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  • FIRST POST
    • dwtmahdc
    • By dwtmahdc 7th Mar 18, 5:44 PM
    • 60Posts
    • 21Thanks
    dwtmahdc
    Football Index
    • #1
    • 7th Mar 18, 5:44 PM
    Football Index 7th Mar 18 at 5:44 PM
    Wondering who else has got involved in this?

    I joined up a couple of years ago, but only been 'seriously' into it in the last year.

    Strong growth (up c. 34% in capital growth and dividends), and the platform is expanding.

    A few people have £00,000s in (definitely not me!) due to the lack of taxes.

    (NB- I've no interest in sending out referral codes. This thread's not about that, so please don't ask. Google the site if you want a link ).
Page 2
    • eskbanker
    • By eskbanker 13th Jan 19, 1:16 PM
    • 9,804 Posts
    • 11,670 Thanks
    eskbanker
    The bottom line is that the only people making money out of football are those who play it at the top level
    Originally posted by dividendhero
    Agents don't do too badly, and managers are well compensated (when employed obvs) for the pressures of the role. TV companies must make a fair old pile out of it too, given how much they're prepared to pay for the rights. Oh, and betting companies, etc....

    But yes, hard to disagree with the fundamental point that this scheme has a finite pot and so is a zero sum game.
    • cjv
    • By cjv 13th Jan 19, 10:57 PM
    • 449 Posts
    • 235 Thanks
    cjv
    Looks simply to be a gambling website.

    I would not call it a scam, but it does not belong in savings and investments.
    • TBC15
    • By TBC15 14th Jan 19, 4:34 AM
    • 776 Posts
    • 426 Thanks
    TBC15
    I was leafing through last February’s copy of What Investment and what should I find on the back page, an ad for football index.
    • djasha68
    • By djasha68 14th Jan 19, 10:07 AM
    • 11 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    djasha68
    Stock market is a Ponzi scheme
    I was looking through SEC definition of a Ponzi scheme and I realized the stock market is a Ponzi scheme. Dont believe me, go and look at what Tan Liu tells you about the stock market and things you definitely do not know about dividends.
    I cant post links so go on youtube and search for Tan Liu interview.
    • HappyHarry
    • By HappyHarry 14th Jan 19, 10:59 AM
    • 908 Posts
    • 1,330 Thanks
    HappyHarry
    I was looking through SEC definition of a Ponzi scheme and I realized the stock market is a Ponzi scheme. Dont believe me, go and look at what Tan Liu tells you about the stock market and things you definitely do not know about dividends.
    I cant post links so go on youtube and search for Tan Liu interview.
    Originally posted by djasha68

    The stock market is not a ponzi scheme, despite what some guy trying to sell a book wants you to believe.
    I am an Independent Financial Adviser. Any comments I make here are intended for information / discussion only. Nothing I post here should be construed as advice. If you are looking for individual financial advice, please contact a local Independent Financial Adviser.
    • Malthusian
    • By Malthusian 14th Jan 19, 11:14 AM
    • 5,433 Posts
    • 8,992 Thanks
    Malthusian
    I was looking through SEC definition of a Ponzi scheme and I realized the stock market is a Ponzi scheme.
    Originally posted by djasha68
    Wrong. Ponzi schemes are zero sum games. A stockmarket is not a zero sum game as the companies on it aim to carry on business and generate profits which are distributed to stockholders. External revenue entering the system = not zero sum game = not Ponzi.

    Dont believe me, go and look at what Tan Liu tells you about the stock market and things you definitely do not know about dividends.
    I cant post links so go on youtube and search for Tan Liu interview.
    Things I don't know about dividends #1: why I would waste my time watching somebody stutter into a camera, when financial information is conveyed more efficiently by text and still images. If the information is of value, post a link to where I can read it.

    When I Googled Tan Liu, Google gave me the following snippet:
    Tan Liu was born in Beijing, China. He moved to the U.S. when he was six and was raised outside Washington D.C. Unlike his sister who finished high school...
    Thanks again Professor Google!
    • Malthusian
    • By Malthusian 14th Jan 19, 11:24 AM
    • 5,433 Posts
    • 8,992 Thanks
    Malthusian
    I was leafing through last February’s copy of What Investment and what should I find on the back page, an ad for football index.
    Originally posted by TBC15
    Please tell me you don't subscribe to that publication.

