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  • FIRST POST
    • Bitofageek
    • By Bitofageek 8th Mar 18, 9:52 AM
    • 4Posts
    • 3Thanks
    Bitofageek
    Conservatory Advice - Gap around frame and wall
    • #1
    • 8th Mar 18, 9:52 AM
    Conservatory Advice - Gap around frame and wall 8th Mar 18 at 9:52 AM
    Hi All,

    I have a few niggles bugging me about my new conservatory (purchased, fully paid and fitted in Oct/Nov 2017) from a local well established company who supply and fit and they seem to have all the certifications I would expect from a reputable company.

    In December 2017, I reported a leak down the inside wall of the conservatory quick response was received, were the fitters returned a couple of days later and used silicone between the frame and render throughout the whole frame from the inside.

    In January 2018, I see a dribble in one of the corners of the conservatory So called them again and got a quick response, fitters came out and removed the PVC trimming and about 1litre of water gushed out from behind. The fitters , the manager and a senior fitter On inspection they found water dripping through the nuts and bolts of the frame. So the removed the glass panels and used silicone all the way round which did not stop the dribble. Which left them scratching their heads on what the problem could be.


    My background before I continue I am an internal ISO 9001 quality inspector and Metrologist who specialises in troubleshooting measurement variation and measurement uncertainty. I could compile a report using calibrated tools as my disposal so that measurements are traceable to international standards and SI Units as just by looking at the fitment I can confirm they measured from the render rather than the brickwork of the house so when the frame was manufactured rather than having a product that is 5mm 2mm gap, the gap is 15mm 5mm gap, which I can do before I escalating.

    My opinion regarding this problem was that the source was the original source I reported back in December 2017 and had a suspicion that the leak was being redirected to the frame and due to a capillary effect and laws of gravity the water was running along the frame and through the nuts, to confirm this I used a hose and sprayed water in to the air and the wall of the house to confirm my suspicion As I expressed my opinion to the manager he replied with I shouldnt be spraying in to the frame and the rubber gasket above the glass, which I was quite offended by as this indicated he was suggesting I was making this up and making a problem when there wasnt one.

    So after a couple of weeks of head scratching and waiting for nature to run its course (waiting for a rainy day) a definitive confirmation of water running in to the house enabled me to call the company and ask them to return for them to see for themselves to which they agreed there is water behind the leading and confirmed the leading will need to be redone.

    They came out yesterday (07/03/2018) replaced 1 side of the leading and reworked the other side. What I mean by rework is, peeled back the lead cut deeper in to the render (not sure is they cut in to the block work behind the render) and recemented the leading to the render. I specifically asked them to remove the silicone between the conservatory and the house so I can keep an eye out for any more leaks.


    The reason I am asking for advice is, its left a really sour taste from this experience and now the quality inspector inside of me could be being pedantic because this is not my area of expertise. My question is should there be a 1520mm gap between the frame and the house? They advertise on their website that conservatories are energy efficient without compromising on the homes warmth which is why I when down the route of a new conservatory (to replace an existing one which IMO was warmer and did not leak) instead of doing an extension. Cost wise it would have been about the same because I paid extra for Pilkington Activ!!!8482; Blu glass as well as having every window and door replaced to reduce energy bills.


    I would really appreciate advice and how I should proceed. I have arranged a meeting at my house to discuss with the manager my concerns but I would like to be more informed about quality standards and workman ship standards for conservatories.

    I can't upload pictures as I am a new user, This thread can also be found with pictures on MLR forum.

    Many thanks in advance.
    Last edited by Bitofageek; 08-03-2018 at 11:23 AM. Reason: spelling
Page 1
    • Furts
    • By Furts 8th Mar 18, 11:57 AM
    • 4,292 Posts
    • 2,785 Thanks
    Furts
    • #2
    • 8th Mar 18, 11:57 AM
    • #2
    • 8th Mar 18, 11:57 AM
    Hi All,

    I have a few niggles bugging me about my new conservatory (purchased, fully paid and fitted in Oct/Nov 2017) from a local well established company who supply and fit and they seem to have all the certifications I would expect from a reputable company.

    In December 2017, I reported a leak down the inside wall of the conservatory quick response was received, were the fitters returned a couple of days later and used silicone between the frame and render throughout the whole frame from the inside.

