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  • FIRST POST
    • 2018d
    • By 2018d 10th Mar 18, 7:48 AM
    • 35Posts
    • 4Thanks
    2018d
    Is this a polite rejection
    • #1
    • 10th Mar 18, 7:48 AM
    Is this a polite rejection 10th Mar 18 at 7:48 AM
    I re-trained last winter and have been speculatively cold calling companies to find work, even if it is initially unpaid. I had a one minute conversation with one of the 'decision makers' at a highly reputable firm. Below is the correspondence. I don't know what to make of it... is this a very polite rejection? Have I made a complete fool of myself?

    I sent this follow up email one week after the phone conversation in early December where he asked me to send over my resume.

    Hello,


    I sent a speculative enquiry (below)last week regarding an unpaid position.


    I wonder if you had a chance to look over my details.


    Please do advise me of your decision.


    Thanks


    Hi Sophia. Unfortunately we do not have any suitable openings at the current time. I will definitely keep your cv under reference for suitable junior roles in the near future.

    Best, Steve

    In mid-Feb I re-contacted him with this

    Hi Steve. Iím wondering, any Unpaid Junior roles? Anything I can do to better my chances?
    Best
    Sophia

    Response

    We really donít have any positions at the moment Sophia, although I definitely admire your energy. If anything suitable comes along I will certainly be in touch.

    Best,Steve

    I really hope so and look forward to it. Because I have research that I would like to show you then.

    Best wishes Steve

    Sophia



    Is this all just a very polite, time wasting rejection? I have had rejections many, many times in the past but they are usually direct and to the point.eg you need more experience, try again in a few years, we look for xyz qualifications.

    I also included a sample of my work in the initial email. I know that my work is 'competent' for a newbie, as the institute I trained with actually offered me job which I rejected as I did not feel I would progress in a learning environment as I would in a real work situation.

    Im looking for experienced opinions so that I can get some sense of this or closure and move on.
Page 4
    • silverwhistle
    • By silverwhistle 12th Mar 18, 11:36 PM
    • 1,815 Posts
    • 2,384 Thanks
    silverwhistle
    I have a Russell Group masters degree and you get a distinction, not a first. First, 2:1 etc are usually (not 100%) undergrad....
    Originally posted by BrassicWoman
    I'm so old that in my day you didn't need a masters to get employment, in fact it was arguably a disadvantage if you were leaving academia.

    Completely OT, but there was a programme on R4 tonight about the dilution or inflation of academic requirements for employment which is worth listening to; it's probably on a podcast.

    PS: not meant as reflection on your masters, Brassic, but I know from your posts on MSE that you and other posters on this thread would find it interesting,
    • Smodlet
    • By Smodlet 13th Mar 18, 4:22 AM
    • 2,998 Posts
    • 6,032 Thanks
    Smodlet
    Oi, mush. Some of us do! :-)

    PS: I wonder if anyone can guess which Russell Group uni from the above reply. It may take some knowledge of regional linguistic differences. :-)
    Originally posted by silverwhistle
    Is it in Essex? <ducks and hides behind Ja>
    What is this life if, sweet wordsmith, we have no time to take the pith?
    Every stew starts with the first onion.
    I took it upon myself to investigate a trifle; it had custard, jelly, soggy sponge things...
    • 2018d
    • By 2018d 13th Mar 18, 7:15 AM
    • 35 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    2018d
    the first email back was fairly positive. Steve didn't have anything for you at that time, but thought you might be a fit for the company in future. I think then contacting again was a mistake,

    I agree with this.

    I wish I hadn't have sent the 2nd and 3rd email, but was anxious that as a head of a firm he could have forgotten about me.

    I've always been told by career advisers, agencies etc that it is a good idea to keep in touch/update prospective openings every 3-4 months
    i.e. Hello, I'm still here and still interested and this is what I've been doing in the interim.

    However, I am definitely not contacting him again, unless he contacts me first.
    • FBaby
    • By FBaby 13th Mar 18, 7:21 AM
    • 16,679 Posts
    • 41,266 Thanks
    FBaby
    OP, you are clearly very confident, unfortunately, it is bordering on arrogance, hence the responses you are getting.

    Your problem is that you are probably also a bit of a control freak who needs to know exactly where you stand. The reality is indeed that the world is full of ambiguity and you have to learn to live with it. Trying to read too much into something is wasting your energy because very often, people don't put as much thinking into their actions as you try to analyse.

    Like a few have suggested, I expect it went like this:
    They got your call, spoke politely to you, gave it little thought as you are only one of many such call they get, but ask you to send your CV because you never know.

