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  • FIRST POST
    • Ero33
    • By Ero33 9th Mar 18, 8:23 PM
    • 5Posts
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    Ero33
    Didnt disclosed depression on pre-employment form
    • #1
    • 9th Mar 18, 8:23 PM
    Didnt disclosed depression on pre-employment form 9th Mar 18 at 8:23 PM
    Hixxxxxxxx
    Last edited by Ero33; 10-03-2018 at 8:10 AM.
Page 1
    • dori2o
    • By dori2o 9th Mar 18, 10:02 PM
    • 7,597 Posts
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    dori2o
    • #2
    • 9th Mar 18, 10:02 PM
    • #2
    • 9th Mar 18, 10:02 PM
    An emoyer has no legal right to ask for this information, and it is at the applicants discretion as to whether they disclose the information.

    An employer may however need to ensure that where the role requires the applicant is fit to do the job. i. e. if the role requires high levels of physical work it may not be possible for a person with a history of heart problems to do the role. The armed forces for example will not allow people who have a history of fits and epilepsy.

    Also, the employer has a legal duty to make reasonable adjustments to people who meet the Equality Acts definition of disability.

    They can only make these adjustments where they know that an employee has a disability.

    Depression, where it has a significant affect on a persons day to day living, and has, or is expected to last more than 12 months, is very likely to meet the Acts definition of a disability.

    Its entirely up to you whether you disclose the information, and unless it would prevent you from doing the job, i. e like the issue of the armed forces, the employer cannot dismiss you for not disclosing unless they made it clear on the form that not disclosing is a disciplinary issue, AND by dismissing you they are deemed to NOT be discriminating against a disabled person.

    It would help if you could provide information of what the job entails and how advanced/what issues you face with your medical issues.
    Last edited by dori2o; 09-03-2018 at 10:13 PM.
    To equate judgement and wisdom with occupation is at best . . . insulting.
    • Masomnia
    • By Masomnia 9th Mar 18, 10:08 PM
    • 17,217 Posts
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    Masomnia
    • #3
    • 9th Mar 18, 10:08 PM
    • #3
    • 9th Mar 18, 10:08 PM
    Mm I think they'd be taking a massive risk if they did dismiss you for not disclosing this.

    Do you think it will have an impact on your ability to do the job or attend work on a regular basis?

    If it's all under control and you think you would be able to attend work the same as anyone else then I'd be very tempted to just never mention it, keep my head down and get on with it tbh.
    I could see that, if not actually disgruntled, he was far from being gruntled. - P.G. Wodehouse
    • Ero33
    • By Ero33 9th Mar 18, 10:36 PM
    • 5 Posts
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    Ero33
    • #4
    • 9th Mar 18, 10:36 PM
    • #4
    • 9th Mar 18, 10:36 PM
    Xxxxxxxxxx
    Last edited by Ero33; 10-03-2018 at 8:13 AM.
    • dori2o
    • By dori2o 9th Mar 18, 10:40 PM
    • 7,597 Posts
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    dori2o
    • #5
    • 9th Mar 18, 10:40 PM
    • #5
    • 9th Mar 18, 10:40 PM
    Well the question was if i ever suffered or have been diagnosed with a mental health illness (something like this). Im Just worried they will contact the gp as i gave them permission to see information about this in my medical records and for the gp to provide this information.
    And my depression is under control and I dont expect any issues.
    Originally posted by Ero33
    Did the form state that it was a requirement to disclose, and/or that a failure to disclose would be cause for disciplinary process?
    To equate judgement and wisdom with occupation is at best . . . insulting.
    • Ero33
    • By Ero33 9th Mar 18, 10:42 PM
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    Ero33
    • #6
    • 9th Mar 18, 10:42 PM
    • #6
    • 9th Mar 18, 10:42 PM
    Xxxxxxxxxx
    Last edited by Ero33; 10-03-2018 at 8:12 AM.
    • Les79
    • By Les79 9th Mar 18, 10:49 PM
    • 264 Posts
    • 330 Thanks
    Les79
    • #7
    • 9th Mar 18, 10:49 PM
    • #7
    • 9th Mar 18, 10:49 PM
    Well, my immediate thought is that you've lied on the form and they could deal with you on those grounds if it all comes out. Potentially a good idea to just contact them and advise them of the mistake.

    I appreciate why you didn't want to specify that you were depressed and taking meds before something concrete was in place (job offer), but in complete fairness they'll probably treat people with any such condition with MORE compassion than they would someone who is as fit as a fiddle. Not least because you could have a protected characteristic. They've got to be really careful, and not be shown to be discriminating so you generally get treated a bit more carefully.

