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  • FIRST POST
    • MegaMug
    • By MegaMug 10th Mar 18, 12:44 PM
    • 4Posts
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    MegaMug
    Confused and upset
    • #1
    • 10th Mar 18, 12:44 PM
    Confused and upset 10th Mar 18 at 12:44 PM
    Hi all.

    My father in law passed away 13 years ago. He left no will, and a debt for which the bank had a legal charge over their house. As my mother in laws health was not good at the time, and neither my husband or his sisters could cope with sorting things, I spent months trying to sort through and resolve my father in laws estate. Eventually all was resolved with the exception of this debt, but an agreement was reached through the courts that my mother in law could remain in the house, and the children, without accepting legal responsibility for this debt, would make payments to enable her to remain in the home she loved. As my husband Has had debt issues, I made the payments from my own account each month, with my sister in laws doing the same, the residual debt would eventually be repaid from the sale of the property. My mother in,law always said she would ensure I wouldn't lose out in terms of any interest etc, and would recieve a settlement from her will. My mother in law passed away 3 years ago. Unfortunately, despite her saying so, she made no mention of any repayments to me in the will, just the fact one daughter who still lived at home could remain in the house for up to 5 years, then it would be sold and split 3 ways. I am dependant on the goodwill of my sisters in law to get back the money I have paid, but this is now in dispute. Also, my husband and I could really benefit from our share of the house. We have no income from it, yet my sister in law who is financially far better off than us is living there rent and mortgage free. She is also invoicing us for a share of the cost of home improvements which we haven't asked for or agreed to. Can we ask her to give us some kind of nominal rent? It is a Big house, and she lives alone. Surely we shouldn't be liable to pay for any uneccesarry works she chooses to have done? We are worried that the situation is becoming more tense each time we discuss it, but it feels like one sister is benefitting far more than either my husband or his other sister. Any input gratefully received. Thank you for reading.
Page 1
    • Yorkshireman99
    • By Yorkshireman99 10th Mar 18, 1:48 PM
    • 4,150 Posts
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    Yorkshireman99
    • #2
    • 10th Mar 18, 1:48 PM
    • #2
    • 10th Mar 18, 1:48 PM
    Hi all.

    My father in law passed away 13 years ago. He left no will, and a debt for which the bank had a legal charge over their house. As my mother in laws health was not good at the time, and neither my husband or his sisters could cope with sorting things, I spent months trying to sort through and resolve my father in laws estate. Eventually all was resolved with the exception of this debt, but an agreement was reached through the courts that my mother in law could remain in the house, and the children, without accepting legal responsibility for this debt, would make payments to enable her to remain in the home she loved. As my husband Has had debt issues, I made the payments from my own account each month, with my sister in laws doing the same, the residual debt would eventually be repaid from the sale of the property. My mother in,law always said she would ensure I wouldn't lose out in terms of any interest etc, and would recieve a settlement from her will. My mother in law passed away 3 years ago. Unfortunately, despite her saying so, she made no mention of any repayments to me in the will, just the fact one daughter who still lived at home could remain in the house for up to 5 years, then it would be sold and split 3 ways. I am dependant on the goodwill of my sisters in law to get back the money I have paid, but this is now in dispute. Also, my husband and I could really benefit from our share of the house. We have no income from it, yet my sister in law who is financially far better off than us is living there rent and mortgage free. She is also invoicing us for a share of the cost of home improvements which we haven't asked for or agreed to. Can we ask her to give us some kind of nominal rent? It is a Big house, and she lives alone. Surely we shouldn't be liable to pay for any uneccesarry works she chooses to have done? We are worried that the situation is becoming more tense each time we discuss it, but it feels like one sister is benefitting far more than either my husband or his other sister. Any input gratefully received. Thank you for reading.
    Originally posted by MegaMug
    You need professional advice by a solcitor with access to the court order and any other relevant information. Without that nobody can help you or answer the questions you pose.
    • getmore4less
    • By getmore4less 10th Mar 18, 2:15 PM
    • 32,040 Posts
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    getmore4less
    • #3
    • 10th Mar 18, 2:15 PM
    • #3
    • 10th Mar 18, 2:15 PM
    "no legal obligation to pay the debt"

    Does the court agreement put an obligation on the children to pay the interest?

