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  • FIRST POST
    • Bear18
    • By Bear18 11th Mar 18, 12:13 PM
    • 7Posts
    • 3Thanks
    Bear18
    CPM ticket
    • #1
    • 11th Mar 18, 12:13 PM
    CPM ticket 11th Mar 18 at 12:13 PM
    I will try to keep this short and not drag on...apologies for any grammatical errors

    Rented a car space through
    ParkLet, on the start of the lease the landlord (Parklet provided landlord details) applied for a permit which he confirmed that it would take a few days to receive, the landlord provided me with a temporary code to use while the permit was in processing, never ended up received the permit from the landlord 4 weeks later received the fine for not display the permit, the landlord had the permit in his possession but now refusing to pay up, denying any responsibility ParkLet also denying liability , ended up making the appeal but no success,
    UK car park management managed to get the registered keeper details through DVLA, the hire company paid the ticket without letting me have any further chance of appealing.
    the registered keeper is Europcar uk
    My question is, as we reached a dead end from both sides (landlord and ParkLet) and I would like to take this further, who should I take my focus on , the landlord or ParkLet?
    ParkLet should have taken the appropriate measures to ensure that the landlord had the permit in his possession from the beginning of the lease.
    Also is there any chance of winning against the hire company for not transferring liability to me?

    Looking forward for your help


    Many Thanks
Page 1
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 11th Mar 18, 12:21 PM
    • 36,631 Posts
    • 82,981 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    • #2
    • 11th Mar 18, 12:21 PM
    • #2
    • 11th Mar 18, 12:21 PM
    If Europcar charged you after paying the scammers, you should contact them and demand your money back.

    I am sure that the Ts and Cs of hire will only mention fines and penalties. A private PCN is neither. Eurocrap are members of the BVRLA trade association, and have been told by them only to pass on the hirer's details to the PPC, not to pay it.

    If you paid by CC, you should put the charge in dispute whilst you battle with the hire company.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • Bear18
    • By Bear18 11th Mar 18, 1:16 PM
    • 7 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    Bear18
    • #3
    • 11th Mar 18, 1:16 PM
    • #3
    • 11th Mar 18, 1:16 PM
    To add to the mix I hired the vehicle with Drover, Drover got it from Brunel, Brunel got from Europcar.
    As I have contract with Drover only, I complained to Drover just to be told that this issue was non negotiable.
    Luckily my bank card had expired last month, so they weren't able to charge me, but now they are chasing me for payment.
    Should I contact Europcar instead as they are the registered keeper ?
    Is worth going to the small claims court against Parklet ?
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 11th Mar 18, 2:36 PM
    • 9,209 Posts
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    The Deep
    • #4
    • 11th Mar 18, 2:36 PM
    • #4
    • 11th Mar 18, 2:36 PM
    This is an entirely unregulated industry which is scamming the public with inflated claims for minor breaches of contracts for alleged parking offences.

    Parking Eye, Smart and a smaller company have already been named and shamed, as has Gladstones Solicitors, and BW Legal, (these two law firms take hundreds of these cases to court each year). They nearly always lose) and have been reported to the regulatory authority by an M.P.

    The problem has become so rampant that MPs have agreed to enact a Bill to regulate these scammers. Watch the video of the Second Reading in the HofC recently.

    http://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/2f0384f2-eba5-4fff-ab07-cf24b6a22918?in=12:49:41

    and complain in the most robust terms to your MP. With a fair wind most of these companies may well be put out of business by Christmas.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 11th Mar 18, 3:13 PM
    • 36,631 Posts
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    Fruitcake
    • #5
    • 11th Mar 18, 3:13 PM
    • #5
    • 11th Mar 18, 3:13 PM
    As yet you have suffered no loss from ether Parklet or the landlord, so I think they are out of the equation, even though they caused the original problem.

    Your issue is with Drover. You need to look at the rental agreement which is the contract between you and them.
    If there is no mention of private PCNs, and only mention of penalties and fines, then you need to tell them you are not liable.
    All they had to do was name you as the hirer and that would have been the end of it as far as they were concerned. After that, they had no liability.
    If they were stupid enough not to know this, it is not your problem. If they want their money back they must ask the PPC not you.

    You need to look into this in detail and quote the relative parts of the POFA 2012 where liability is concerned regarding hire/lease cars, then quote it to them to show why you are not lawfully liable. If they are members of the BVRLA then you should point out the relevant information I gave you in post 2 concerning this.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • Bear18
    • By Bear18 11th Mar 18, 4:43 PM
    • 7 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    Bear18
    • #6
    • 11th Mar 18, 4:43 PM
    • #6
    • 11th Mar 18, 4:43 PM
    Hire agreement from Drover