    In January 2018, I see a dribble in one of the corners of the conservatory So called them again and got a quick response, fitters came out and removed the PVC trimming and about 1litre of water gushed out from behind. The fitters , the manager and a senior fitter On inspection they found water dripping through the nuts and bolts of the frame. So the removed the glass panels and used silicone all the way round which did not stop the dribble. Which left them scratching their heads on what the problem could be.


    My background before I continue I am an internal ISO 9001 quality inspector and Metrologist who specialises in troubleshooting measurement variation and measurement uncertainty. I could compile a report using calibrated tools as my disposal so that measurements are traceable to international standards and SI Units as just by looking at the fitment I can confirm they measured from the render rather than the brickwork of the house so when the frame was manufactured rather than having a product that is 5mm 2mm gap, the gap is 15mm 5mm gap, which I can do before I escalating.

    My opinion regarding this problem was that the source was the original source I reported back in December 2017 and had a suspicion that the leak was being redirected to the frame and due to a capillary effect and laws of gravity the water was running along the frame and through the nuts, to confirm this I used a hose and sprayed water in to the air and the wall of the house to confirm my suspicion As I expressed my opinion to the manager he replied with I shouldnt be spraying in to the frame and the rubber gasket above the glass, which I was quite offended by as this indicated he was suggesting I was making this up and making a problem when there wasnt one.

    So after a couple of weeks of head scratching and waiting for nature to run its course (waiting for a rainy day) a definitive confirmation of water running in to the house enabled me to call the company and ask them to return for them to see for themselves to which they agreed there is water behind the leading and confirmed the leading will need to be redone.

    They came out yesterday (07/03/2018) replaced 1 side of the leading and reworked the other side. What I mean by rework is, peeled back the lead cut deeper in to the render (not sure is they cut in to the block work behind the render) and recemented the leading to the render. I specifically asked them to remove the silicone between the conservatory and the house so I can keep an eye out for any more leaks.


    The reason I am asking for advice is, its left a really sour taste from this experience and now the quality inspector inside of me could be being pedantic because this is not my area of expertise. My question is should there be a 1520mm gap between the frame and the house? They advertise on their website that conservatories are energy efficient without compromising on the homes warmth which is why I when down the route of a new conservatory (to replace an existing one which IMO was warmer and did not leak) instead of doing an extension. Cost wise it would have been about the same because I paid extra for Pilkington Activ!!!8482; Blu glass as well as having every window and door replaced to reduce energy bills.


    I would really appreciate advice and how I should proceed. I have arranged a meeting at my house to discuss with the manager my concerns but I would like to be more informed about quality standards and workman ship standards for conservatories.

    I can't upload pictures as I am a new user, This thread can also be found with pictures on MLR forum.

    Many thanks in advance.
    Originally posted by Bitofageek

    You say you are a metrology expert and work in quality. Fine by me, but this raises three questions. First there is no way you have a 1520mm gap, so this needs re-calibrating. Second and third are very thorny issues. Savvy people do not have conservatories built. All the more so when the cost is no different to having an extension built. Third, nobody believes the nonsense spouted by conservatory companies about energy efficiency.


    Moving on, conservatories are completely unregulated construction - there are no rules so anything goes. They are a cowboys charter. Consequently there can be no such thing as a reputable conservatory company. This in turn means defects, complaints and leaks are what one buys into when ordering conservatory.


    Now a positive. If one gets a proper design, a proper survey, a proper manufacture, and a proper installation, then a conservatory can tick boxes. These boxes are low cost of total finished product, and extensive light levels. The end result can be impressive. Against this one balances short life, high maintenance and poor energy efficiency.


    It sounds like you are dealing with typical clueless cowboys who make up the industry. In addition I will chance two further observations. Bearing in mind I have not seen your installation (a proviso to cover my back) ... 1)your initial remedial work was wrong. Nobody seals a leak from the inside. In turn this means incompetence. 2) your roof will likely be a dry glazed system reliant on seals, compression seals, and flappers seals. This means any silicone work will have ruined the seal nature and just stored up future problems. Here we need to be crystal clear - it is likely your roof is now ruined.


    Chancing a little further, lead flashing is frequently done. However this is frequently against a cavity wall. This in turn means cavity trays, and weep vents should first have been installed. In 90+% of installations this is never done - "too much time and expense so lets con the consumer to maximise our profits" is the usual scenario.


