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  • FIRST POST
    • 2018d
    • By 2018d 10th Mar 18, 7:48 AM
    • 35Posts
    • 4Thanks
    2018d
    Is this a polite rejection
    • #1
    • 10th Mar 18, 7:48 AM
    Is this a polite rejection 10th Mar 18 at 7:48 AM
    I re-trained last winter and have been speculatively cold calling companies to find work, even if it is initially unpaid. I had a one minute conversation with one of the 'decision makers' at a highly reputable firm. Below is the correspondence. I don't know what to make of it... is this a very polite rejection? Have I made a complete fool of myself?

    I sent this follow up email one week after the phone conversation in early December where he asked me to send over my resume.

    Hello,


    I sent a speculative enquiry (below)last week regarding an unpaid position.


    I wonder if you had a chance to look over my details.


    Please do advise me of your decision.


    Thanks


    Hi Sophia. Unfortunately we do not have any suitable openings at the current time. I will definitely keep your cv under reference for suitable junior roles in the near future.

    Best, Steve

    In mid-Feb I re-contacted him with this

    Hi Steve. Iím wondering, any Unpaid Junior roles? Anything I can do to better my chances?
    Best
    Sophia

    Response

    We really donít have any positions at the moment Sophia, although I definitely admire your energy. If anything suitable comes along I will certainly be in touch.

    Best,Steve

    I really hope so and look forward to it. Because I have research that I would like to show you then.

    Best wishes Steve

    Sophia



    Is this all just a very polite, time wasting rejection? I have had rejections many, many times in the past but they are usually direct and to the point.eg you need more experience, try again in a few years, we look for xyz qualifications.

    I also included a sample of my work in the initial email. I know that my work is 'competent' for a newbie, as the institute I trained with actually offered me job which I rejected as I did not feel I would progress in a learning environment as I would in a real work situation.

    Im looking for experienced opinions so that I can get some sense of this or closure and move on.
Page 6
    • Manxman in exile
    • By Manxman in exile 13th Mar 18, 10:22 PM
    • 1,473 Posts
    • 1,116 Thanks
    Manxman in exile
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_investment_banks

    Here is a comprehensive list of Investment banks. Look up their processes on their websites.

    I cannot reason with people who have no understanding. You can call me arrogant now, I call a lot of people here ignorant.

    It is my fault, I should have listened to my gut and realised that the response of the email was not an outright rejection, rather potential that in the future there could be a possibility. And this is just a waiting game now, I let my anxiety get the better of me and set up for small minded predators.

    Good luck and good bye
    Originally posted by 2018d
    .
    .
    I repeat what I said earlier. You have a first class LLB (you don't need to say it's in law, do you?) plus a LLM with a distinction. And you've got something called a MS in public relations from NYU. (No idea what that means and no idea why anyone would want to do it).


    So.... you can't get a job...they don't even want you as an intern for free.


    Errr - think about it.
    • 2018d
    • By 2018d 13th Mar 18, 10:29 PM
    • 35 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    2018d
    .
    .
    I repeat what I said earlier. You have a first class LLB (you don't need to say it's in law, do you?) plus a LLM with a distinction. And you've got something called a MS in public relations from NYU. (No idea what that means and no idea why anyone would want to do it).


    So.... you can't get a job...they don't even want you as an intern for free.


    Errr - think about it.
    Originally posted by Manxman in exile
    They are supposed to just magic up a workstation for me, are they?
    Or sack someone else without notice for especially for me?
    Seeing that enquired speculatively, not to a formal advertised job.
    And you call me arrogant???!!!

    : rotfl:
    • Manxman in exile
    • By Manxman in exile 13th Mar 18, 10:32 PM
    • 1,473 Posts
    • 1,116 Thanks
    Manxman in exile
    They are supposed to just magic up a workstation for me, are they? Or sack someone else without notice for especially for me?

    And you call me arrogant???!!!

    : rotfl:
    Originally posted by 2018d

    Steve and his highly reputable firm don't want to employ you. I can't imagine why...but Steve and his firm may have a reason...


    EDIT: and where did I call you arrogant? When you made that allegation had you checked what I posted? I've never described you as arrogant. If you've got a first class law degree you seem a bit reckless - worse that arrogant.


    so...you can't get a job...?
    Last edited by Manxman in exile; 13-03-2018 at 10:39 PM. Reason: add
    • John-K
    • By John-K 13th Mar 18, 10:35 PM
    • 654 Posts
    • 1,009 Thanks
    John-K
    My objective opinion, based on my experience recruiting staff to investment banking is that you are coming across as arrogant and annoying.