    8.1. The Renter shall be liable for the following fines ("Fines") and costs incurred during a Rental Period (including the Delay Period):
    8.1.1. any and all traffic offence penalties including parking tickets, speeding fines, clamping fines, bus lane fines and compound
    charges; and
    8.1.2. any tolls, fees or charges including the Dartford crossing toll ("Dart Charge") and toll road fees, and the London Congestion
    Charge.
    8.2. It is the responsibility of the Renter to pay the relevant authorities directly. The Renter must provide a written report of any offences
    committed by him or her during a Booking to Drover and the Owner on return of the Vehicle.
    8.3. In the case of any Fine, the Renter acknowledges and agrees that Drover and/or the Owner may pass on the Renter's details to the
    police or relevant authority, who may then contact the Renter directly.
    8.3.1. Drover is not liable for any escalation in value of a Fine as a result of its being delivered to an out-of-date address. It is the
    Renter!!!8217;s responsibility to inform Drover of any change of address so that Fines may be delivered to them in sufficient time to prevent
    escalation.
    8.3.2. The Renter will be liable for any parking charges incurred at the point of return, unless expressly agreed beforehand with the
    Owner or Drover.
    8.3.3. In respect of Fines incurred by the Renter in possession of the Vehicle at the time of the incident that has given rise to the
    applicable Fine, the Owner acknowledges that it is the Owner!!!8217;s responsibility to submit Fines to Drover to allow Drover to generate a
    transfer of liability request which Drover will submit to the authority that issued the Fine on behalf of the Owner using technology on the
    Site. Drover maintains records of the information submitted to it by the Owner.
    8.3.4. The Owner must submit Fines within one week of their issue date to allow sufficient time for them to be processed. Drover is not
    liable for any Fine or excess charges applied to a Fine as a result of an Owner having submitted it later than one week after the issue
    date noted on the Fine or charge.
    8.3.5. Drover is not liable for any Fine for which liability was not duly transferred or was incorrectly transferred by the Owner without
    submitting it to Drover in accordance with Clauses 8.5 and 8.6.
    8.3.6. Drover does not normally charge an admin fee for the processing of a Fine. Notwithstanding the foregoing, in the event that the
    Owner incurs a fine, charge or admin fee levied by a third party such as a leasing§ company as a result of the Renter!!!8217;s incurring of a
    Fine, Drover retains the right to charge the cost of such a fine, charge or admin fee to the Renter.
    8.3.7. The Owner acknowledges that in the event of their receiving a Notice of Intended Prosecution from any police force it is their
    responsibility to personally return the accompanying form. In such an event the Owner must promptly submit a copy of the Notice to
    Drover and Drover will provide the details of the involved driver. Owners shall not disclose sensitive information of any Renter provided
    in such an event to any third party for any purpose other than fulfilling their legal obligation to the police. In the event of any such
    disclosure, Drover will take legal action against the responsible Owner.
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 11th Mar 18, 5:36 PM
    • 36,631 Posts
    • 82,981 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    • #7
    • 11th Mar 18, 5:36 PM
    • #7
    • 11th Mar 18, 5:36 PM
    Go through it line by line pointing out that: -

    8.1 You didn't get a fine, the road traffic act was not applicable etcetera.

    8.1.2 Not a traffic offence or penalty etcetera.

    8.2 The PCN was not issued by an "authority" but was an invoice from a dodgy private company.



    8.3.2 It wasn't a parking charge (as in a charge for parking such as P & D ticket or paying for a permit). 8.3.2 is a subsection of 8.3 which refers only to fines.

    ...

    8.3.6 Not a fine
    Last edited by Fruitcake; 11-03-2018 at 6:28 PM.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 11th Mar 18, 6:31 PM
    • 36,631 Posts
    • 82,981 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    • #8
    • 11th Mar 18, 6:31 PM
    • #8
    • 11th Mar 18, 6:31 PM
    It is imperative that you find out if Drover are members of the BVRLA. If so, you state what this ATA says about PCNs being sent to the renter, not paid by the hire company.

    By paying the charge for which they had no liability, or right, they have denied you the ability to appeal, which is unfair.

    Finally, if they disagree, you will see them in court.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 11th Mar 18, 6:54 PM
    • 57,473 Posts
    • 71,073 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #9
    • 11th Mar 18, 6:54 PM
    • #9
    • 11th Mar 18, 6:54 PM
    8.2. It is the responsibility of the Renter to pay the relevant authorities directly. The Renter must provide a written report of any offences committed by him or her during a Booking to Drover and the Owner on return of the Vehicle.
    8.3. In the case of any Fine, the Renter acknowledges and agrees that Drover and/or the Owner may pass on the Renter's details to the police or relevant authority, who may then contact the Renter directly.
    The above does not allow them to do this:
    the hire company paid the ticket without letting me have any further chance of appealing.
    Simple. Point that out to Drover and let them suck it up (seriously). Their error. You had NO LIABILITY to report any 'offence' because a private parking charge is NOT an offence, and you appealed it so took responsibility for it. Drover should have done what it says above, it is the only relevant agreement.


    ended up making the appeal but no success,
    UK car park management managed to get the registered keeper details through DVLA,
    Right, so did you appeal as driver, giving your name and address? If so, then UKCPM had NO REASONABLE CAUSE to get the registered keeper data from the DVLA they are NOT allowed if they know who the driver was, and have their name and address. Did they?

