely is that the government should contribute more to the councils in the first place and not expect the poor patient to go through the back door and climb through hoops to get a better deal for the council.
    None of this is the fault of the patient so why should the patient be told to rectify the failings of the government?
    Look to yourself what do you think would happen if you had not been awarded DLA? Your care package would remain the same. The only difference would be that they council could not take anything off you finacially.
    But are you actually paying for something? Are you not in fact being the middle man in all of this? The DLA is your money yes, and you hand a large proportion of it to the council. It would be different if the council were asking you to give them the equivalent amount out of your savings or pension.Then yes that IS your money.
    • Keep pedalling
    • By Keep pedalling 18th Mar 18, 7:38 PM
    • 5,004 Posts
    • 5,567 Thanks
    Keep pedalling
    That may well be the case. But to relieve that squeeze, I do not believe it right that the Council should 'force' claimants to make benefit claims so that any award can be handed over to them. Why should claimants have to be put through having to complete the forms, attend an assessment etc when at the end of that day they are don't actually receive anything in return?
    Originally posted by Danday
    Although they do not benefit from extra income it does reduce the amount savings that are being used up each month, so it would be silly not to apply for it.
    Last edited by Keep pedalling; 18-03-2018 at 7:42 PM.
    • Danday
    • By Danday 18th Mar 18, 11:48 PM
    • 354 Posts
    • 63 Thanks
    Danday
    Although they do not benefit from extra income it does reduce the amount savings that are being used up each month, so it would be silly not to apply for it.
    Originally posted by Keep pedalling
    Sorry but I don't understand that? What savings?
    At the end of the day this is all about how can councils rake a bit more money in - be it car parking charges or anything else. In this case they have dreamt up a scheme that will enable them to get more money from the government through the back door by forcing the public to make a claim for benefits that will then be handed to the council. No consideration is being given to the public in this - the councils are saying - you want a care package - claim benefits for us. I doubt very much that this is in fact actually legal.
    I do wonder if they have the right to refuse paying for a care package if the claimant refuses to make so a claim despite what the council is threatening.

    Personally I don't care what the councils do, what I would say is that they should look to themselves first, the salaries, expenses etc that are paid to the senior staff and councillors.
    Last edited by Danday; 18-03-2018 at 11:51 PM.
Welcome to our new Forum!

Our aim is to save you money quickly and easily. We hope you like it!

Forum Team Contact us

Live Stats

161Posts Today

1,753Users online

Martin's Twitter
  • It's the start of mini MSE's half term. In order to be the best daddy possible, Im stopping work and going off line? https://t.co/kwjvtd75YU

  • RT @shellsince1982: @MartinSLewis thanx to your email I have just saved myself £222 by taking a SIM only deal for £7.50 a month and keeping?

  • Today's Friday twitter poll: An important question, building on yesterday's important discussions: Which is the best bit of the pizza...

  • Follow Martin