    The same poster, John-K, an 'oxbridge graduate' who called me a liar and a fantasist and questioned my qualifications, apparently has 2 different titles within finance.

    Earlier it was a position that recruited staff to investments banks.Now all of a sudden , he is a trader at an investment bank.

    I have no reason to lie, but you clearly do and have and actually have been caught red handed on this thread!!!!!
    Originally posted by 2018d
    Nope, not getting you, sorry. Most traders will have done some of the interviews. HR sift the CVs, do the group round sir whatever, and then front office staff do the interviews.

    We are the ones who will spend twelve hours a day sitting with them, and who they will end up working for.

    How did you think that it worked? HR canít know what sort of people we want, and donít have the skills or experience to make the final call alone.

    Iíve mentioned on previous threads what I do..l
    • 2018d
    • By 2018d 13th Mar 18, 10:37 PM
    • 35 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    2018d
    Steve and his highly reputable firm don't want to employ you. I can't imagine why...but Steve and his firm may have a reason...
    Originally posted by Manxman in exile
    Yes, the reason is in the email. There is no position at the moment (seeing that I cold called them out the blue), when there is a position he will be in touch. He said this twice, so I really shouldn't have any reason to doubt it.

    So there is the reason for you.
    • jobbingmusician
    • By jobbingmusician 13th Mar 18, 10:37 PM
    • 19,141 Posts
    • 19,609 Thanks
    jobbingmusician
    In the OP, the OP asked if they were following up on an initial email too much. That's what started the thread.

    Since then, the OP has said that they are leaving the thread at least 4 times, but is still posting. I think we have an answer to the initial question.......
    I'm the Board Guide on the Matched Betting; Referrers and Jobseeking & Training boards. I'm a volunteer to help the boards run smoothly, and I can move and merge posts there. Board guides are not moderators and don't read every post. If you spot an illegal or inappropriate post then please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com (it's not part of my role to deal with this). Any views are mine and not the official line of MoneySavingExpert.com.

    The good folk of the matched betting board are now (I hope!) supporting Macmillan, in memory of Fifigrace. Visit
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    • 2018d
    • By 2018d 13th Mar 18, 10:41 PM
    • 35 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    2018d
    Nope, not getting you, sorry. Most traders will have done some of the interviews. HR sift the CVs, do the group round sir whatever, and then front office staff do the interviews.

    We are the ones who will spend twelve hours a day sitting with them, and who they will end up working for.

    How did you think that it worked? HR canít know what sort of people we want, and donít have the skills or experience to make the final call alone.

    Iíve mentioned on previous threads what I do..l
    Originally posted by John-K
    Simple advice - when you are in a hole, stop digging. I'm sure they would have taught you that in some guise at Oxbridge. You've been caught red handed. It is just lie after lie, a 'fantasist' some might say. Maybe you can fool people on this forum, but not me.

    • John-K
    • By John-K 13th Mar 18, 10:50 PM
    • 654 Posts
    • 1,009 Thanks
    John-K
    Simple advice - when you are in a hole, stop digging. I'm sure they would have taught you that in some guise at Oxbridge. You've been caught red handed. It is just lie after lie, a 'fantasist' some might say. Maybe you can fool people on this forum, but not me.

    Originally posted by 2018d
    So you honestly do not think that front office staff do the interviewing?

    Why not? How would someone in HR be equipped to decide who would be a good fit on my desk?

    Hereís an interview with an old colleague of mine from DB. You can tell that he interviews people for jobs in the bank by the way that he says which interview questions he always asks...

    https://news.efinancialcareers.com/uk-en/268176/get-a-job-in-debt-capital-markets/

    So, any possibility of an embarrassed apology?
    • 2018d
    • By 2018d 13th Mar 18, 10:52 PM
    • 35 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    2018d
    Steve and his highly reputable firm don't want to employ you. I can't imagine why...but Steve and his firm may have a reason...


    EDIT: and where did I call you arrogant? When you made that allegation had you checked what I posted? I've never described you as arrogant. If you've got a first class law degree you seem a bit reckless - worse that arrogant.


    so...you can't get a job...?
    Originally posted by Manxman in exile
    Someone as 'insightful' as you should really keep up. Having finished retraining 3 months ago for a new career, I turned down 2 jobs last Christmas. So I chose not to take those jobs, even though they were offered to me.

    so...you can't get a job...?