    They asked me for a rentaquote a while ago and I had to tell them why promoting unregulated investments in care homes (from a company that was also promoting a "low risk" forex investment paying 24% a year) in their publication would be a bad idea. What Investment has also promoted a certain unregulated scheme which offers c. 8% for investing in leased cars.
    • Aretnap
    • By Aretnap 14th Jan 19, 12:37 PM
    • 3,228 Posts
    • 2,805 Thanks
    Aretnap
    I was looking through SEC definition of a Ponzi scheme and I realized the stock market is a Ponzi scheme. Dont believe me, go and look at what Tan Liu tells you about the stock market and things you definitely do not know about dividends.
    I cant post links so go on youtube and search for Tan Liu interview.
    Originally posted by djasha68
    I was about to respond o this drivel, but then I realised that there's no need because it has no relevance to the subject of the thread. The stock market could be a total scam and the worst investment in the world. It still wouldn't make it a good idea to put your savings into a pretend stock market run by a bookies in the Channel Islands.
    • firestone
    • By firestone 14th Jan 19, 3:04 PM
    • 370 Posts
    • 165 Thanks
    firestone
    I was about to respond o this drivel, but then I realised that there's no need because it has no relevance to the subject of the thread. The stock market could be a total scam and the worst investment in the world. It still wouldn't make it a good idea to put your savings into a pretend stock market run by a bookies in the Channel Islands.
    Originally posted by Aretnap
    Would agree even if it was a ponzi scheme - pretending to own a share of a footballer (which you don't)and with no real value for that pretend share is not the same as holding a real share of the biggest companies in the world
    Last edited by firestone; 14-01-2019 at 3:07 PM.
    • Clive Woody
    • By Clive Woody 14th Jan 19, 3:57 PM
    • 4,631 Posts
    • 5,244 Thanks
    Clive Woody
    Maybe it will be "featured on MSE" soon.
    Originally posted by Alexland
    No doubt there will soon be a Facebook advert for this scheme featuring Martin's image, with a recommended by MSE tagline
    "We act as though comfort and luxury are the chief requirements of life, when all that we need to make us happy is something to be enthusiastic about” – Albert Einstein
    • TBC15
    • By TBC15 14th Jan 19, 4:58 PM
    • 776 Posts
    • 426 Thanks
    TBC15
    Please tell me you don't subscribe to that publication.

    They asked me for a rentaquote a while ago and I had to tell them why promoting unregulated investments in care homes (from a company that was also promoting a "low risk" forex investment paying 24% a year) in their publication would be a bad idea. What Investment has also promoted a certain unregulated scheme which offers c. 8% for investing in leased cars.
    Originally posted by Malthusian
    I’m afraid I do. Took it out must be over 20yrs ago. At the time it was one of the only places you could get UT/IT performances, short of the professional rag that cost a fortune.

    Must admit it’s mostly a collection of adverts with the odd food for thought. As I only pay about 3 shillings a year for subscription (it was one of the early subs….. you will never pay a penny more was their sales pitch) I keep it on for the fund performance pages.

    A little late at night cogitation away from the screen is quite restful.
    Last edited by TBC15; 14-01-2019 at 4:59 PM. Reason: formatting
    • djasha68
    • By djasha68 15th Jan 19, 1:38 AM
    • 11 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    djasha68
    Divs
    Comes from thin air? 2% commission from sales of players pays for the divs.
    • djasha68
    • By djasha68 15th Jan 19, 2:42 AM
    • 11 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    djasha68
    Divs
    2% commission on every sale pays bills. People selling all the time.
    Someone said its a Ponzi scheme, they are right, it is by definition. Just as the stock market is. Your investing money to make money, no real product has been purchased, is that not a Ponzi scheme?
    Most companies do not pay dividend so you rely on other peoples money to raise the price of your shares, if they take it out, you have winners and losers. Exactly what happens in football Index. By definition they are both Ponzi schemes. The dividends from football Index come out of their earnings, they are paid on a daily basis, you can take your money out at any time. The issue is whether you believe the company is trust worthy and has longevity. Gambling is massive as you know, no shortage of money is likely, what happens in the stock market if no one invested or they all take their money out? The stock market is a massive gamble, no Guarantee of winning, you can change the wording all you like, it's a gamble each time you purchase shares.
    • Aegis
    • By Aegis 15th Jan 19, 8:05 AM
    • 5,076 Posts
    • 3,402 Thanks
    Aegis
    2% commission on every sale pays bills. People selling all the time.
    Someone said its a Ponzi scheme, they are right, it is by definition. Just as the stock market is. Your investing money to make money, no real product has been purchased, is that not a Ponzi scheme?
    Most companies do not pay dividend so you rely on other peoples money to raise the price of your shares, if they take it out, you have winners and losers. Exactly what happens in football Index. By definition they are both Ponzi schemes. The dividends from football Index come out of their earnings, they are paid on a daily basis, you can take your money out at any time. The issue is whether you believe the company is trust worthy and has longevity. Gambling is massive as you know, no shortage of money is likely, what happens in the stock market if no one invested or they all take their money out? The stock market is a massive gamble, no Guarantee of winning, you can change the wording all you like, it's a gamble each time you purchase shares.
    Originally posted by djasha68

    You have fundamentally misunderstood the difference between a Ponzi scheme and investments. A Ponzi scheme is where the returns of those who get in at a certain time can only be funded by more people signing up and putting money into the system. The issue here is that there are no returns, only a redistribution of investor money, therefore it is at best a zero-sum game, meaning there is no external capital coming into the system from anywhere else. In reality, the scheme will always be negative-sum because some costs will be levied to line the pockets of the scheme promoters in some way (e.g. a commission charge for buying or selling units).

