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    • Ransom_Dry_Elk
    • By Ransom_Dry_Elk 10th Mar 18, 11:51 AM
    • 12Posts
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    Ransom_Dry_Elk
    Tyre rotation
    • #1
    • 10th Mar 18, 11:51 AM
    Tyre rotation 10th Mar 18 at 11:51 AM
    My car recently had a MOT and service. One of the warnings was that the front tyres were down to 4mm of tread, however the back ones are only 6.
    I was wondering if I should get them rotated but apparently Kwikfit don't recommend it and would replace all 4 tyres. Would it be worth finding somewhere that will do a rotation or should I replace all of them anyway?
Page 2
    • Joe Horner
    • By Joe Horner 10th Mar 18, 7:21 PM
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    Joe Horner
    Take your car to Costco and they will always place the new tyres on the rear axle (Michelins guidelines).
    Originally posted by ohreally

    Although, Michelin's guidance is also to use tyres all the way to the 1.6mm limit (and has been since at least 2010):

    https://www.michelin.co.uk/tyres/learn-share/buying-guide/when-should-i-change-my-tyres

    Funny how so many forum experts will pick & choose which bits of manufacturer's advice they follow!
    • forgotmyname
    • By forgotmyname 11th Mar 18, 7:18 AM
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    forgotmyname
    The issue with the tyre manufacturers guidelines is they change over the years and they do not know what car your fitting the tyres to.

    I replace whichever set need replacing, if i was going to mess around moving the new tyres to the front/rear i would choose best tyres on the front. If heavy braking then the weight transfer shifts a high percentage to the front so it makes sense you want the most grip on the front, especially if you want to steer as well as brake.

    Think why they fit bigger brakes on the front.
    Punctuation, Spelling and Grammar will be used sparingly. Due to rising costs of inflation.

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    • fatrab
    • By fatrab 11th Mar 18, 8:00 AM
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    fatrab
    What does it say in the handbook for the car regarding tyre rotation? One of ours recommends every 5000 miles you should swap NSR for OSF and NSF for OSR, the other car recommends fronts and rears be swapped on the same side every 5000.


    I agree with a lot of comments so far, always replace in pairs, new tyres go on the rear, but if you rotate as per manufacturers recommendation then that shouldn't be an issue unless you damage one or puncture a sidewall. And I replace at 2mm or 5 years whichever comes first.


    I'm not surprised Kwik Fit recommended all 4 tyres, they are widely known for their scare tactics and recommending unnecessary work. I remember once being told "my brakes were over 45% worn". I nearly rolled out the place laughing, I was only in for an emergency puncture repair, I wouldn't use them for anything else!
    You can have results or excuses, but not both.
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    • parking_question_chap
    • By parking_question_chap 11th Mar 18, 9:47 AM
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    parking_question_chap
    I might have missed it, but cant see where you have said if its FWD,RWD or 4WD.

    We cant really answer until we know that.
    • telemarks
    • By telemarks 11th Mar 18, 12:11 PM
    • 161 Posts
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    telemarks
    Pulling together conflicting advice
    Seems there is quite a lot of divergent opinion on this subject, so I thought I'd have a go at something everyone could agree with. So here goes:

    When maintaining tyres the following should be followed in descending order of priority:
    1. Legal requirements
    2. The vehicle manfactuers recommendations
    3. The tyre manufactuers recommendations
    4. Guidance from local tyre centre or garage
    5. Thoughts from randon folks down the pub, or hanging round in forums.
    • ohreally
    • By ohreally 11th Mar 18, 5:07 PM
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    ohreally
    Although, Michelin's guidance is also to use tyres all the way to the 1.6mm limit (and has been since at least 2010)
    Originally posted by Joe Horner
    Where does Michelin state this, they only refer to the UK wear limit, I certainly don't see them advocate use to that level.
    Donít be a canít, be a can.
    • Joe Horner
    • By Joe Horner 11th Mar 18, 6:51 PM
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    Joe Horner
    Where does Michelin state this, they only refer to the UK wear limit, I certainly don't see them advocate use to that level.
    Originally posted by ohreally
    Err, item 2 of "When should I change my tyres" in the link I gave.

    Also, here:

    http://www.transportengineer.org.uk/transport-engineer-news/michelin-hits-back-at-3mm-car-tyre-change-campaign-updated/155431

    Michelin is rejecting calls from parts of the automotive tyre industry to increase the minimum legal tread depth of car tyres in the UK from 1.6mm to 3mm.

