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  • FIRST POST
    • mmukhtar
    • By mmukhtar 8th Mar 18, 2:19 PM
    • 5Posts
    • 0Thanks
    mmukhtar
    Am I way too dumb!
    • #1
    • 8th Mar 18, 2:19 PM
    Am I way too dumb! 8th Mar 18 at 2:19 PM
    I was issued PCN by indigo parking services on 20/12/178 at Redhill train station for parking at "premier parking space" which I was not aware of existed as I was new to the area and didn't see the designation on the road surface due to high volume of vehicles. I did however paid the parking charges of the day.

    I didn't respond to initial PCN as my brother who was visiting me from Pakistan was the driver of the car that day. My car is registered to a different address in Sheffield where I used to permanently live with my wife however moved my place due to job location. She was away visiting family and friends so I didn't visit her and eventually lost the time to appeal as I didn't pick up overdue penalty notice to owner initially sent on 24/01/2018.

    I then received a debt recovery letter from ZZPS on 21/02/18 to recover the PCN cost and extra administration charges. I then emailed Indigo appeals service on 25/02/18 and then ZZPS on 28/02/18 detailing why I failed to respond and appeal in time to the notice. I also mentioned that I wasn't the driver and hence didn't accept responsibility for the contravention.

    Indigo appeals service (appeals@ipaymypcn.net) hasn't responded to me and ZZPS are insistent that I pay the charges otherwise they'll keep pursuing and increase the cost. I am not sure now how to respond as I don't want the costs to be pushed higher up since I am already due 170 now which is pure extortion but don't want to end up paying even higher costs. I also understand that POPLA is irrelevant now.

    If, by any chance, I do get a letter for court proceedings, will the burden of proving that my brother was travelling to the UK and using my car under correct insurance etc fall on me? Shall i wait it out for 06 months and if I don't get any court proceedings letter then forget about ti?

    Please help.
Page 1
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 8th Mar 18, 2:28 PM
    • 9,203 Posts
    • 8,968 Thanks
    The Deep
    • #2
    • 8th Mar 18, 2:28 PM
    • #2
    • 8th Mar 18, 2:28 PM
    Why not send them a letter naming your brother and give his address in Pakistan. Get a free certificate of posting.

    This is an entirely unregulated industry which is scamming the public with inflated claims for minor breaches of contracts for alleged parking offences.

    Parking Eye, Smart and a smaller company have already been named and shamed, as has Gladstones Solicitors, and BW Legal, (these two law firms take hundreds of these cases to court each year). They nearly always lose) and have been reported to the regulatory authority by an M.P.

    The problem has become so rampant that MPs have agreed to enact a Bill to regulate these scammers. Watch the video of the Second Reading in the HofC recently.

    http://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/2f0384f2-eba5-4fff-ab07-cf24b6a22918?in=12:49:41

    and complain in the most robust terms to your MP. With a fair wind most of these companies may well be put out of business by Christmas.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • waamo
    • By waamo 8th Mar 18, 2:39 PM
    • 3,183 Posts
    • 4,212 Thanks
    waamo
    • #3
    • 8th Mar 18, 2:39 PM
    • #3
    • 8th Mar 18, 2:39 PM
    I would ignore them from now on. They huff and puff and send threats but we have seen posters on here achieving a time out despite all their threats.
    This space for hire.
    • mmukhtar
    • By mmukhtar 8th Mar 18, 2:49 PM
    • 5 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    mmukhtar
    • #4
    • 8th Mar 18, 2:49 PM
    • #4
    • 8th Mar 18, 2:49 PM
    This is my most recent email correspondence to them. I foolishly confused railway bye law 14 with POFA 2012. :/

    Hi,

    The railway byelaws 14 that you earlier referred to clearly state that the !!!8220;driver!!!8221; at the time of contravention is liable for payment of fine. In case where driver information is not available, only then the owner of the vehicle can be approached. Since I am volunteering that information I don!!!8217;t see a reason as to why I should be held liable for this PCN. Unless you can send me any further evidence, please acknowledge my response as final and I am not willing to pay this extortionally high PCN fine. I have already emailed to indigo car parking servic S re relevant circumstances with regards to delay in the response which I mentioned to your colleague in my very first email as well. I can!!!8217;t clarify it any further. If you requir information about the driver at the time of alleged offence then I am willing to provide it.