    Steve got your email, briefly looked at your CV and thought you are not exactly what they are looking for at the moment OR thought you could fit in a particular role, but they are not currently recruiting into this role.

    Steve happens to remember what it was like when he was in your position so does bother to take the time to respond. His response is opened maybe so that not to crush your enthusiasm because again, he remembers what it's like to get straight rejection after another OR because indeed, he liked your CV, appreciated your eagerness and indeed might remember you when an appropriate position comes up.

    I agree that this is where you should have left it, because you subsequent action showed your arrogance, ie. I'm not giving up because I think I am better than anyone else and really you should be giving me a chance right now.

    At this point if Steve contacted me in the future with a position, which I now gather is highly unlikely, I don't even think I'd want it =(
    And indeed, that says it all. Why wouldn't you take it if you felt a role with this company justified your persistence. It's like being a petulant child who has a big tantrum because she doesn't get her way there and then.

    You need to learn that the world doesn't evolve around you and you don't always get what you want when you want it. For all you know, if you'd stopped after the second email, something might have come up and Steve would have thought 'I'm going to contact Sophia for an interview, I liked her persistence and confidence'. As it stands, he has now probably binned your CV.

    An opportunity, even if it is just that at one point, can become gold. Don't let your frustration take over.
    • John-K
    • By John-K 13th Mar 18, 7:34 AM
    • 654 Posts
    • 1,009 Thanks
    John-K
    I really hope so and look forward to it. Because I have research that I would like to show you then.

    Best wishes Steve

    Sophia


    I just showed this thread to a friend and she in fact thinks my email above is me saying ok I m moving on and look forward to the day I can say no thanks.

    Best wishes Steve aka Go and you know what Steve

    OMG - this is turning into Shakespeare analysis!!

    Im hoping, as some have already done, for their objective opinion based on their professional experience
    Originally posted by 2018d
    My objective opinion, based on my experience recruiting staff to investment banking is that you are coming across as arrogant and annoying. People are giving you advice and rather than taking it on board you are arguing with them.

    The comment above about why such a great candidate is still unemployed is a fair one. How great are you? What are your degrees in, and from where? What have you done to take your previous employers forward? Where have you innovated, which systems did you implement, or improve?

    Do you have a rowing blue, have you trekked to both poles, have you an Olympic medal, have you acted as a mentor for local disadvantaged children?
    • 2018d
    • By 2018d 13th Mar 18, 7:41 AM
    • 35 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    2018d
    FBaby, this is an excellent answer like some others on the thread. It tells me everything in a constructive manner of whats happened and how I can move forward.

    You seem to understand that when one is emotionally invested in something, it is difficult. to be objective hence why people go on forums to hear outsiders opinions on the same situation. Interpersonal skills don't come in the equation in these situations IMHO.

    As it stands, he has now probably binned your CV.

    but I see why, if so.

    And indeed, that says it all. Why wouldn't you take it if you felt a role with this company justified your persistence. It's like being a petulant child who has a big tantrum because she doesn't get her way there and then.

    The best thing to have to come out of the thread is this very point that you and some other son the thread have made. And absolutely, if he does contact me, which I still want to think he will, I will just be grateful for the interview and any subsequent position.

    An opportunity, even if it is just that at one point, can become gold. Don't let your frustration take over.[

    Great point
    • 2018d
    • By 2018d 13th Mar 18, 7:55 AM
    • 35 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    2018d
    My objective opinion, based on my experience recruiting staff to investment banking is that you are coming across as arrogant and annoying. People are giving you advice and rather than taking it on board you are arguing with them.

    The comment above about why such a great candidate is still unemployed is a fair one. How great are you? What are your degrees in, and from where? What have you done to take your previous employers forward? Where have you innovated, which systems did you implement, or improve?

    Do you have a rowing blue, have you trekked to both poles, have you an Olympic medal, have you acted as a mentor for local disadvantaged children?




    The company has my CV alongside samples of work, which states everything that they need to know about me.
    I don't feel I have go into that sort of detail on a thread, when it more than likely is setting me up for more snide comments.

    As I stated in my first post, I RE-TRAINED late last year.
    So despite the credible, transferable skills and excellent recommendations and references I bring from former positions I am realistic to see I am an entry level candidate in this particular field,
    And the fact I was offered a job by the institute I trained with and another a company I had applied to last Christmas (one fortnight after completing the re-training programme), both of which I turned down in terms of career progression and pay, is my choice and I stand by it.

    But it is a testament to that I am a good candidate for future employment as is the fact that I have used my own initiative and resources in independent research in the interim, and its not something I'm going to apologise for.