    [...]

    ďWith this in mind, changing tyres early (i.e. before they are fully worn) does not guarantee greater safety, and no current studies have established a direct link between accident levels and tyre tread depth.
    And here (interview with their research director, Bernard Delmas):

    https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/news/miscellaneous/2016-10/qa-replacing-tyres-at-3mm-tread-an-absolute-waste-says-michelin-director/

    {HJ}: The message that Michelin is putting out at the moment is that a 3mm tread depth as a legal requirement is nonsense Ė is that correct?

    {BD}Exactly. Actually we encourage [this]. We say we should use the tyre to 1.6mm which is the legal tread indicator and thatís true for wet performance, wet conditions, snow conditions.

    and here:

    https://www.automotiveworld.com/news-releases/michelin-changing-tyres-3mm-unnecessary-costly-harmful-environment/

    When consumers reflect on road safety, they generally think about emergency braking in wet conditions Ė and with reason as braking distances increase in wet conditions. However, throughout Europe the road conditions are predominantly dry. In London, roads are dry for 71 per cent of days per year (106.5 days)* and with half the number of rainy days, the South of France has dry roads 85% of the time! Therefore, dry braking performance is important as these are the most prevalent conditions for all the vehicles throughout Europe.

    The good news for motorists is that as long as tyres are not damaged in any way, the safety on dry roads actually improves as their tyres get worn. As seen on race circuits around the world, in dry conditions the Ďslickí is the tyre of choice; and similarly for the ordinary motorist, levels of grip in dry conditions increase as the tyre tread depth reduces. A worn tyre will stop a vehicle more quickly in the dry than the same tyre when new.
    As they point out, while people get all shouty about wet grip, UK roads are dry for nearly 75% of the year and DRY grip is better on worn tyres than new.

    So, if you really want that extra braking in an emergency, the chances are it'll be on a dry road not wet & you'll want your tyres worn to maximise it
    • ohreally
    • By ohreally 11th Mar 18, 8:09 PM
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    ohreally
    Err, item 2 of "When should I change my tyres" in the link I gave.
    Originally posted by Joe Horner
    You stated it was Michelins guidance to "use tyres all the way to the 1.6mm limit", the link you used does not state that at all.

    Michelin have made noises about increasing the lower were limit from 1.6mm to 3.0mm, nothing more, again your link in #21 does not have Michelin advising motorists to wear tyres down to the limit.

    Lifes too short.
    Donít be a canít, be a can.
    • Joe Horner
    • By Joe Horner 11th Mar 18, 8:35 PM
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    Joe Horner
    You stated it was Michelins guidance to "use tyres all the way to the 1.6mm limit", the link you used does not state that at all.

    Michelin have made noises about increasing the lower were limit from 1.6mm to 3.0mm, nothing more, again your link in #21 does not have Michelin advising motorists to wear tyres down to the limit.

    Lifes too short.
    Originally posted by ohreally
    No, you'e got that completely the wrong way round.

    Other people hae made noises about increasing the limit to 3mm and Michelin hae gone out on a limb and said it's not necessary and that tyres should be used to 1.6mm

    In the links I gave, that includes their director of research and development (who, incidentally, has nearly 40 years direct experience in the industry):

    "We say we should use the tyre to 1.6mm ". I even quoted that art of the link for you.

    Here's another quote, this time from a member of their executive committee - in fact, their Vice President of Passenger Car and Light Truck Product Line at the time :

    Thierry Chiche, a senior member of Michelin's executive committee, told Goodwood Road and Racing in Paris last week: "It's a nonsense. There's no scientific evidence that there's more danger below a tread depth of 3mm.
    https://www.goodwood.com/grrc/road/news/2016/10/michelin-tread-depth/

    If he's not speaking "for the company" on this I ca't imagine who you would accept!

    The fact you don't like it, or don't agree, doesn't alter the fact that that's the advice Michelin give - at all levels - since at least 2010 (in the original link I gave). That's despite the fact that they stand to lose sales by giving this advice.