    Just a few pointers .. over to you now!
    • DaftyDuck
    • By DaftyDuck 8th Mar 18, 11:59 AM
    • 4,193 Posts
    • 8,717 Thanks
    DaftyDuck
    • #3
    • 8th Mar 18, 11:59 AM
    • #3
    • 8th Mar 18, 11:59 AM
    ..... should there be a 1520mm gap between the frame and the house
    Only if you are fitting a substantial doorway in the gap....
    • Bitofageek
    • By Bitofageek 8th Mar 18, 1:05 PM
    • 4 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    Bitofageek
    • #4
    • 8th Mar 18, 1:05 PM
    15mm to 20mm
    • #4
    • 8th Mar 18, 1:05 PM
    You say you are a metrology expert and work in quality. Fine by me, but this raises three questions. First there is no way you have a 1520mm gap, so this needs re-calibrating. Second and third are very thorny issues. Savvy people do not have conservatories built. All the more so when the cost is no different to having an extension built. Third, nobody believes the nonsense spouted by conservatory companies about energy efficiency.


    Moving on, conservatories are completely unregulated construction - there are no rules so anything goes. They are a cowboys charter. Consequently there can be no such thing as a reputable conservatory company. This in turn means defects, complaints and leaks are what one buys into when ordering conservatory.


    Now a positive. If one gets a proper design, a proper survey, a proper manufacture, and a proper installation, then a conservatory can tick boxes. These boxes are low cost of total finished product, and extensive light levels. The end result can be impressive. Against this one balances short life, high maintenance and poor energy efficiency.


    It sounds like you are dealing with typical clueless cowboys who make up the industry. In addition I will chance two further observations. Bearing in mind I have not seen your installation (a proviso to cover my back) ... 1)your initial remedial work was wrong. Nobody seals a leak from the inside. In turn this means incompetence. 2) your roof will likely be a dry glazed system reliant on seals, compression seals, and flappers seals. This means any silicone work will have ruined the seal nature and just stored up future problems. Here we need to be crystal clear - it is likely your roof is now ruined.


    Chancing a little further, lead flashing is frequently done. However this is frequently against a cavity wall. This in turn means cavity trays, and weep vents should first have been installed. In 90+% of installations this is never done - "too much time and expense so lets con the consumer to maximise our profits" is the usual scenario.


    Just a few pointers .. over to you now!
    Originally posted by Furts
    Hi Furts,

    To answer your first question, i did type 15mm to 20mm as an estimate and not yet measured using a calibrated tool and the hyphen I used disappeared from the post, it also added lots of other random codes like !!!887; to which i had to edit out after posting. To answer the second and third question, it was the wifes decision to upgrade the existing conservatory personally if it was up to me i would have done an extension as it would have added value to the property. Thorny issues aside.

    MLR forum is a car forum and under non-lancer chat i have posted this thread with pictures to which the public has access to view, as i am unable to do so here.

    I understand what you mean about companies saying how efficient their product is but surely this is misleading and surely advertising standards authority can help clamp down?

    The company is FENSA and BSI registered and Member of the Consumer Protection Association which to me meant they are regulated in some way and as I asked previously it's not an area I am familiar with but looks like i may have to read up on some of the standards to educate myself.

    The company did provide drawings and to my knowledge came out 3 times to do a survey and their manufacturing is done by Liniar and ALUK who have ISO 9001 accreditation so the traceability aspect was there. From my guess they measure and then do the assembly in their warehouse (i've visited in the past) and then deliver and use a sub-contractor to do the work but all payment are made this company.

    Thank you for confirming that sealing from the inside is a sign of incompetence of the sub-contractor they use and for your advice about the compression/dry seal. The lead is on part cavity wall 5% and the rest is on the render where they chipped away for the lip to sit in.

    Behind the render is Breeze block , so property developers are getting away with cutting cost but that out of my control by about 30 years. regardless the question is if it's breeze block should the render have been removed for the lead to sit flush or is it ok to make a lip through the render and through the breeze block? should the cavity trays have been installed ?

    Basically i'm getting the feeling now that the work is done and because they re-leaded and I honestly thought coming here and sharing my experience would help me clarify if their is a manufacturing fault and if i should escalate but instead I get the feeling i should cut my losses and bodge the gaps because no one GAF.