    This firm in question has excellent training, mentorship and career progression, which is why my heart is so set on them,
    Last edited by 2018d; 13-03-2018 at 8:16 AM.
    • John-K
    • By John-K 13th Mar 18, 8:05 AM
    • 654 Posts
    • 1,009 Thanks
    John-K
    English is my first and only language.Not that for any reason it should even be an issue.

    Funnily enough one of my 2 masters is in Public Relations (First Class ), and my work has been published in 10 national media outlets. And I secured subsequent work from those editors.
    Originally posted by 2018d
    Hang on. Which university puts class on a masters degree?
    • bugslet
    • By bugslet 13th Mar 18, 8:06 AM
    • 6,124 Posts
    • 29,494 Thanks
    bugslet

    Completely OT, but there was a programme on R4 tonight about the dilution or inflation of academic requirements for employment which is worth listening to; it's probably on a podcast.
    Originally posted by silverwhistle
    I'll look that up.

    I'm currently reading this

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Global-Auction-Promises-Education-Incomes/dp/0199926441

    which discusses the place of university degrees gained in the West now that India and China are catching up so quickly in the knowledge economy.

    Enjoying it so far.

    Edit: Thank you silverwhistle, that was really interesting. As was Town or Gown: New Tribes in Brezit.

    I really must get back to work!
    Last edited by bugslet; 13-03-2018 at 9:22 AM.
    • Jeems
    • By Jeems 13th Mar 18, 1:03 PM
    • 188 Posts
    • 118 Thanks
    Jeems
    Dear Sophia,
    Steve here. It's never going to happen. Please move on with your life.
    Regards,
    Steve
    • Manxman in exile
    • By Manxman in exile 13th Mar 18, 4:41 PM
    • 1,473 Posts
    • 1,116 Thanks
    Manxman in exile
    Hang on. Which university puts class on a masters degree?
    Originally posted by John-K

    That's what I thought when I read that post! I also didn't know you could get a degree in public relations.


    I'm actually someone who doesn't worry too much about what a degree subject was, so long as it demonstrably had academic rigour. Is there a large body of research in "public relations"? (Could be some psychology I s'pose).


    EDIT: When I did my masters at a Russell uni you could get a commendation (very few people and not me!) but apart from that they were unclassified.
    Last edited by Manxman in exile; 13-03-2018 at 4:44 PM. Reason: Add
    • Manxman in exile
    • By Manxman in exile 13th Mar 18, 5:42 PM
    • 1,473 Posts
    • 1,116 Thanks
    Manxman in exile
    I'm so old that in my day you didn't need a masters to get employment, in fact it was arguably a disadvantage if you were leaving academia.

    Completely OT, but there was a programme on R4 tonight about the dilution or inflation of academic requirements for employment which is worth listening to; it's probably on a podcast.

    PS: not meant as reflection on your masters, Brassic, but I know from your posts on MSE that you and other posters on this thread would find it interesting,
    Originally posted by silverwhistle

    Was the radio programme Analysis at 8:30 pm? It is something I'm interested in.
    • Manxman in exile
    • By Manxman in exile 13th Mar 18, 5:54 PM
    • 1,473 Posts
    • 1,116 Thanks
    Manxman in exile
    Oi, mush. Some of us do! :-)

    PS: I wonder if anyone can guess which Russell Group uni from the above reply. It may take some knowledge of regional linguistic differences. :-)
    Originally posted by silverwhistle

    Out of interest and without prying(!) which one was it? (My wife is very interested in regional linguistic differences).


    EIT: Is it UEA?
    Last edited by Manxman in exile; 13-03-2018 at 5:58 PM. Reason: add
    • John-K
    • By John-K 13th Mar 18, 8:11 PM
    • 654 Posts
    • 1,009 Thanks
    John-K
    That's what I thought when I read that post! I also didn't know you could get a degree in public relations.


    I'm actually someone who doesn't worry too much about what a degree subject was, so long as it demonstrably had academic rigour. Is there a large body of research in "public relations"? (Could be some psychology I s'pose).


    EDIT: When I did my masters at a Russell uni you could get a commendation (very few people and not me!) but apart from that they were unclassified.
    Originally posted by Manxman in exile
    My masters is a bit out of the ordinary, as it is awarded as a first degree, but like all other ones that I know of, there is no class attached to it. Same with the doctorate. I was awarded it, no class attached.

    The OP seems to be a bit of a fantasist. Long-term unemployed, supposedly great degree that sounds pretty poor or made up, and desperate to get an unpaid job in a firm that does not want them.

    I know that I may be wrong, but this first class masters just does not ring true.