    Can you clarify your statement now?

    Last edited by 2018d; 13-03-2018 at 11:00 PM.
    • 2018d
    • By 2018d 13th Mar 18, 10:59 PM
    • 35 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    2018d
    So you honestly do not think that front office staff do the interviewing?

    Why not? How would someone in HR be equipped to decide who would be a good fit on my desk?

    Here!!!8217;s an interview with an old colleague of mine from DB. You can tell that he interviews people for jobs in the bank by the way that he says which interview questions he always asks...

    https://news.efinancialcareers.com/uk-en/268176/get-a-job-in-debt-capital-markets/

    So, any possibility of an embarrassed apology?
    Originally posted by John-K

    Let me get this straight.....You're a trader at Deutsche Bank, working 12 hour days and recruiting, and your Oxbridge educated self manages to find all this time on this forum to help unemployed old me?????


    Seriously, you are embarrassing yourself now, stop.

    The title of the article itself clearly states he is the managing director
    What it takes to work in debt capital markets, by a Deutsche Bank managing director

    Are you now saying you are an Oxbridge Graduate, investment bank recruiter, investment bank trader, AND a managing director and you have all this.free time to spend on this thread?

    Last edited by 2018d; 13-03-2018 at 11:16 PM.
    • Manxman in exile
    • By Manxman in exile 13th Mar 18, 11:23 PM
    • 1,473 Posts
    • 1,116 Thanks
    Manxman in exile
    Someone as 'insightful' as you should really keep up. Having finished retraining 3 months ago for a new career, I turned down 2 jobs last Christmas. So I chose not to take those jobs, even though they were offered to me.

    so...you can't get a job...?

    Can you clarify your statement now?

    Originally posted by 2018d

    Sorry - I'm trying to be helpful. You've got a first class LLB and a LLM (Both from SOAS - which I've heard of, by the way)/ You've also got a MS in public relations from NYU. I agree with jobbingmusician that I wouldn't know what a "MS" from an American university meant.


    Well you were offered two jobs and turned them down - your choice. Since you turned down those two jobs, how many other offers have you had? Can you find a job or not?


    A first class LLB and LLM with distinction (both from SOAS?) and a MS from NYU. You've had job offers but turned them down!


    (This is very unfair of me but there was a common joke in the NHS 20 years ago - what's a sociology graduate likely to ask you - "Would you like fries with that?". BUT YOU'VE GOT TWO LAW DEGREES AND ARE DOING NOTHING! My simple advice is get a job -any job. You may have investments but they won't last forever - and if they did last forever I wouldn't bother getting a job!)
    • Les79
    • By Les79 13th Mar 18, 11:40 PM
    • 199 Posts
    • 255 Thanks
    Les79
    Let me get this straight.....You're a trader at Deutsche Bank, working 12 hour days and recruiting, and your Oxbridge educated self manages to find all this time on this forum to help unemployed old me?????


    Seriously, you are embarrassing yourself now, stop.

    The title of the article itself clearly states he is the managing director
    What it takes to work in debt capital markets, by a Deutsche Bank managing director

    Are you now saying you are an Oxbridge Graduate, investment bank recruiter, investment bank trader, AND a managing director and you have all this.free time to spend on this thread?

    Originally posted by 2018d
    I feel like I've stepped into the Twilight Zone....

    The gist of your very first post was about an email sent to an employer, and asking for advice on it.

    You finished the post by saying:

    Im looking for experienced opinions so that I can get some sense of this or closure and move on.
    6 pages/3days/110 posts later you reply with this most recent post...

    You also seem to attack someone who purports to be in a position of vast experience despite the quoted bit immediately above? "I'm looking for experienced opinions"

    I just don't get why you are carrying on with the thread to be honest.. And that's from a NEUTRAL perspective, because ultimately I only came on to consider your initial query. In regards to that, I mirror the users who effectively sugest that you should let sleeping dogs lie and move on to contacting another company and refraining from conatcing this company again, unless an official job opening is posted.