    Please bear this in mind that I!!!8217;ll be inclined to use the misleading information that I am being provided re absolute liability of car owner and not the driver at the time of contravention in any legal proceedings and I state it on record.

    I have clarified my position on this issue now very clearly at least on two occasions with reference to railway byelaws laws you referred to. If it resolves the matter, I!!!8217;ll only be willing to do at the original PCN fine that was issued just to save myself time of going back and forth on emails. I have copied the indigo parking services in this correspondence as well since I didn!!!8217;t receive any reply to my previous appeal/correspondence and also because they are primary party to this issue.

    If above terms are not acceptable then I wouldn!!!8217;t indulge in any further correspondence and would consider further notices as harassment against the crime I didn!!!8217;t commit and reserve the right to initiate any legal proceedings I deem necessary.

    Thank you.
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 8th Mar 18, 2:53 PM
    • 36,621 Posts
    • 82,942 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    • #5
    • 8th Mar 18, 2:53 PM
    • #5
    • 8th Mar 18, 2:53 PM
    Either suggestion from T D or waamo will do.

    The land is covered by Byelaws and Indigo can't take you to court; normally only the train company or Network Rail can do this. They don't know who you are, and Indigo can't tell them without breaching the DPA.
    Once six months are up, nobody can do anything about it at all.

    In other words, you have nothing to worry about.

    Always, always ignore debt collectors. They have no powers whatsoever except to send people very poor quality bog paper.

    Keep all paperwork.
    Last edited by Fruitcake; 08-03-2018 at 2:58 PM.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • IamEmanresu
    • By IamEmanresu 8th Mar 18, 3:05 PM
    • 2,296 Posts
    • 4,099 Thanks
    IamEmanresu
    • #6
    • 8th Mar 18, 3:05 PM
    • #6
    • 8th Mar 18, 3:05 PM
    You might want to read this as it explains the contortions they have been getting themselves into for the past 2 years or more.

    https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/railway_station_car_park_operato#incoming-1118776

    The final sentence on the last page of the attachment is the key.
    Idiots please note: If you intend NOT to read the information on the Notice of Allocation and hand a simple win to the knuckle dragging ex-clampers, then don't waste people's time with questions on a claim you'll not defend.
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 8th Mar 18, 3:05 PM
    • 9,203 Posts
    • 8,968 Thanks
    The Deep
    • #7
    • 8th Mar 18, 3:05 PM
    • #7
    • 8th Mar 18, 3:05 PM
    If you require information about the driver at the time of alleged offence then I am willing to provide it.

    They do, and you should.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • twhitehousescat
    • By twhitehousescat 8th Mar 18, 3:07 PM
    • 1,264 Posts
    • 1,714 Thanks
    twhitehousescat
    • #8
    • 8th Mar 18, 3:07 PM
    • #8
    • 8th Mar 18, 3:07 PM
    Indigo appeals service (appeals@ipaymypcn.net)

    now check out WHO you emailed!
    http://www.ipaymypcn.net/#/page/terms

    Website usage Terms and Conditions

    Welcome to our website. If you continue to browse and use this website, you are agreeing to comply with and be bound by the following terms and conditions of use, which together with our privacy policy govern ZZPS's relationship with you in relation to this website. If you disagree with any part of these terms and conditions, please do not use our website.

    The term !!!8216;ZZPS!!!8217; or !!!8216;us!!!8217; or !!!8216;we!!!8217; refers to the owner of the website whose registered office is 71-75 Shelton Street, Covent Garden, London, WC2H 9JQ. The owner of the website is ZZPS Limited
    Time pretending I was asleep whilst under his desk , has given me insight to this sordid world
    • mmukhtar
    • By mmukhtar 8th Mar 18, 3:18 PM
    • 5 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    mmukhtar
    • #9
    • 8th Mar 18, 3:18 PM
    • #9
    • 8th Mar 18, 3:18 PM
    If you require information about the driver at the time of alleged offence then I am willing to provide it.