    Also, if depression makes you completely unsuitable for that line of work (such as dori2o's reference to Armed Forced and epilepsy) then you should be ruled out from the job completely as soon as possible. You shouldn't even *try* to get into the job.
    • Ero33
    • By Ero33 9th Mar 18, 11:49 PM
    • 5 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Ero33
    • #8
    • 9th Mar 18, 11:49 PM
    • #8
    • 9th Mar 18, 11:49 PM
    Hixxxxxxxx..
    Last edited by Ero33; 10-03-2018 at 8:11 AM.
    • Savvy_Sue
    • By Savvy_Sue 10th Mar 18, 1:49 AM
    • 38,626 Posts
    • 35,358 Thanks
    Savvy_Sue
    • #9
    • 10th Mar 18, 1:49 AM
    • #9
    • 10th Mar 18, 1:49 AM
    Well yes, you could just withdraw your application, but why is that a better option than phoning HR and explaining that you wanted to give more details.

    Why you thought saying 'no' on a form where you also gave permission for your GP to be contacted remains a mystery ...
    Still knitting!
    Completed: 1 adult cardigan, 3 baby jumpers, 3 shawls, 1 sweat band, 3 pairs baby bootees,
    1 Wise Man Knitivity figure + 1 sheep, 2 pairs socks, 2 hats 2 balaclavas for seamen, 1 balaclava for myself ...
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    • Savvy_Sue
    • By Savvy_Sue 10th Mar 18, 1:50 AM
    • 38,626 Posts
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    Savvy_Sue
    An emoyer has no legal right to ask for this information, and it is at the applicants discretion as to whether they disclose the information.
    Originally posted by dori2o
    I thought it was OK post interview? Which presumably the OP has got through OK.

    OP, you could just withdraw your application, but why is that a better option than phoning HR and explaining that you wanted to give more details? They'll either decide not to proceed with making an offer, or accept the amendment.

    Why you thought saying 'no' on a form where you also gave permission for your GP to be contacted remains a mystery ...
    Still knitting!
    Completed: 1 adult cardigan, 3 baby jumpers, 3 shawls, 1 sweat band, 3 pairs baby bootees,
    1 Wise Man Knitivity figure + 1 sheep, 2 pairs socks, 2 hats 2 balaclavas for seamen, 1 balaclava for myself ...
    Current projects: Poppies, mohair cardigan pattern arrived and going strong!
    • Detroit
    • By Detroit 10th Mar 18, 8:03 AM
    • 747 Posts
    • 2,332 Thanks
    Detroit
    OP, in your initial post you say ' if I get the offer' By this, do you mean you were asked the health questions before the job offer was made? If so, I do not believe the employer acted legally as my understanding is that these questions should only be asked when you are made an offer.

    Contact the equalities advisory service or disability rights alliance (sorry no link, but you can easily find with a search) to check before taking action.


    Put your hands up.
    • mr_munchem
    • By mr_munchem 10th Mar 18, 8:13 AM
    • 95 Posts
    • 33 Thanks
    mr_munchem
    An emoyer has no legal right to ask for this information, and it is at the applicants discretion as to whether they disclose the information.

    An employer may however need to ensure that where the role requires the applicant is fit to do the job. i. e. if the role requires high levels of physical work it may not be possible for a person with a history of heart problems to do the role. The armed forces for example will not allow people who have a history of fits and epilepsy.

    Also, the employer has a legal duty to make reasonable adjustments to people who meet the Equality Acts definition of disability.

    They can only make these adjustments where they know that an employee has a disability.

    Depression, where it has a significant affect on a persons day to day living, and has, or is expected to last more than 12 months, is very likely to meet the Acts definition of a disability.

    Its entirely up to you whether you disclose the information, and unless it would prevent you from doing the job, i. e like the issue of the armed forces, the employer cannot dismiss you for not disclosing unless they made it clear on the form that not disclosing is a disciplinary issue, AND by dismissing you they are deemed to NOT be discriminating against a disabled person.

    It would help if you could provide information of what the job entails and how advanced/what issues you face with your medical issues.
    Originally posted by dori2o
    Employers can ask questions about health once an offer of work has been made, as long as they have a justifiable reason for the questions asked. Employers have a duty to ensure that the workplace is safe, and so therefore these questions may be relevant.

    OP - did they explain what would happen with the form? Depression might not be a problem, they might just want you to see an Occupational Health Specialist to gain more specialist information on how your depression may affect your work.

    Ultimately, lying on a form like this, even if not expressly stated, would undermine the mutual duty of trust and confidence in all employment contracts and so this could be a fair reason to dismiss.
    • mr_munchem
    • By mr_munchem 10th Mar 18, 8:14 AM
    • 95 Posts
    • 33 Thanks
    mr_munchem
    OP, in your initial post you say ' if I get the offer' By this, do you mean you were asked the health questions before the job offer was made? If so, I do not believe the employer acted legally as my understanding is that these questions should only be asked when you are made an offer.

    Contact the equalities advisory service or disability rights alliance (sorry no link, but you can easily find with a search) to check before taking action.
    Originally posted by Detroit
    Good point, the legality of these questions does ride on whether it was before or after a job offer.
    • dori2o
    • By dori2o 10th Mar 18, 8:32 AM
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    dori2o
    I thought it was OK post interview? Which presumably the OP has got through OK.

    OP, you could just withdraw your application, but why is that a better option than phoning HR and explaining that you wanted to give more details? They'll either decide not to proceed with making an offer, or accept the amendment.