    Now, if the players themselves are paying a proportion of their earnings into the system, there's a form of external investment into the system and it could become a positive-sum game based loosely on a bond market. However, the issue of longevity then comes into play. With typical bonds, you buy a notional amount of that bond which is then repaid at maturity. With a football index, if you hold a player to retirement, presumably that player is then worth nothing, as their earnings fall to zero. So to break even, you'd need to receive extremely high dividends over the course of their life, which would require a large proportion of that player's earnings to come into the system. Presumably this proportion wouldn't increase just because their value on the index went up, so on that basis you'd expect the players to be priced like a riskier form of short-term annuity. Most people just aren't equipped to value that, so you'd end up paying a stupidly high value for an unreliable income stream with no capital at the end.


    Stock markets are different. When you buy a share in a company, you become legally entitled to a proportion of any residual value of that company on winding up, and to any dividends paid to that class of shareholder, which are funded by the company's business activities. As these activities are external to the stock market itself, money flows into the market if the majority of companies are making profits, therefore the system is positive-sum, meaning there is no point at which someone would be expected to buy the market and lose everything because the system becomes unsustainable. Rather they are expected to grow on average because the average company in the market is expected to grow its business and generate some form of profit.

    In summary, no, the stock market isn't a Ponzi scheme, but this quite possibly is - simply ask the question "what happens if there are no new transactions for a month or two" and think about where the "dividends" would then come from then.
    I am an Independent Financial Adviser
    Anything I say on the forum is for discussion purposes only and should not be construed as personal financial advice. It is vitally important to do your own research before acting on information gathered from any users on this forum.
    • Aretnap
    • By Aretnap 15th Jan 19, 8:33 AM
    • 3,228 Posts
    • 2,805 Thanks
    Aretnap
    Comparisons with the stockmarket are not just wrong (for the reasons Aegis gives), they are irrelevant.

    "I don't trust the stockmarket, so I'm going to keep all my money in the bank"
    "I don't trust the stockmarket, so I'm going to buy gold"
    "I don't trust the stockmarket, so I'm going to hide all my money in the mattress"

    All of these arguments are wrong, IMO, but at least they all have a certain internal logic. However;

    "I don't trust the stockmarket, so I'm going to give all my money to a Jersey bookmaker"

    That's quite a spectacular leap of logic.

    Also I note that in the space of about two posts djasha has gone from "it's not a Ponzi scheme, how dare you call it a Ponzi scheme" to "everything is a Ponzi scheme, so you might as well invest in my Ponzi scheme", which is quite a turnaround.
    • Malthusian
    • By Malthusian 15th Jan 19, 9:42 AM
    • 5,433 Posts
    • 8,992 Thanks
    Malthusian
    2% commission on every sale pays bills. People selling all the time.
    Someone said its a Ponzi scheme, they are right, it is by definition.
    Originally posted by djasha68
    Close, as they are both zero-sum games, although there are crucial differences between an honest gambling game and a fraudulent Ponzi scheme which I have already covered.

    Just as the stock market is. Your investing money to make money, no real product has been purchased,
    Doctor doctor, I think I have a collapsed premise.

    Most companies do not pay dividend so you rely on other peoples money to raise the price of your shares
    Companies which don't pay dividends reinvest their profits to grow the business. Either way the shareholders benefit from external revenue entering the system. The external revenue that disqualifies the stockmarket as a Ponzi scheme is not dividends - or not directly. - It is profits generated by the companies adding value through their business. A minority of businesses (in a developed stockmarket index) will fail to do that and go bust.

    In summary, no, the stock market isn't a Ponzi scheme, but this quite possibly is - simply ask the question "what happens if there are no new transactions for a month or two" and think about where the "dividends" would then come from then.
    by Aegis
    The way the Football Index game works is that the player contracts expire without any value after three years, unless someone buys it off you. This is all disclosed upfront. As long as Football Index has enough money in the system to maintain dividends until the contracts expire with no value (at which point the player holding them loses their money and the house wins), there's no Ponzi shenanigans going on here. It's a zero-sum game like any gambling game, but not a Ponzi.

    Why run a Ponzi scheme when you can get mugs to hand over money for a perfectly legitimate gambling game without the legal liability?
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