    They do, and you should.
    Originally posted by The Deep
    I showed them willingness to volunteer the information however they don't seem interested at all. Shall I still volunteer the information even if they haven't asked for it or shown interest. If not, I will write to them with a template as a final reply and then do nothing at all as suggested in the posts by the honorable members of this community. This is the reply that I got today:

    Good morning,

    I believe you have confused Railway Byelaw 14 with POFA 2012 or something else entirely, Railway Byelaw 14 states the following:

    "The owner of any motor vehicle, bicycle or other conveyance used, left or placed in breach of Byelaw 14(1) to 14(3) may be liable to pay a penalty as displayed in that area."

    Your comments have been noted and this is our final response to your emails outside of arranging payment.

    Kind regards,
    Leo Feather
    • mmukhtar
    • By mmukhtar 8th Mar 18, 3:22 PM
    • 5 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    mmukhtar
    Indigo appeals service (appeals@ipaymypcn.net)

    now check out WHO you emailed!

    Website usage Terms and Conditions

    Welcome to our website. If you continue to browse and use this website, you are agreeing to comply with and be bound by the following terms and conditions of use, which together with our privacy policy govern ZZPS's relationship with you in relation to this website. If you disagree with any part of these terms and conditions, please do not use our website.

    The term !!!8216;ZZPS!!!8217; or !!!8216;us!!!8217; or !!!8216;we!!!8217; refers to the owner of the website whose registered office is 71-75 Shelton Street, Covent Garden, London, WC2H 9JQ. The owner of the website is ZZPS Limited
    Originally posted by twhitehousescat

    OMG! I can't believe this. This would mean that INDIGO didn't get any of my correspondence as I emailed them and then cc'd further correspondence to this email thinking this is indigo that I am appealing to!
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 8th Mar 18, 3:26 PM
    • 36,621 Posts
    • 82,942 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    You want to get this past six months when it becomes statute barred. Give Indigo the name and address of the driver.

    Let us know what they say. If they don't accept the driver's details then you complain to the BPA.

    In any case, you should complain to your MP.

    These are some of the comments made by the MPs in Parliament concerning the unregulated parking industry (Feb 2018):

    https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2018-02-02/debates/CC84AF5E-AC6E-4E14-81B1-066E6A892807/Parking(CodeOfPractice)Bill

    ''Rip-offs from car park Cowboys must stop''; unfair treatment; signage deliberately confusing to ensure a PCN is issued; ''years of abuse by rogue parking companies''; bloodsuckers; ''the current system of regulation is hopeless, like putting Dracula in charge of the blood-bank''; extortionate fines; rogue operators; ''sense of injustice''; unfair charges and notices; wilfully misleading; signage is a deliberate act to deceive or mislead; ''confusing signs are often deliberate, to trap innocent drivers''; unreasonable; a curse; harassing; operating in a disgusting way; appeals service is no guarantee of a fair hearing; loathed; outrageous scam; dodgy practice; outrageous abuse; unscrupulous practices; ''the British Parking Association is as much use as a multi-storey car park in the Gobi desert''; and finally, by way of unanimous conclusion: ''we need to crack down on these rogue companies. They are an absolute disgrace to this country. Ordinary motorists and ordinary residents should not have to put up with this''.

    These are the exact words used, so you should quote them to your MP in a complaint and ask him/her to contact Sir Greg Knight MP if he wants further information about this scam.
    Last edited by Fruitcake; 08-03-2018 at 3:29 PM.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 8th Mar 18, 6:31 PM
    • 57,393 Posts
    • 70,997 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    You might want to read this as it explains the contortions they have been getting themselves into for the past 2 years or more.

    https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/railway_station_car_park_operato#incoming-1118776

    The final sentence on the last page of the attachment is the key.
    Originally posted by IamEmanresu
    Wow, I don't recall reading that before, IamEmanresu. Lots to make your stomach turn, when reading that epistle from the infamous Patrick Troy.

    The paragraph following the word 'fourthly' gives me another reason to detest the *work* of enemy of many BHAFC fans, Norman Baker MP. Encouraging TOCS to let private firms use fake PCNs to intimidate people, instead of following statutory byelaws.