    If it did put an obligation on the children did that obligation cease when the MIL died?


    Who are the trustees of the trust set up by the will and what are the terms of that trust?
    • MegaMug
    • By MegaMug 10th Mar 18, 3:22 PM
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    MegaMug
    • #4
    • 10th Mar 18, 3:22 PM
    • #4
    • 10th Mar 18, 3:22 PM
    Hi . Thanks for the responses.
    Yorkshireman99, I have considered speaking to a solicitor, but haven't so far due to costs involved, and also hoping for a resolution beforehand. Obviously, I appreciate it may be necessary in the future. When posting, I was hoping to find some similar situations which may of been helpful.
    Getmore4less, the original debt my father in law was contested by myself when he passed away due to the way in which the money was lent. After months of negotiation, the bank decreased the amount owed, and froze any interest from that day forward. Had the debt not been secured against the property it may well of lapsed with his passing as there were no assets to his estate other than the jointly owned property.
    The will was done by a local solicitor, who is sole executor. I haven't heard any mention of a trust. The solicitor advised us to carry on repayments for the time being, as the bank would be unlikely to insist on selling whilst the monies continue to be repaid. As I understand from the court papers, the debt is against the property, rather than an individual. The paperwork from the time states the children are paying as a goodwill gesture, with no legal obligation, aside from the fact that if we didn't pay, the bank has the right to foreclose on the house to recover their money.

    Thanks for your time
    • gettingtheresometime
    • By gettingtheresometime 10th Mar 18, 3:44 PM
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    gettingtheresometime
    • #5
    • 10th Mar 18, 3:44 PM
    • #5
    • 10th Mar 18, 3:44 PM
    As I was reading your initial post, I was imagining you were going to say you & your husband had split up.

    However as you haven't, I'm assuming (which is always a dangerous thing to do) that you're still together. As a result Im not sure why you're upset re the repayments as the other sils are in the same boat, save one of them is living in the property.

    The other sil who isn't living in the property is, in effect, in the same position as you.

    The only thing I think you can do is get this sil on board & tell the resident sil that as a matter of courtesy, if you are being expected to pay towards maintenance costs, you should be consulted first.

    If they're improvements would they increase the eventual saleability of the property?
    Lloyds OD / Natwest OD / PO CC / Wescott / Argos Card cleared thanks to the 1 debt v 100 day challenge


    Next on the list - JD Williams
    • PasturesNew
    • By PasturesNew 10th Mar 18, 3:54 PM
    • 62,515 Posts
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    PasturesNew
    • #6
    • 10th Mar 18, 3:54 PM
    • #6
    • 10th Mar 18, 3:54 PM
    So many things in there, I'll pick out a few. Some things are not made entirely clear, so I'll just bullet point randomly.

    Father-in-law's debt wouldn't have died with him - it'd have come from his estate, which would have been his house, so securing/not against the house is immaterial. The debt would have remained.

    Did all of the sisters/you pay the same amount towards the debt? If all of the children paid the same amount towards the debt then you'll get your money back when your husband gets his share of the value of the house when it's sold .... it's just for him to hand it over to you.

    Re the interest, it's a shame the mother in law didn't formalise any of that, but that's the way it is re people and wills. They say they've done XYZ but rarely get round to it. On the "lucky side" there wouldn't have been must interest to have been earnt in recent years as rates have been low.

    Re improvements - it's rude to expect you to pay for improvements you've no interest in funding, but, theoretically, you'll get that back when the house is sold in the future.

    While she has the right to live in the house for 5 years, she shouldn't be asking others for financial assistance without a good reason.

    Unfortunately, all of this is a "typical mess left behind" by many people when things get a bit complex and people are working on say-so and promises.