    OP, which UK institution are you saying awards first class masters degrees? This seems iffy.
    • 2018d
    • By 2018d 13th Mar 18, 8:35 PM
    • 35 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    2018d
    My masters is a bit out of the ordinary, as it is awarded as a first degree, but like all other ones that I know of, there is no class attached to it. Same with the doctorate. I was awarded it, no class attached.

    The OP seems to be a bit of a fantasist. Long-term unemployed, supposedly great degree that sounds pretty poor or made up, and desperate to get an unpaid job in a firm that does not want them.

    I know that I may be wrong, but this first class masters just does not ring true.


    OP, which UK institution are you saying awards first class masters degrees? This seems iffy.
    Originally posted by John-K
    This is turning into abuse now, but just to shut you all up

    I have a Law LLB First class
    LLM Distinction, both from SOAS ever heard of it?
    MS Public Relations from NYU (that is in the USA) where I was awarded a first 4.0 GPA, 100% (and yes, it is possible)

    Btw Im not long term unemployed I have investments that generate an income, plus I RETRAINED, which ended 3 months ago and it is my choice which firms choose to work for, if they'll have me. If I choose to work unpaid for a set period of time ie 6 weeks in the vein of an internship that is my choice and not what this thread is about

    But thanks your 'brilliant' speculation and detective work as well as your psychoanalysis of me being a fantasist John Smith, who no doubt got his Masters in Philosophy at the pub
    Last edited by 2018d; 13-03-2018 at 8:40 PM.
    • John-K
    • By John-K 13th Mar 18, 8:43 PM
    • 654 Posts
    • 1,009 Thanks
    John-K
    So you lied about the first class masters then?

    Why the lie?

    And you don!!!8217;t trump mine, sorry.

    Now, get a job.
    • 2018d
    • By 2018d 13th Mar 18, 8:48 PM
    • 35 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    2018d
    This thread has served its purpose. Feel free to write whatever vile, dribble you like. I came here for constructive opinion of an unusual email, that was not worded in a typical rejection I have received before - not not to be attacked over everything.
    I thank those posters who have added constructive comments, especially the point of not being too proud in the future when they do contact me.I will accept the position whenever it id offered, and for those ignorant unpaid is a starting position, if they like your work they then keep you on paid and as a permanent employee.I am sorry if many of you are familiar with commercial reality
    Last edited by 2018d; 13-03-2018 at 8:59 PM.
    • slashlover
    • By slashlover 13th Mar 18, 8:49 PM
    • 31 Posts
    • 48 Thanks
    slashlover
    This is turning into abuse now, but just to shut you all up

    I have a Law LLB First class
    LLM Distinction, both from SOAS ever heard of it?
    MS Public Relations from NYU (that is in the USA) where I was awarded a first 4.0 GPA, 100% (and yes, it is possible)

    Btw Im not long term unemployed I have investments that generate an income, plus I RETRAINED, which ended 3 months ago and it is my choice which firms choose to work for, if they'll have me. If I choose to work unpaid for a set period of time ie 6 weeks in the vein of an internship that is my choice and not what this thread is about

    But thanks your 'brilliant' speculation and detective work as well as your psychoanalysis of me being a fantasist John Smith, who no doubt got his Masters in Philosophy at the pub
    Originally posted by 2018d
    I really wonder why people find you arrogant OP.
    • John-K
    • By John-K 13th Mar 18, 8:50 PM
    • 654 Posts
    • 1,009 Thanks
    John-K
    English is my first and only language.Not that for any reason it should even be an issue.

    Funnily enough one of my 2 masters is in Public Relations (First Class )
    Originally posted by 2018d
    This quote is why I am laughing at you, by the way. You still do not seem to understand that this bit of fantasy shows you to be dishonest.

    To explain again to you, no, you do not have a first class masters, masters degrees are not classified like that. If you are going to invent a fantasy life, do some research first.
    • John-K
    • By John-K 13th Mar 18, 8:52 PM
    • 654 Posts
    • 1,009 Thanks
    John-K
    This thread has served its purpose. Feel free to write whatever vile, dribble you like. I came here for constructive opinion of an unusual email, that was not worded in a typical rejection not to be attacked over everything.
    I thank those posters who have added constructive comments, especially the point of not being too proud in the future when they do contact me.I will accept the position whenever it id offered, and for those ignorant unpaid is a starting position, if they like your work they then keep you on paid and as a permanent employee.

    I am sorry if. many of you are familiar with commercial reality
    Originally posted by 2018d
    Your English is deteriorating further.

    I am pretty familiar with commercial activity, I am a trader in an investment bank.

    Would you like to send me your real CV? We pay graduates a pretty good starting wage.
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