    Looks like Trading standards and CPA is the way forward.
    • Bitofageek
    • By Bitofageek 8th Mar 18, 1:06 PM
    • 4 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    Bitofageek
    • #5
    • 8th Mar 18, 1:06 PM
    • #5
    • 8th Mar 18, 1:06 PM
    Only if you are fitting a substantial doorway in the gap....
    Originally posted by DaftyDuck
    Not a bad Idea
    • Aylesbury Duck
    • By Aylesbury Duck 8th Mar 18, 1:11 PM
    • 2,000 Posts
    • 2,637 Thanks
    Aylesbury Duck
    • #6
    • 8th Mar 18, 1:11 PM
    • #6
    • 8th Mar 18, 1:11 PM
    I've been onto the other forum to take a look at your photos and....good God that's an appalling job. You say you are an "ISO 9001 quality inspector and Metrologist who specialises in troubleshooting measurement variation and measurement uncertainty." I would suggest you are vastly over-qualified to inspect this job. I could measure the measurement variation and uncertainty on your conservatory with a potato.

    From the images you've posted, you have been built what can best be described as a glass lean-to. I would be insisting the "reputable" company who did this take it down and erect it properly.
    Please forgive the deliberate omission of apostrophes on some posts whilst I await MSE to do something about the daft codes that appear in their place when typing on certain devices.
    • TheCyclingProgrammer
    • By TheCyclingProgrammer 8th Mar 18, 3:17 PM
    • 3,176 Posts
    • 1,853 Thanks
    TheCyclingProgrammer
    • #7
    • 8th Mar 18, 3:17 PM
    • #7
    • 8th Mar 18, 3:17 PM
    I think alarm bells tend to go off when you describe their approach to fixing a leak as "using silicone". The sure sign of a bodger!
    • Furts
    • By Furts 8th Mar 18, 5:09 PM
    • 4,292 Posts
    • 2,785 Thanks
    Furts
    • #8
    • 8th Mar 18, 5:09 PM
    • #8
    • 8th Mar 18, 5:09 PM
    Hi Furts,

    To answer your first question, i did type 15mm to 20mm as an estimate and not yet measured using a calibrated tool and the hyphen I used disappeared from the post, it also added lots of other random codes like !!!887; to which i had to edit out after posting. To answer the second and third question, it was the wifes decision to upgrade the existing conservatory personally if it was up to me i would have done an extension as it would have added value to the property. Thorny issues aside.

    MLR forum is a car forum and under non-lancer chat i have posted this thread with pictures to which the public has access to view, as i am unable to do so here.

    I understand what you mean about companies saying how efficient their product is but surely this is misleading and surely advertising standards authority can help clamp down?

    The company is FENSA and BSI registered and Member of the Consumer Protection Association which to me meant they are regulated in some way and as I asked previously it's not an area I am familiar with but looks like i may have to read up on some of the standards to educate myself.

    The company did provide drawings and to my knowledge came out 3 times to do a survey and their manufacturing is done by Liniar and ALUK who have ISO 9001 accreditation so the traceability aspect was there. From my guess they measure and then do the assembly in their warehouse (i've visited in the past) and then deliver and use a sub-contractor to do the work but all payment are made this company.

    Thank you for confirming that sealing from the inside is a sign of incompetence of the sub-contractor they use and for your advice about the compression/dry seal. The lead is on part cavity wall 5% and the rest is on the render where they chipped away for the lip to sit in.

    Behind the render is Breeze block , so property developers are getting away with cutting cost but that out of my control by about 30 years. regardless the question is if it's breeze block should the render have been removed for the lead to sit flush or is it ok to make a lip through the render and through the breeze block? should the cavity trays have been installed ?

    Basically i'm getting the feeling now that the work is done and because they re-leaded and I honestly thought coming here and sharing my experience would help me clarify if their is a manufacturing fault and if i should escalate but instead I get the feeling i should cut my losses and bodge the gaps because no one GAF.

    Looks like Trading standards and CPA is the way forward.
    Originally posted by Bitofageek
    I have now looked at your photos. I am at a loss for words on the flashing - unbelievable!


    There are also no cavity trays so water ingress is a given within your conservatory regardless of the appalling flashing details.


    There is also a vertical crack down your wall within ths conservatory - so that gives three routes so far for rain to penetrate your conservatory.


    The silicone sealant of the vertical joint is a joke - there appears to be fire resistant expanding foam visible, and the sealant does not make full contact with both vertical surfaces.


    Then we come to the roof. There are no photos here unless the nut is one of these? It could be where the roof meets the wall plate above the frames.


    Enough said. Clearly to call your conservatory company a bunch of cowboys is showing great disrespect to cowboys. They are usually more skilled that those that visited you.