    You do need proper legal advice though.
    • MegaMug
    • By MegaMug 10th Mar 18, 4:52 PM
    • 4 Posts
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    MegaMug
    • #7
    • 10th Mar 18, 4:52 PM
    • #7
    • 10th Mar 18, 4:52 PM
    Gettingtheresometime, For clarity, the SIL still living in the house has never made any repayments, as she was only earning part time at the time it was set up. Despite the passing years and change of circumstances she has never addressed this. The other sil, was still living in the house when this was set up, so she viewed her contribution as almost housekeep/rent, and as she stays there 3 out of 4 weekends now She has continued to pay after she left home to maintain the status quo. She says she feels happy as she has had, and continues to as she stays there each weekend so has some amenity from the property. The home improvements are more in terms of taste and preference, rather than to add value. We have our own family to support and household to run so paying for a rainforest shower for Sil to have, when We cannot afford one in our home seems a little rich to me.....
    PasturesNew. I have paid more than the one Sil who has paid, and the other has paid nothing. Both seem to think the house should be split 3 ways regardless of who has paid what. Although my husband would and could repay me from his share, this would mean his share would then be reduced. My MIL had always said she would want me reimbursed for the time and expenses in sorting my FIL's affairs, but would make provision in her will for that. It was sorted that way as my husband had his own business so income would fluctuate, all monies paid were from my sole account, and after much discussion with MIL at the time. As you say I'm sure it often happens that it doesn't work out that way. Both Sil's have suggested buying my husbands share between them however he cannot agree as they have gone with the lowest house valuation and then deducted invoices for home improvements and have refused to take into consideration the monies I've paid resulting in huge discrepancies between the values. I had so hoped to avoid going down a legal route but think we may have no choice. Thank you again
    • silvercar
    • By silvercar 10th Mar 18, 9:45 PM
    • 37,240 Posts
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    silvercar
    • #8
    • 10th Mar 18, 9:45 PM
    • #8
    • 10th Mar 18, 9:45 PM
    If you consider the payments you have made as being on behalf of your husband, especially as you say he hasn't paid anything, does that make it easier to bear?

    If you stopped paying now, then either the sisters-in-law would have to meet all the payments themselves or the council could decide to take action to force the sale.

    Either way you win. If the sale is forced, your husband gets his share early. If the SILs pay, then that balances the books for the time that you made the most contribution.
    • gettingtheresometime
    • By gettingtheresometime 11th Mar 18, 12:10 AM
    • 3,612 Posts
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    gettingtheresometime
    • #9
    • 11th Mar 18, 12:10 AM
    • #9
    • 11th Mar 18, 12:10 AM
    Gettingtheresometime, For clarity, the SIL still living in the house has never made any repayments, as she was only earning part time at the time it was set up. Despite the passing years and change of circumstances she has never addressed this. The other sil, was still living in the house when this was set up, so she viewed her contribution as almost housekeep/rent, and as she stays there 3 out of 4 weekends now She has continued to pay after she left home to maintain the status quo. She says she feels happy as she has had, and continues to as she stays there each weekend so has some amenity from the property. The home improvements are more in terms of taste and preference, rather than to add value. We have our own family to support and household to run so paying for a rainforest shower for Sil to have, when We cannot afford one in our home seems a little rich to me.....
    PasturesNew. I have paid more than the one Sil who has paid, and the other has paid nothing. Both seem to think the house should be split 3 ways regardless of who has paid what. Although my husband would and could repay me from his share, this would mean his share would then be reduced. My MIL had always said she would want me reimbursed for the time and expenses in sorting my FIL's affairs, but would make provision in her will for that. It was sorted that way as my husband had his own business so income would fluctuate, all monies paid were from my sole account, and after much discussion with MIL at the time. As you say I'm sure it often happens that it doesn't work out that way. Both Sil's have suggested buying my husbands share between them however he cannot agree as they have gone with the lowest house valuation and then deducted invoices for home improvements and have refused to take into consideration the monies I've paid resulting in huge discrepancies between the values. I had so hoped to avoid going down a legal route but think we may have no choice. Thank you again
    Originally posted by MegaMug
    Unfortunately if the will states that the proceeds of the house are to be split 3 ways then that's what's got to happen....regardless of the moral fairness of the situation.