    Back on topic, there's no need for the OP to ask anything else, because the answer to this is yes:
    Shall i wait it out for 06 months and if I don't get any court proceedings letter then forget about it?
    As confirmed in the Indigo Railway thread linked under the Q&A in the NEWBIES thread, that's all that is needed, apart from complaints to posters' MPs and to Sir Greg Knight.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 16-03-2018 at 12:31 AM.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • mmukhtar
    • By mmukhtar 15th Mar 18, 6:27 PM
    • 5 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    mmukhtar
    You want to get this past six months when it becomes statute barred. Give Indigo the name and address of the driver.

    Let us know what they say. If they don't accept the driver's details then you complain to the BPA.

    In any case, you should complain to your MP.

    These are some of the comments made by the MPs in Parliament concerning the unregulated parking industry (Feb 2018):

    ''Rip-offs from car park Cowboys must stop''; unfair treatment; signage deliberately confusing to ensure a PCN is issued; ''years of abuse by rogue parking companies''; bloodsuckers; ''the current system of regulation is hopeless, like putting Dracula in charge of the blood-bank''; extortionate fines; rogue operators; ''sense of injustice''; unfair charges and notices; wilfully misleading; signage is a deliberate act to deceive or mislead; ''confusing signs are often deliberate, to trap innocent drivers''; unreasonable; a curse; harassing; operating in a disgusting way; appeals service is no guarantee of a fair hearing; loathed; outrageous scam; dodgy practice; outrageous abuse; unscrupulous practices; ''the British Parking Association is as much use as a multi-storey car park in the Gobi desert''; and finally, by way of unanimous conclusion: ''we need to crack down on these rogue companies. They are an absolute disgrace to this country. Ordinary motorists and ordinary residents should not have to put up with this''.

    These are the exact words used, so you should quote them to your MP in a complaint and ask him/her to contact Sir Greg Knight MP if he wants further information about this scam.
    Originally posted by Fruitcake
    I don't intend to respond to them any more. Can I ask if the 6 month duration for court proceedings start form the day of PCN or the day when debt collectors issue their notice? Also if one makes it beyond six months, can they still go to court even though they know that it would become statute barred and there is no case? Finally what is the general policy of ZZPS on taking keepers to the court?
    This is my final reply to them. I can't volunteer the driver details of my car on the day of contravention to indigo as the appeals website is governed by ZZPS.

    Dear Debt Collector

    I wish you to note on your files that I deny any debt to you or your client [Indigo parking] as I have earlier mentioned about not being party to any parking contravention. I had appealed against the PCN citing my circumstances (clearly mentioned in previous emails) to the indigo appeals service (appeals@ipaymypcn.net) thinking that it was indigo parking but I have just realised that it is also managed by your agency which is very misleading.

    Also you haven't responded to my offer of supplying you with information on the person who was the driver at the time of PCN issuance. I again state that I am willing to provide the information if it is requested.

    Since you have no part in this issue, being merely being paid on commission, there is no reason to engage with you. I ask you to refer it back to your client. I will communicate with them directly should they wish to provide

    *a copy of the full unredacted contract they claim to have,
    *the basis for their claim - contractual sum, loss, or trespass,
    *and evidence that signage was in place in the location stated at the time

    Since you are unable to supply such information, it is pointless engaging in any more communication with you. I cannot guarantee replying to you, but I can guarantee I will pass on any further harassment to Trading Standards. You still haven't

    Thank you.
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 15th Mar 18, 6:33 PM
    • 2,454 Posts
    • 3,004 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    Date of PCN
    They can attempt to bring a private prosecution to the court, however the magistrates should not hear it
    ZZPS have never taken anyone to court. They certainly would not take someone to mags (the only place that can hear byelaws) as they literally pay out money and CANNOT get anything back.

    Of course you can tell Indigo the drivers details, if you wish. This isnt an appeal any logner.

    Those bullet points arent relevant for byelaws, surely? Youve copied that without confirming whether its any use.
    • waamo
    • By waamo 15th Mar 18, 7:03 PM
    • 3,183 Posts
    • 4,212 Thanks
    waamo
    Read this carefully http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5803499
    This space for hire.
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