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  • FIRST POST
    • Estelle77
    • By Estelle77 9th Mar 18, 4:16 PM
    • 55Posts
    • 2Thanks
    Estelle77
    Paypal policy
    • #1
    • 9th Mar 18, 4:16 PM
    Paypal policy 9th Mar 18 at 4:16 PM
    Hello,
    I have this issue here.
    I once bought an item on a website and paid with Paypal. Nothing suggested the item was not new and the price would correspond to the genuine new item, which is not produced anymore but some seller still have some on the stock. We have already had this model but it broke after years of use so I thought I bought a good replacement.
    The item came from Hong-Kong and it was a joke. No original packaging and the item did not behave like a genuine one - not registering with unique ID when attached to the computer. Also the workmanship did not look as precise as the original old one.
    To cut the long story short: I received a refund for the item, but Paypal asked me to post the item I flagged on a number of occasions as fake to the seller - to Canada. It costed me over £8 which I never got refunded. It did fulfill the 'significantly not as described' category, hence the otherwise full refund. But as far as I know, as per the distant selling regulations I should get the refund of the return postage, too. And, if the item is a fake, it should be pulled out of the market, not sent back so it can be sold to someone else.

    What are your thoughts? Paypal insists they don't cover the returning postage and they seem like protecting the dodgy seller by not recovering this additional expense from them. The last time I communicated with Paypal about this suspicious behaviour they replied they forwarded the case for investigation, but that was over two weeks ago and I have never heard from them since. I kept nagging them about this for a while before, not letting it disappear. I am saving all the communication with them about this.
    Thoughts?
Page 1
    • BorisThomson
    • By BorisThomson 9th Mar 18, 5:18 PM
    • 1,586 Posts
    • 3,420 Thanks
    BorisThomson
    • #2
    • 9th Mar 18, 5:18 PM
    • #2
    • 9th Mar 18, 5:18 PM
    What is the website you ordered from, and did you contract under UK jurisdiction?

    Why have you started a new thread on this?

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5798710
    Last edited by BorisThomson; 09-03-2018 at 5:22 PM.
    • Estelle77
    • By Estelle77 9th Mar 18, 5:25 PM
    • 55 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Estelle77
    • #3
    • 9th Mar 18, 5:25 PM
    • #3
    • 9th Mar 18, 5:25 PM
    What is the website you ordered from, and did you contract under UK jurisdiction?

    Why have you started a new thread on this?

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5798710
    Originally posted by BorisThomson
    I have no idea what website it is. I looked for the specific model of the item and this came up on the second or third page of google. When I went back to look for this, it does not come up so I guess the bogus trader pulled the website down after it sold the rubbish out. It was none of the usual trading websites like ebay or amazon.
    And yes, I did contact the seller via paypal, to which he never responded, so I escalated the case. It was closed since then after I received the refund for the item, but I am still trying to get to the additional expenses. On my last message on 22/Feb whether their notification about the investigation I will receive (heaven knows when) means I will get the refund, they never replied.
    • Estelle77
    • By Estelle77 9th Mar 18, 5:27 PM
    • 55 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Estelle77
    • #4
    • 9th Mar 18, 5:27 PM
    • #4
    • 9th Mar 18, 5:27 PM
    Why I posted it again... because in that section it did not get the response I hoped for. I thought that relevant responses will come in this topic.
    • Estelle77
    • By Estelle77 9th Mar 18, 5:29 PM
    • 55 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Estelle77
    • #5
    • 9th Mar 18, 5:29 PM
    • #5
    • 9th Mar 18, 5:29 PM
    Whether under the UK jurisdiction: I don't remember the website, the item came form Hong Kong, but the seller is said to reside in Canada. Paypal is not an UK company, so probably not.
    • camelot1971
    • By camelot1971 9th Mar 18, 5:53 PM
    • 726 Posts
    • 1,123 Thanks
    camelot1971
    • #6
    • 9th Mar 18, 5:53 PM
    • #6
    • 9th Mar 18, 5:53 PM
    If the company is not based in the UK you have no hope of getting anywhere using EU regs. How can you not remember the website you bought something from? Do you have an email receipt?