    Whilst each family's finances setup are a matter for them alone, I find it strange the comment you made about your husband's share being reduced.

    Sounds as if there's growing resentment on your part re the payments for whatever reason so perhaps it's a case of telling the siblings (including your husband) that it's time to stump up or sell up
    Lloyds OD / Natwest OD / PO CC / Wescott / Argos Card cleared thanks to the 1 debt v 100 day challenge


    Next on the list - JD Williams
    • MegaMug
    • By MegaMug 12th Mar 18, 5:26 AM
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    • 3 Thanks
    MegaMug
    Hi getting here.
    What I meant by my husbands share being reduced is that his sisters want to deduct both the balance of the loan and the amount owed to me from their share of the equity. When they suggested they might buy him out they detailed this as his share being worth 30k less than theirs- therefore not an even split.
    And yes, I'll admit I am resentful in so much as the Sil remaining in the house rent and mortgage free is able to afford a far more comfortable lifestyle, and is managing to save enough money to be in a position to buy out my husbands share in cash. Given I am paying for her home, as well as my own I do feel some offer on her part would of been fairer. I also resent being invoiced each time she fancys a changing the decor, as I haven't the spare cash to facilitate this even for myself......

    I agree, I think it's time to be firmer and ask if the house can be sold.

    Thanks for reading
    • paddy's mum
    • By paddy's mum 12th Mar 18, 10:29 AM
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    paddy's mum
    It seems to me that you can't afford not to seek competent legal advice!

    Good luck but I suspect you can kiss goodbye to any lasting friendly relationship with the other beneficiaries.
    • gettingtheresometime
    • By gettingtheresometime 12th Mar 18, 12:11 PM
    • 3,612 Posts
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    gettingtheresometime
    Hi getting here.
    What I meant by my husbands share being reduced is that his sisters want to deduct both the balance of the loan and the amount owed to me from their share of the equity. When they suggested they might buy him out they detailed this as his share being worth 30k less than theirs- therefore not an even split.
    And yes, I'll admit I am resentful in so much as the Sil remaining in the house rent and mortgage free is able to afford a far more comfortable lifestyle, and is managing to save enough money to be in a position to buy out my husbands share in cash. Given I am paying for her home, as well as my own I do feel some offer on her part would of been fairer. I also resent being invoiced each time she fancys a changing the decor, as I haven't the spare cash to facilitate this even for myself......

    I agree, I think it's time to be firmer and ask if the house can be sold.

    Thanks for reading
    Originally posted by MegaMug
    Using made up figures, the house is worth 500k and the balance of the loan is 85K and the sisters are saying what?


    That the amount to be split 3 ways is (500k - 85K) or (500K-85K-the value that you've paid in) with the value that you've paid in to be paid to you?


    The way I look at it is that if it's the 1st case then that's unfortunately what will have to happen (and in reality all it means is that the sister who has lived there was jammy enough to do it, effectively rent free) and if its the 2nd then won't you as a couple be better off because you'll have a return of the money you've paid plus a 1/3 of the proceeds (and in this case the sister who lives there in the weekend will be the worse off as she will be the only one who will have paid anything)


    What does your husband say ?


    The way I see it you as a couple have a only the following options


    1. Carry on with the status quo - but this is likely to fester & cause greater resentment then there is already


    2. Tell the sisters you can no longer continue to make contributions to the loan repayments which may or may not result in the bank forcing the issue if the sisters don't take up the slack.


    3. Continue making the payments but tell the sisters that you will only contribute to bills relating to essential maintenance which doesn't include decorating.



    Which ever option is chosen you need to be both singing from the same hymn sheet.
    Last edited by gettingtheresometime; 12-03-2018 at 12:14 PM.
    Lloyds OD / Natwest OD / PO CC / Wescott / Argos Card cleared thanks to the 1 debt v 100 day challenge


    Next on the list - JD Williams
    • getmore4less
    • By getmore4less 12th Mar 18, 2:34 PM
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    getmore4less
    Seems the equitable split will be the original debt gets taken off the value, net proceeds split 3 ways.