    A simple solution to a simple problem. Quite why you are posting after the aforementioned timeframes is beyond me!
    Last edited by Les79; 13-03-2018 at 11:45 PM.
    • Smodlet
    • By Smodlet 14th Mar 18, 3:27 AM
    • 2,998 Posts
    • 6,032 Thanks
    Smodlet
    Yes, the reason is in the email. There is no position at the moment (seeing that I cold called them out the blue), when there is a position he will be in touch. He said this twice, so I really shouldn't have any reason to doubt it.

    So there is the reason for you.
    Originally posted by 2018d

    No, he really won't. You just don't get it, do you? Steve's email is in no way ambiguous. I just wish he would read this thread though I think he already has your number.

    Why don't you fill your time by doing yet another degree, obviously at a Russell Group establishment? I am sure you can find another subject of even less use than PR. How about media studies?
    What is this life if, sweet wordsmith, we have no time to take the pith?
    Every stew starts with the first onion.
    I took it upon myself to investigate a trifle; it had custard, jelly, soggy sponge things...
    • JamesO
    • By JamesO 14th Mar 18, 6:55 AM
    • 356 Posts
    • 976 Thanks
    JamesO
    Public relations (PR) means managing the image an organisation portrays to its customers and the public.
    https://university.which.co.uk/subjects/public-relations

    ____________
    Blue Lives Matter
    • nicechap
    • By nicechap 14th Mar 18, 8:41 AM
    • 1,101 Posts
    • 2,344 Thanks
    nicechap
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_investment_banks

    Here is a comprehensive list of Investment banks. Look up their processes on their websites.

    I cannot reason with people who have no understanding. You can call me arrogant now, I call a lot of people here ignorant.

    It is my fault, I should have listened to my gut and realised that the response of the email was not an outright rejection, rather potential that in the future there could be a possibility. And this is just a waiting game now, I let my anxiety get the better of me and set up for small minded predators.

    Good luck and good bye
    Originally posted by 2018d
    I suspect potential models who have spent years studying law to then retrain would not understand the irony.
    Quote was right and saw into the future.
    • Malthusian
    • By Malthusian 14th Mar 18, 9:43 AM
    • 4,072 Posts
    • 6,380 Thanks
    Malthusian
    Steve doesn't want the OP working at his firm because he knows that within three weeks she and her colossal superbrain would have taken his job.

    If Steve was in any doubt, it would have been killed off when his wife took one look at the supermodel he was considering for hire and said "absolutely not".

    End of story.
    • catflap11
    • By catflap11 14th Mar 18, 9:46 AM
    • 77 Posts
    • 35 Thanks
    catflap11
    This is honestly one of the funniest things I have read in a while!
    • Manxman in exile
    • By Manxman in exile 14th Mar 18, 5:05 PM
    • 1,473 Posts
    • 1,116 Thanks
    Manxman in exile
    This is honestly one of the funniest things I have read in a while!
    Originally posted by catflap11

    Did you miss the OP who was "too clever" for their job, and their manager agreed?!
    • pmduk
    • By pmduk 14th Mar 18, 5:16 PM
    • 8,330 Posts
    • 6,142 Thanks
    pmduk
    Yes, the reason is in the email. There is no position at the moment (seeing that I cold called them out the blue), when there is a position he will be in touch. He said this twice, so I really shouldn't have any reason to doubt it.
    Originally posted by 2018d
    So why the thread?
    • Manxman in exile
    • By Manxman in exile 14th Mar 18, 5:32 PM
    • 1,473 Posts
    • 1,116 Thanks
    Manxman in exile
    No, he really won't. You just don't get it, do you? Steve's email is in no way ambiguous. I just wish he would read this thread though I think he already has your number.

    Why don't you fill your time by doing yet another degree, obviously at a Russell Group establishment? I am sure you can find another subject of even less use than PR. How about media studies?
    Originally posted by Smodlet

    I actually think that there is a place for media studies as an academic discipline. I'm sure that you (like me and many other posters here) are well aware of the bias represented in many media outlets. Anything that helps consumers of the media to understand that bias must be a good thing - so long as it's academically rigorous and unbiased itself!


    I'm constantly amazed at the extent to which younger relatives uncritically accept everything they read and hear (usually in their own bubble or echo chamber).


    I agree with you about PR, though. I can imagine someone being trained to work in PR, but I can't understand how they could be educated to do so. A masters degree in PR must be totally useless. As perhaps the OP has inadvertently demonstrated...


    PS - not having a go at you Smodlet - I just think a degree in media studies could be a useful education.
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