    My Paypal account offers a refund of postage for returns (up to £15 I think) - is that not available in your account?
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 9th Mar 18, 6:05 PM
    • 7,261 Posts
    • 6,783 Thanks
    KeithP
    • #7
    • 9th Mar 18, 6:05 PM
    • #7
    • 9th Mar 18, 6:05 PM
    Theonlywayisup gave you good guidance on your earlier thread.
    .
    • DCFC79
    • By DCFC79 9th Mar 18, 6:18 PM
    • 31,709 Posts
    • 19,995 Thanks
    DCFC79
    • #8
    • 9th Mar 18, 6:18 PM
    • #8
    • 9th Mar 18, 6:18 PM
    Why I posted it again... because in that section it did not get the response I hoped for. I thought that relevant responses will come in this topic.
    Originally posted by Estelle77
    You could have just bumped up the other thread.

    What other advice would you like ?

    As Keith says, you received good advice on the other thread.
    Can people stop loaning money/being a guarator to family/friends, it rarely ends well and you lose out as your money is gone or you get shafted with being a guarantor.
    • Estelle77
    • By Estelle77 9th Mar 18, 9:12 PM
    • 55 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Estelle77
    • #9
    • 9th Mar 18, 9:12 PM
    • #9
    • 9th Mar 18, 9:12 PM
    My original question was: "Is it acceptable to post a suspected counterfeit item to the seller instead of confiscating it?"

    Nobody replied to that one. Instead I learned that:

    1. I should not buy from dodgy websites - I am quite careful where I buy from. How do you say which website is dodgy? There are countless small retailers having their own websites. Amazon or e-bay are not the whole world.

    2. contacting Action Fraud - that operates on the UK. Not in Canada, not in other European countries. Paypal is not the UK company. Would they hold Paypal responsible for a wrong decision of not withdrawing the fake item from the market?
    3. I was blamed for buying an item and that I am not supposed to expect to be compensated for it (despite the policy of the company, albeit limited). As per Paypal I would expect that when I report a fake item it will not be sent back at my expense which has two elements in it: returning a fake back on the market (big fail) and making me at loss sending this stuff without the compensation by the company at wrong (I did not insist on Paypal carrying the burden, but since they managed to recover the cost of the item from the seller, they as well could recover the cost of the returning postage when they have this silly policy of making the innocent customer out of pocket). That was before I learned about their 'return on us' policy and that was the only useful advice I was given and I followed. But that does not sort out THIS problem.

    NOBODY replied to the question I asked. What would reporting to the brand owner do, when I no longer have the item to prove my case?

    Now I am adding another question: Is Paypal obliged to follow the distant selling regulations, even before I registered for the 'return on us' scheme?
    • mije1983
    • By mije1983 9th Mar 18, 9:42 PM
    • 3,011 Posts
    • 18,875 Thanks
    mije1983
    Now I am adding another question: Is Paypal obliged to follow the distant selling regulations, even before I registered for the 'return on us' scheme?
    Originally posted by Estelle77
    Paypal are not the seller, so no they are not.

    And as the seller is also outside the EU, you have little chance of getting them to cough up for the postage.

    Did you tell Paypal the item was counterfeit?

    • boo_star
    • By boo_star 9th Mar 18, 9:43 PM
    • 1,491 Posts
    • 838 Thanks
    boo_star
    My original question was: "Is it acceptable to post a suspected counterfeit item to the seller instead of confiscating it?"

    Nobody replied to that one. Instead I learned that:

    1. I should not buy from dodgy websites - I am quite careful where I buy from. How do you say which website is dodgy? There are countless small retailers having their own websites. Amazon or e-bay are not the whole world.