    Looking at what we see, it is almost certain everything about the construction is bodged. This means rectification is impossible without removing the conservatory and starting again.


    If you have dwarf walls then it is likely these too are wrong, complete with the foundations and floor slab.


    Do not be alarmed - this is an every day conservatory issue. It goes with the territory and it is almost 99% certain your conservatory company is dismantling and re- erecting conservatories on a weekly basis.


    Been there, seen it, got the tee shirt, water off a duck's back to me. But I do know a little about conservatories, and building, so you may not like what I say, but you will not find great fault with my knowledge!
    • Aylesbury Duck
    • By Aylesbury Duck 8th Mar 18, 5:25 PM
    • 2,000 Posts
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    Aylesbury Duck
    • #9
    • 8th Mar 18, 5:25 PM
    • #9
    • 8th Mar 18, 5:25 PM
    Bitofageek, now you know what you know I think this changes the nature of the meeting you have arranged with the company. As Furts says, rectifying the problems can only be done by taking the structure down and re-building it properly. Anything else will be a bodge to remedy each existing bodge, as can be seen with the supposedly fixed flashing. From the limited pictures you've made available they've done a horrendous job and I hope for your sake that the slab on which it sits and any dwarf walls are not built to the same level of quality.
    Please forgive the deliberate omission of apostrophes on some posts whilst I await MSE to do something about the daft codes that appear in their place when typing on certain devices.
    • Furts
    • By Furts 8th Mar 18, 8:49 PM
    • 4,292 Posts
    • 2,785 Thanks
    Furts
    Bitofageek, now you know what you know I think this changes the nature of the meeting you have arranged with the company. As Furts says, rectifying the problems can only be done by taking the structure down and re-building it properly. Anything else will be a bodge to remedy each existing bodge, as can be seen with the supposedly fixed flashing. From the limited pictures you've made available they've done a horrendous job and I hope for your sake that the slab on which it sits and any dwarf walls are not built to the same level of quality.
    Originally posted by Aylesbury Duck
    There is an elephant in the room which has not yet roared to anybody. The brutal truth is the wrong roof has been installed. The repercussions of this in terms of remedial work are eye watering. Which means OP has some deep soul searching to do, or serious questions to ask. Who specified this roof, what clauses were attached to its design, and who signed it off?

    A ball park figure to rectify just the roof would depend on if it is a trade remedial job, or somebody else gets employed on a commercial standing. Stab at say 5000-6000. Then there are the walls, the slab and anything else. All round it could cost 10000 to rectify the issues - could even be more. But with these figures expect a fight - cowboys build conservatories but they do not like taking a hit for sums of money like that.
    • Furts
    • By Furts 9th Mar 18, 8:06 AM
    • 4,292 Posts
    • 2,785 Thanks
    Furts
    Hi Furts,


    Basically i'm getting the feeling now that the work is done and because they re-leaded and I honestly thought coming here and sharing my experience would help me clarify if their is a manufacturing fault and if i should escalate but instead I get the feeling i should cut my losses and bodge the gaps because no one GAF.
    Originally posted by Bitofageek

    This is being harsh for three reasons. It is not a case of "no one" because people on this forum do GAF otherwise they would not be giving up their time and knowledge to assist you.

    Second you have entered a dispute with your conservatory company and matters are going to turn complex. That is inevitable and a simple fact of life. This means you have to know the facts, and you have to know your negotiating position. What has been pointed out to you is that position is weak because you cannot rap the table with a spoon and claim contravention of masses of rules. Why? Because in the conservatory industry there are few rules, and there are also opaque rules. To re-iterate the point made earlier you are dealing with unregulated work in an unregulated industry.

    Third back to "no one". You are experienced, qualified and a perfectionist type. You are referring to GAF. Where was your sense of GAF during the initial consultations, the design, the Specification, the construction, the inspection and the signing off? You know all about QA and ISO so why were you commissioning and paying for unregulated work? It appears you discarded any concept of due diligence to yourself. This is not being harsh because you are entering a dispute and you have to know your negotiating position. Your position is weak bacause of you failure with due diligence.

    All this comes back to my posts above. Any consumer seeking a conservatory is playing with fire. As a result they are likely to get burnt. This is a simple fact of life. Unfortunately you are on of the many who have been burnt.
    • Vegastare
    • By Vegastare 9th Mar 18, 8:48 AM
    • 53 Posts
    • 9 Thanks
    Vegastare
    Furt....what a solid reply. Any work is done with risk - no matter who and how we choose.
    In our home have talked so much about having conservatory or extension. Not moved forward yet - seeing that we are render and brick construction also now more questions in my head.