    The amount set aside for the original debt gets split in 4 pieces one to pay the remaining debt and the rest returned to the 3 that paid off some of the debt(one being Zero)


    those that paid have a simple debt against the estate that can be documented

    shame the document that said

    The paperwork from the time states the children are paying as a goodwill gesture, with no legal obligation,
    Did not include that the payments were a loan.
    • unholyangel
    • By unholyangel 12th Mar 18, 3:05 PM
    • 12,289 Posts
    • 9,629 Thanks
    unholyangel
    Seems the equitable split will be the original debt gets taken off the value, net proceeds split 3 ways.

    The amount set aside for the original debt gets split in 4 pieces one to pay the remaining debt and the rest returned to the 3 that paid off some of the debt(one being Zero)


    those that paid have a simple debt against the estate that can be documented

    shame the document that said



    Did not include that the payments were a loan.
    Originally posted by getmore4less
    That was my thinking - that if OP can show there was an agreement that she promised to do x and mother in law promised to give them a bigger share in exchange (ie that it wasn't a gift)....OP would have an enforceable debt.
    Money doesn't solve poverty.....it creates it.
    • TBagpuss
    • By TBagpuss 12th Mar 18, 4:42 PM
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    TBagpuss
    Have you (or rather you husband) spoken to the solicitor who is the executor? I would have thought that the SIL living in the house ought to be either paying for the work herself, or invoicing the estate, via the executor, for the work, depending on the wording of the will.

    In terms of your payments, have you (you this time, as you made the payments, not your husband) raised this with the executor, to notify them of this as a debt of the estate?

    Are you still paying towards the debt? If so, you could possibly say you can't afford to pay anything further, and suggest that the house is sold now 9which would be possible if all the beneficiaries agreed)

    What does the will say about the terms on which the SIL can stay there? If the will was professionally drawn up I would expect itto specify whether this was on condition that she keep the property in good condition, insured etc or whether those things were to be paid for by the estate. Does the executor know you are being asked to pay for improvements?
    • relaxtwotribes
    • By relaxtwotribes 13th Mar 18, 8:49 AM
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    relaxtwotribes
    Ask your solicitor to opine as to whether you have established rights of subrogation with regard to the debt payments you have made.
    • YoungBlueEyes
    • By YoungBlueEyes 13th Mar 18, 11:18 PM
    • 186 Posts
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    YoungBlueEyes
    At the risk of stating the bleeding obvious.....
    Your FIL passed 13 years ago, the will says one daughter who still lived there could stay for up to 5 years then the house would be sold. At what point are the 5 years up??
    • gettingtheresometime
    • By gettingtheresometime 13th Mar 18, 11:46 PM
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    gettingtheresometime
    At the risk of stating the bleeding obvious.....
    Your FIL passed 13 years ago, the will says one daughter who still lived there could stay for up to 5 years then the house would be sold. At what point are the 5 years up??
    Originally posted by YoungBlueEyes
    Good spot! Though I think the five years started. After the mil's death
    Lloyds OD / Natwest OD / PO CC / Wescott / Argos Card cleared thanks to the 1 debt v 100 day challenge


    Next on the list - JD Williams
    • getmore4less
    • By getmore4less 14th Mar 18, 9:38 AM
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    getmore4less
    At the risk of stating the bleeding obvious.....
    Your FIL passed 13 years ago(no will intestste), the will(MIL 3 years ago) says one daughter who still lived there could stay for up to 5 years then the house would be sold. At what point are the 5 years up??
    Originally posted by YoungBlueEyes

    still 2 years to go

    (subject to the dates it may be +-X months)
    • YoungBlueEyes
    • By YoungBlueEyes 15th Mar 18, 11:41 PM
    • 186 Posts
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    YoungBlueEyes
    Ah course yeah. My bad.
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