    2. contacting Action Fraud - that operates on the UK. Not in Canada, not in other European countries. Paypal is not the UK company. Would they hold Paypal responsible for a wrong decision of not withdrawing the fake item from the market?
    3. I was blamed for buying an item and that I am not supposed to expect to be compensated for it (despite the policy of the company, albeit limited). As per Paypal I would expect that when I report a fake item it will not be sent back at my expense which has two elements in it: returning a fake back on the market (big fail) and making me at loss sending this stuff without the compensation by the company at wrong (I did not insist on Paypal carrying the burden, but since they managed to recover the cost of the item from the seller, they as well could recover the cost of the returning postage when they have this silly policy of making the innocent customer out of pocket). That was before I learned about their 'return on us' policy and that was the only useful advice I was given and I followed. But that does not sort out THIS problem.

    NOBODY replied to the question I asked. What would reporting to the brand owner do, when I no longer have the item to prove my case?

    Now I am adding another question: Is Paypal obliged to follow the distant selling regulations, even before I registered for the 'return on us' scheme?
    Originally posted by Estelle77
    If you only suspect itís counterfeit, yes.

    If youíve had it verified by the manufacturer or one of their agents as being fake, not really.
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 9th Mar 18, 10:06 PM
    • 7,261 Posts
    • 6,783 Thanks
    KeithP
    What about The Better Business Bureau?

    They cover Canada. Perhaps they can help you.
    .
    • Diamandis
    • By Diamandis 9th Mar 18, 11:08 PM
    • 264 Posts
    • 427 Thanks
    Diamandis
    I think you're completely misunderstanding what PayPal is.
    • Estelle77
    • By Estelle77 10th Mar 18, 12:07 AM
    • 55 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Estelle77
    Paypal are not the seller, so no they are not.
    And as the seller is also outside the EU, you have little chance of getting them to cough up for the postage.
    Did you tell Paypal the item was counterfeit?
    Originally posted by mije1983
    Yes, I told them repeatedly (maybe 7 times in a number of messages to which different people responded) that it was a fake/counterfeit item.
    It was Paypal that made me to send the item back so I had the chance for refund of the original cost. They recovered this original cost but their policy neglects the customers who have to bear the charge of sending the faulty item back. I consider this policy wrong. Only now they have this opt in system of 'return on us', which I find cheeky as it should be automatic for all such cases.

    If the Paypal has the powers to recover the cost of the original item from the seller selling faulty or bogus items to the customers they should also have the powers to recover the postal charge for posting faulty item back to the seller. It should be their policy if they are serious about the 'buyers protection'.
    Last edited by Estelle77; 10-03-2018 at 12:11 AM.
    • Estelle77
    • By Estelle77 10th Mar 18, 12:20 AM
    • 55 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Estelle77
    What about The Better Business Bureau?

    They cover Canada. Perhaps they can help you.
    Originally posted by KeithP
    Nice suggestion, thanks.
    But I am not sure what they can do when the address given to me by Paypal to send the item back to Canada was deemed as wrong by the postal service (based on the international tracking info). The item was not delivered back. It certainly is a dodgy seller and Papal could have known better and be more careful after I flagged this in my very first contact to them regarding this case.
    It appears the company does not operate legally at that address and it is some Chinese bogus business since the item came from Hong Kong. Nothing suggested this when I made the purchase.
    • mije1983
    • By mije1983 10th Mar 18, 12:50 AM
    • 3,011 Posts
    • 18,875 Thanks
    mije1983
    If the Paypal has the powers to recover the cost of the original item from the seller selling faulty or bogus items to the customers they should also have the powers to recover the postal charge for posting faulty item back to the seller. It should be their policy if they are serious about the 'buyers protection'.
    Originally posted by Estelle77
    Whether or not it should be, their policy clearly isn't.



    Significantly Not as Described
    Ė You received an item but it was significantly different from the sellerís original description. (You might have to pay return shipping costs, but may be eligible for Return Shipping on Us. Activate Return Shipping on Us before filing your dispute to qualify for the benefit.)