    Hope this is resolved, I would not walk away from the concerns, these companies join these trade groups - so I would use them, plus our money is hard earned, so should there's be too.
    • Furts
    • By Furts 9th Mar 18, 11:13 AM
    • 4,292 Posts
    • 2,785 Thanks
    Furts
    Furt....what a solid reply. Any work is done with risk - no matter who and how we choose.
    In our home have talked so much about having conservatory or extension. Not moved forward yet - seeing that we are render and brick construction also now more questions in my head.

    Hope this is resolved, I would not walk away from the concerns, these companies join these trade groups - so I would use them, plus our money is hard earned, so should there's be too.
    Originally posted by Vegastare
    I too hope it is resolved but a broader picture by a country mile probably exists here.

    The conservatory has been supplied in Rosewood. Why? Think of the summer sun and the expansion and contraction, plus gradual uv damage.

    The windows and doors were then replaced to match. Why? Again the expansion and contraction and ..you get the idea.

    Then yet another elephant in the room. The conservatory is diabolical so what standard of work exists on all the replacement windows and doors? OP says these were all done as part of a package to energy efficiency upgrade

    Of course all this needs sorting out, but what a ghastly position to be in and it is almost a case of "where does one start?"

    For the broader picture and a warning to all consumers this is stark reminder of what can happen when entering the replacement window, door and conservatory industry.

    It is likely to be another saga like that of ClaireBear and the problems with Ventrolla a year or so back - all comes to memory but for exact details everyone do their own searches here!

    But then again none of us are wanted on this forum for our views, sob, sob! OP is busy with MLR Forum so we are just a default second best! Let us all hope one way or another it gets resolved.
    • Aylesbury Duck
    • By Aylesbury Duck 9th Mar 18, 11:39 AM
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    Aylesbury Duck
    Crikey, I've just read OP's letter to the conservatory company which is available on the other forum. He's gone into a good level of detail and has included lots of photographs. The installation is absolutely awful.

    As you say Furts, where was the OP's due diligence before the work was carried out, given his experience in quality control?

    OP, I hope you get this sorted but I suspect you face a long and probably fruitless task in doing so.
    Please forgive the deliberate omission of apostrophes on some posts whilst I await MSE to do something about the daft codes that appear in their place when typing on certain devices.
    • Furts
    • By Furts 9th Mar 18, 4:07 PM
    • 4,292 Posts
    • 2,785 Thanks
    Furts
    Crikey, I've just read OP's letter to the conservatory company which is available on the other forum. He's gone into a good level of detail and has included lots of photographs. The installation is absolutely awful.

    As you say Furts, where was the OP's due diligence before the work was carried out, given his experience in quality control?

    OP, I hope you get this sorted but I suspect you face a long and probably fruitless task in doing so.
    Originally posted by Aylesbury Duck

    It is not a good letter, nor is the presentation convincing. It highlights issues that are defective yet remains silent on so many matters. All round a worrying prospect for OP. Clearly there are problems but there are numerous "buts".


    OP says they are a perfectionist type of person, and highlights their "troubleshooting" ability in the letter. He then proceeds to cherry pick comments from this forum and from the mlr forum. I doubt that anyone on this forum has visited the conservatory, and I suspect likewise of the mlr forum - one only has to look at the time frame. Which means OP is setting themselves up for a fall. If the conservatory company rejects the letter what then?


    We have debated OP not following due diligence, but then neither do we think OP engaged any professional help with the concept, design, build, and inspection. Of course this would incur a cost.


    OP has now done due diligence of a sorts but again without incurring any cost. Which is a cheap skate way of shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted.


    Had OP commissioned an independent report from a suitably qualified person, with the requisite designatory letters then the conservatory company might be more willing to do something.


    I get the impression OP has again failed in the due diligence stakes, but since there has been to feedback to any recent posts I will leave this as an open comment.
    • Bitofageek
    • By Bitofageek 9th Mar 18, 6:32 PM
    • 4 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    Bitofageek
    Firstly I would like to a apologise for coming across as a perfectionist and secondly if I have offended anyone. I also apologise for not responding sooner, I am in the middle of wedding plans, appointments with a pregnant wife to be and am very busy at work.