    You need to complain to:

    - Trading Standards, for unfair trading conduct
    - Your MP
    - The DVLA for releasing rk details when the parking firm had already got the driver's details.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 11-03-2018 at 7:00 PM.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Bear18
    • By Bear18 11th Mar 18, 7:23 PM
    • 7 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    Bear18
    Exactly what I told them, also I did contacted (Drover) way before they received any contact from UK car management, to let them know not to pay and to transfer the liability to me which they agreed

    Email sent by Drover below

    !!!9734;That is correct, any attempt to appeal a PCN by yourself before we have transferred liability will be rejected. I will request for them to send it to your house and you will then be free to either pay it off or appeal it.!!!9734;

    When I questioned Drover why they did not transfered the liability to me, their answer was-

    !!!9734;Sorry for my delay in replying. When I gave you that information on 13/02/018 I did not notice that you were renting from Brunel.

    Brunel do pay all PCN's as they receive them which means we are not able to appeal any PCN's issued during Brunel rental. I apologise there is not more we can do for you other than charge your account the discounted price of the PCN.

    Firstly in our terms and conditions it states that Drover withholds the right to pay and charge any PCN where the liability cannot be transferred. Secondly it states that if you are renting through Brunel then they will pay all PCN's and we will have to charge your account.!!!9734;

    Furthermore I couldn't find anything related to Brunel in the terms and conditions
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 11th Mar 18, 7:27 PM
    • 57,473 Posts
    • 71,073 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Tell them there is nothing in your t&cs about Brunel being different, and if there is some small print to that effect it fails the test of transparency of terms, in breach of the Consumer Rights Act 2015. Ergo, you are not liable for their hidden small print and will not be paying for their error.

    And this PCN could certainly be transferred and already was the business of the driver only, by virtue of the appeal made before to UKCPM. Tell them if they have an issue with this they can sue you, but they must produce the t&cs they are relying upon.

    Meanwhile, also do the complaints I suggested because UKCPM were NOT ALLOWED to get the data if they already had the driver's name and address in an appeal.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Bear18
    • By Bear18 11th Mar 18, 7:48 PM
    • 7 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    Bear18
    The first appeal was done by the landlord which was rejected stating the appeal need to be done by the driver

    So made the appeal myself again but didn't admit been the driver , probably not the best option I guess , as this led the UK CPM getting the registered keeper details.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 11th Mar 18, 7:54 PM
    • 57,473 Posts
    • 71,073 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Ah OK, that was a mistake.

    When you have a company or hire car you MUST steer it away from ever going to the registered keeper.

    But the first part of advice stands, let Drover sue you if they want to try to recover any money but they MUST show you the t&cs they reckon alerted you to Brunel's terms, and those t&cs must not be hidden in small print.

    Your defence is simple - you did not sign up for this. You did NOT agree to these terms.

    And a general heads up to NEWBIES - never hire a car via BRUNEL, if it is the case that they have t&cs whereby they blindly pay private parking scams. AVOID BRUNEL/EUROPCAR:

    https://www.brunel.com/

    AVOID BRUNEL/EUROPCAR IF THE T&CS SAY THEY WILL JUST PAY PRIVATE PARKING SCAMS.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Bear18
    • By Bear18 11th Mar 18, 8:39 PM
    • 7 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    Bear18
    Now I do realise that,
    Reason I did that way was because Drover agreed to contact Brunel regarding the PCN before my appeal , so I was expecting to deal with ukpcm directly.
    Secondly I should had made the first appeal instead of the Landlord , and I do believe that the landlord had a play in it because when I handed over the PCN he said that he would take care of if, was only after the last rental payment that he got back to me saying that the appeal was rejected and that he was not going to pay up.
    Dishonest person THAT'S WHY YOU SHOULDN'T TRUST ANYONE.

    Regarding the Drover T&CS I can't find anythingrelated to Brunel, I guess I have just to push through.

    Should I email Europcar as well as they the registered keeper?

    Thanks in advance
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 11th Mar 18, 11:23 PM
    • 57,473 Posts
    • 71,073 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Brunel is part of Europcar so I don't see the point of emailing Europcar (same firm).
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Bear18
    • By Bear18 12th Mar 18, 10:43 AM
    • 7 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    Bear18
    Went through the letter that I sent to ukpcm and yes, I did provided my address and my name and stated that all future correspondence to be sent directly to myself, but ukcpm decided to ignore it apparently.

    Most likely it won't make a difference but will make a complaint to DVLA about it .

    Meantime I will keep arguing with Drover/Brunel and see what they have to say for themselves

    I will post the outcome in here once received.

    Many Thanks to the people that took the time to provide advice and information.

    All the best

    Keep safe
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