    It appears the company does not operate legally at that address and it is some Chinese bogus business since the item came from Hong Kong. Nothing suggested this when I made the purchase.
    Originally posted by Estelle77
    Just to point out that although in this instance it probably is some kind of scam (no genuine business will send out counterfeit goods), just because the item comes from HK doesn't automatically make it so. They could be dropshipping and the person behind it lives in Canada.

    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 10th Mar 18, 2:03 AM
    • 7,261 Posts
    • 6,783 Thanks
    KeithP
    But I am not sure what they can do when the address given to me by Paypal to send the item back to Canada was deemed as wrong by the postal service (based on the international tracking info).
    Originally posted by Estelle77
    ...and you'll never know unless you ask them, will you?
    .
    • theonlywayisup
    • By theonlywayisup 10th Mar 18, 6:10 AM
    • 12,153 Posts
    • 8,227 Thanks
    theonlywayisup
    Yes, I told them repeatedly (maybe 7 times in a number of messages to which different people responded) that it was a fake/counterfeit item.
    It was Paypal that made me to send the item back so I had the chance for refund of the original cost.
    Originally posted by Estelle77

    If you provide evidence (proper evidence and not just your opinion) that an item you purchase using Paypal as the payment intermediary, then Paypal will act accordingly. This can include instructing you to dispose of the item - Paypal will not require you to send it back. They explain this in the seller protection part of their policy. Clearly, you've not convinced them and/or provided credible evidence to support your allegation.



    They recovered this original cost but their policy neglects the customers who have to bear the charge of sending the faulty item back. I consider this policy wrong. Only now they have this opt in system of 'return on us', which I find cheeky as it should be automatic for all such cases.

    If the Paypal has the powers to recover the cost of the original item from the seller selling faulty or bogus items to the customers they should also have the powers to recover the postal charge for posting faulty item back to the seller. It should be their policy if they are serious about the 'buyers protection'.
    Originally posted by Estelle77
    Paypal are not empowered to recover returns charges as they don't have access to monies that have not passed through their payment processor.

    If a seller received £100 for a sale, Paypal have the ability to reclaim the £100 for 180 days after the transaction date. If they require a buyer to return the item to the seller following a dispute, the only monies Paypal can return to the buyer are the monies given in the sale, the £100.

    They cannot access anything else as it was never there to access. This is why they provide the "returns on us" (ROU) scheme, to assist buyers.

    If you feel that the ROU scheme isn't adequate you should use a payment service that suits your requirements.

    Bearing in mind your purchase was not covered by EU legislation, you perhaps should have thought about using a credit or debit card giving you different options in case of issues with the purchase.
    • discat11
    • By discat11 10th Mar 18, 7:27 AM
    • 340 Posts
    • 417 Thanks
    discat11
    In answer to your latter question & additional to the answer you received earlier in regards to pay not being responsible.
    The DSR /CCR regulations don't count for items purchased outside of the EU and after brexit won't apply to diddly squat if the UK doesn't get an agreement on that also.
    • Estelle77
    • By Estelle77 11th Mar 18, 9:22 PM
    • 55 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Estelle77
    Thanks for your answers. I have learned something new (about what Paypal can recover).

    To address one argument - that I have not convinced Paypal the item was counterfeit - they did not even ask! I offered them the photos, very detailed ones, they never asked for them. And it was not possible to upload them to the message I used to communicate with them - on their own website. I described in what condition it arrived, what it looked like, that the PC did not register it like it did the previous original item... I was happy to post it to them for examination or wherever it would be needed. They did not care.
    They only asked me to fax the documents of returning postage, with half incomplete message (failed to fill in the date for deadline and not providing details for uploading despite mentioning it as one of the options). I don't have access to a fax as easily. I had to write to them again and ask for the stupid instructions how to upload the documents. Then they gave me the instructions with a link and everything. This is their practice: I give a specific question and they come with generic answer which is often not even relevant - like now, suggesting to register for the ROU service, for the second time, after I briefly described the problem and from which it was apparent this repeated advice was irrelevant.

    And since the item was aroung £50 worth, credit card wold be even worse solution.
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