    Today I have had a successful meeting with the managing director of the window company. When I initially referred to the company as a 'reputable' company I was fairly confident that my conservatory plans were fine. I have also used the same company for all of my new windows and composite doors and have had no problems.

    I admit that I should looked at the plans and I should have gone through the concept and design in more detail but in my mind I was only replacing the windows and roof and I had confidence that the company knew what they were doing. I would also highlight here that the dwarf walls and the footings etc were already in place from the original house build as this conservatory is just an upgrade from the previous dated poly carbonate conservatory which was there when I purchased the house. To me paying a few thousand to upgrade the roof and windows really wasn't a life changing decision and I didn't see the need to go to such detail with the build. I am aware that a conservatory isn't the greatest investment as mentioned earlier in one of my posts and I certainly wouldn't have had one built from scratch.

    My letter as seen on the MLR forum is just a draft for myself to use for reference when confronting the manager with the problems at hand. This letter is not an official letter and if I were to send an official letter I would have asked my wife (who happens to be a solicitor) to compose it for me because my writing isn't the best as pointed out by the majority of you. I would also commission an independent report from a suitability qualified person at my own cost. In my defense, my position as a metrologist and a quality inspector requires an eye for detail and a high level of mathematics so forgive me but my writing is one of my weaknesses. My assistant takes care of all of the paperwork and writing haha.

    The managing director has acknowledged the various problems and has agreed to redo all of the work until I am 100% happy. The rework will include all necessary parts such as new glass, bars, new leading, new caps and ensuring that the conservatory sits square. The entire leading is going to be removed and redone to my satisfaction and strictly no silicone to be used at any point (other than lead seal). I am still unsure about the use of cavity trays as the top half of the wall is constructed from block-work so any advice here would be appreciated so I can ensure this will be carried out. I will be onsite during the rework and I would like to ensure I have an idea about how the work should be carried out.

    I made it very clear to the manager that I am not happy with the level of workmanship and he couldn't argue with me. Instead he phoned the fitter and asked him to come over and questioned the fitter as to why it looks the way it does and what happened. The fitter didn't have too many answers and didn't look very happy.

    I am happy with the outcome today and thank you all for your time and useful advice. I didn't want to escalate matters and the obvious problem here is the inexperienced and incompetent fitters. I am confident that this matter has been dealt with professionally today and I have not needed to escalate matters further as the issues have been taken seriously and I have been reassured that I will receive a letter outlining all of the work which is to be done as discussed today with the managing director.

    I live on a very sought after development where the company in question carry out a lot of their work and I am sure their reputation is valuable to them. The fitters they use are subcontractors and after today the managing director has questioned the competence of his fitters skill and knowledge.
    • Slinky
    • By Slinky 9th Mar 18, 8:17 PM
    • 5,241 Posts
    • 24,219 Thanks
    Slinky
    Perhaps the MD should consider employing his own fitters rather than relying on subbies.


    I hope you get it sorted.
    • Furts
    • By Furts 11th Mar 18, 2:05 PM
    • 4,292 Posts
    • 2,785 Thanks
    Furts
    Building in cavity trays would be easy with brickwork, but you have rendered blockwork. You might make make a pragmatic decision and say the render is acting as a waterproof layer so moisture should not be excessive within your cavity, plus the window above and your conservatory roof mean the area of exposed wall is much reduced.


    The easier tray answer is one horizontal tray having located an appropriate bed joint. This should have been considered as part of your original design - but so should the roof shape. A pitched roof abutting a blockwork rendered wall is not a wise decision.


    These are fundamentals and your "reputable" company should have discussed all this with you, then an informed decision would have followed.


    I am deeply uneasy with the actions of the MD. Playing nice guy, bad guy seems to have won you over, but it is not something I condone. The MD will be fully aware of the fitters used, so to chastise and humiliate the fitter in front of you reflects poorly on the MD. Perhaps the MD is a bully, perhaps they are clueless on conservatory installations, or perhaps they are full of bravado and all round sales nonsense. Who knows but it is not a professional approach. But neither has anything about your conservatory been a professional approach, so these concepts marry here. However these two items also indicate that your "reputable" company is woefully lacking in the "reputable" stakes.


    You may be happy with your windows and doors but I suspect these are as poorly installed as your conservatory. You have the ear of the MD so you would be foolish not to scrutinise every aspect of these items and throw them into the remedial pot to be rectified at the same time as your conservatory.
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