    And I'm afraid I'm inclined to believe them more than random internet experts, assorted tyre chains who have a clearly vested interest in selling more tyres, or safety organisations who have a vested interest in inventing the next campaign.
    • EdGasketTheSecond
    • By EdGasketTheSecond 12th Mar 18, 9:07 AM
    • 550 Posts
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    EdGasketTheSecond
    Re. Tyre Rotation, mine go round with the wheels....
    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 12th Mar 18, 9:17 AM
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    AdrianC
    Re. Tyre Rotation, mine go round with the wheels....
    Originally posted by EdGasketTheSecond
    The wheels on the bus...?
    • Raxiel
    • By Raxiel 12th Mar 18, 11:13 AM
    • 655 Posts
    • 357 Thanks
    Raxiel
    What does it say in the handbook for the car regarding tyre rotation? One of ours recommends every 5000 miles you should swap NSR for OSF and NSF for OSR, the other car recommends fronts and rears be swapped on the same side every 5000...
    Originally posted by fatrab
    That could cause issues with directional tires, unless you re-mounted them on the rim at the same time.
    (That assumes that tire direction is actually a thing and not marketing)
    • fatrab
    • By fatrab 12th Mar 18, 12:17 PM
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    fatrab
    That could cause issues with directional tires, unless you re-mounted them on the rim at the same time.
    (That assumes that tire direction is actually a thing and not marketing)
    Originally posted by Raxiel
    Yeah that's another issue with the vehicle handbook, it assumes you're going to use the same specification of tyre as OE for the life of the vehicle.
    You can have results or excuses, but not both.
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    • DoaM
    • By DoaM 12th Mar 18, 12:31 PM
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    DoaM
    That's despite the fact that they stand to lose sales by giving this advice.
    Originally posted by Joe Horner
    Or gain sales from their competitors ... "Look! We say you can use our tyres all the way down to the legal limit of 1.6mm, whereas out competitors recommend changing at 3mm. Use Michelin, Save Money!"

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    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 12th Mar 18, 12:43 PM
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    AdrianC
    That could cause issues with directional tires, unless you re-mounted them on the rim at the same time.
    (That assumes that tire direction is actually a thing and not marketing)
    Originally posted by Raxiel
    It not only is "a thing", but it's "a thing" that'll cause you to fail your MOT if a directional tyre is mounted in the wrong direction.

    https://www.mot-testing.service.gov.uk/documents/manuals/m4s04000105.htm
    • Raxiel
    • By Raxiel 12th Mar 18, 2:04 PM
    • 655 Posts
    • 357 Thanks
    Raxiel
    It not only is "a thing", but it's "a thing" that'll cause you to fail your MOT if a directional tyre is mounted in the wrong direction.

    https://www.mot-testing.service.gov.uk/documents/manuals/m4s04000105.htm
    Originally posted by AdrianC
    Fair enough, I assumed it was but I don't like to post my assumptions as fact unless I've got time to check it first.

    Raises alarming questions abut my last car that had new tires and an MOT done before I picked it up, and came with the tires on backwards!
    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 12th Mar 18, 2:08 PM
    • 17,383 Posts
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    AdrianC
    Raises alarming questions abut my last car that had new tires and an MOT done before I picked it up, and came with the tires on backwards!
    Originally posted by Raxiel
    Both of them?

    So just a question of swapping the rims from side-to-side. Very easy to just put the wrong wheel on the wrong side.

    If it was just one, then the tyre would need turning on the rim, so that the outside sidewall became the inside. It's surprisingly easy to mount three clockwise and one anti-clock, too...
    • Raxiel
    • By Raxiel 12th Mar 18, 3:41 PM
    • 655 Posts
    • 357 Thanks
    Raxiel
    Both of them?

    So just a question of swapping the rims from side-to-side. Very easy to just put the wrong wheel on the wrong side.

    If it was just one, then the tyre would need turning on the rim, so that the outside sidewall became the inside. It's surprisingly easy to mount three clockwise and one anti-clock, too...
    Originally posted by AdrianC
    Yes, both wheels on one axle were wrong, just swapping them should have been enough to correct it, but by the time it was pointed out to me, I was told (by KwikFit for what that's worth) that they'd been run too long the wrong way round and needed to be condemned. I didn't have the time to investigate at the time, so I just let them replace them along with the two it was originally in for.
    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 12th Mar 18, 3:47 PM
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    AdrianC
    I was told (by KwikFit for what that's worth) that they'd been run too long the wrong way round and needed to be condemned.
    Originally posted by Raxiel
    Oh, bless 'em.

    We'll add that one to the long list.
    • Car 54
    • By Car 54 12th Mar 18, 5:43 PM
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    Car 54
    ... I assumed it was but I don't like to post my assumptions as fact unless I've got time to check it first.
    Originally posted by Raxiel
    Are you sure you're on the right forum?
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