    Why you thought saying 'no' on a form where you also gave permission for your GP to be contacted remains a mystery ...
    Originally posted by Savvy_Sue
    They can 'ask' for the information at any time they please, but there is no law that says an applicant has to disclose to an employer.

    The way employers get around this is to include a statement that reads along the lines of 'failure to provide accurate information may lead to an offer of employment being withdrawn, or may result in disciplinary action'.

    OP.

    There is no 'legal' action the employer could take against you.

    I would not withdraw the application either.

    Despite the fact you have not disclosed this illness you still have a strong position. Depression, even where you are currently managing it, where it is/has been a long term issue, is likely to be considered to be a disability. Therefore they wouldnt be able to dismiss you simply on the basis that you have a mental illness/ depression.

    Instead I would speak to my GP and ask for a letter that explains when you were diagnosed, what steps you have taken to manage the illness, and confirm that these steps you are taking are helping you to manage it. I might also ask them to include a paragraph regarding what signs to look out for/triggers etc to help you to keep on managing the illness. I would then send this to the company with a brief note explaining that you didnt believe that you needed to disclose the illness as it has been managed sucessfully for some time, but on reflection having thought about it further, you wanted to provide them with a detailed account of the nature of the illness.

    They may not care about the fact you've left it undisclosed and offer you a job.

    If you withdraw the application you will never know whether or not that is the case.
    To equate judgement and wisdom with occupation is at best . . . insulting.
    • dori2o
    • By dori2o 10th Mar 18, 8:36 AM
    • 7,597 Posts
    • 12,729 Thanks
    dori2o
    Good point, the legality of these questions does ride on whether it was before or after a job offer.
    Originally posted by mr_munchem
    There is no law that prevents them from asking the questions, but pre job offer they cannot insist on disclosure.

    Edit:

    It seems on further investigation that this should only be done at the point where the employer has completed the initial 'sift' of applicants following a formal bulk recruitment process. i. e where a job offer is likely after the application is submitted and a pool of applicants now exists after review of the application forms has taken place.

    This is known often as the 'pre-employment phase'

    The employer cannot require staff to undergo occ health referrals prior to a job offer and acceptance.

    They can however ask these questions/request assessment at pre employment stage, when an offer of employment has been made to:

    Require assessment to ascertain suitability for the role

    Determine any reasonable adjustment requirements

    Determine if the applicant can manage tasks intrinsic to the role, i.e heavy lifting etc

    To monitor diversity

    To support positive action (positive discrimination) regarding the employment of disabled people

    Where the role requires the applicant to be a person with a protected characteristic, i. e of a certain age, sex, sexual preference, be disabled etc.


    Once the employer is within this pre-employment phase of their recruitment process then they can ask what they want. However, the applicant is still under no requirement to disclose.

    The employer however can make it clear that failure to disclose may lead to withdrawl of the job offer, or, disiplinary issues if discovered after employment has commenced.
    Last edited by dori2o; 10-03-2018 at 9:10 AM.
    To equate judgement and wisdom with occupation is at best . . . insulting.
    • Detroit
    • By Detroit 10th Mar 18, 8:40 AM
    • 747 Posts
    • 2,332 Thanks
    Detroit
    There is no law that prevents them from asking the questions, but pre job offer they cannot insist on disclosure.
    Originally posted by dori2o
    I believe that it is no longer legal to ask the questions pre offer but am prepared to be proved wrong.


    Put your hands up.
    • unforeseen
    • By unforeseen 10th Mar 18, 9:05 AM
    • 2,677 Posts
    • 3,430 Thanks
    unforeseen
    In the original post the OP stated that the form is in sealed envelope. I presume that it will only be opened if the OP is going to be offered the job.

    At this point neither HR nor the interview panel are aware of the content so will not be basing their job offer on it.
    • dori2o
    • By dori2o 10th Mar 18, 9:12 AM
    • 7,597 Posts
    • 12,729 Thanks
    dori2o
    Information about these questions and when they can be asked is here

    https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/85013/employment-health-questions.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjr2carr-HZAhXGJ8AKHZYhDlgQFjABegQICRAB&usg=AOvVaw2zJMgERqT-n_TFzwpPyeH1
    To equate judgement and wisdom with occupation is at best . . . insulting.
    • Les79
    • By Les79 10th Mar 18, 9:53 AM
    • 264 Posts
    • 330 Thanks
    Les79
    In the original post the OP stated that the form is in sealed envelope. I presume that it will only be opened if the OP is going to be offered the job.

    At this point neither HR nor the interview panel are aware of the content so will not be basing their job offer on it.
    Originally posted by unforeseen
    Aye!

    Also, is there a possibility that OP has filled in an "equal opportunities" form which is effectively anonymised and serves to provide information on what sort of people are applying for the jobs?
    • Ero33
    • By Ero33 10th Mar 18, 11:04 AM
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    Ero33
    I handed in the form two days after the interview and im still waiting to hear back from them. This was last week and they said it might take up to three weeks as they are still interviewing People.
    Last edited by Ero33; 10-03-2018 at 9:37 PM.
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