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    • Beenie
    • By Beenie 7th Mar 18, 5:03 PM
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    Beenie
    Power of Attorney
    • #1
    • 7th Mar 18, 5:03 PM
    Power of Attorney 7th Mar 18 at 5:03 PM
    I am getting confusing and contradictory information about this.

    My mother has dementia and can't cope with her finances.

    I need to be able to step in and pay her bills, her chiropody fees, her online supermarket shopping and numerous other things. POA would be helpful at the bank.

    However, some people say that it's too late as she is confused and incapable of understanding what she is signing and a solicitor wouldn't let the process go ahead. Others say nonsense; you don't need a solicito, you do it all online and the fee is either nil or negligible as the donor is on benefits.

    Who is right?
Page 1
    • Browntoa
    • By Browntoa 7th Mar 18, 5:08 PM
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    Browntoa
    • #2
    • 7th Mar 18, 5:08 PM
    • #2
    • 7th Mar 18, 5:08 PM
    It's too late as your mother does not have the mental capacity now to sign the documents
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    • Beenie
    • By Beenie 7th Mar 18, 5:25 PM
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    Beenie
    • #3
    • 7th Mar 18, 5:25 PM
    • #3
    • 7th Mar 18, 5:25 PM
    What someone has told me is to 'game the system' and by that is meant wait for a 10 minute interval when she is lucid, and shove the form in fron of her to sign.

    This sounds crackers to me (and why I thought you needed a solicitor to ensure fair play) but people say no, get the forms online and wait for a convenient moment.
    • Savvy_Sue
    • By Savvy_Sue 7th Mar 18, 11:04 PM
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    Savvy_Sue
    • #4
    • 7th Mar 18, 11:04 PM
    • #4
    • 7th Mar 18, 11:04 PM
    Well, it's not quite as simple as waiting for a lucid moment because a) you need a certificate provider to speak to her in that lucid moment and b) don't you need witnesses?

    Does she have lucid moments? Are they at all predictable? For example, FIL is better when he's at home and in his normal rhythm than when he's out, and there may be times of day when he's better than others. I can't be sure about the latter because I'm not part of his normal rhythm.

    If the answer's no, she doesn't really have lucid moments, or they're not at all predictable, then you need to apply to the Court of Protection. This takes longer, is more difficult, and has greater checks in place.

    Another question is who else is around who cares what you do? That may sound a bit cynical: if you're an only child and likely to be the main or only beneficiary of your will, I think you can be a little less careful about what you do and how you do it than if you have 12 siblings who will accuse you of stealing all her money the moment you give the milkman a fiver.

    But if she's likely to need care (residential or at home) for which she might get help from the local authority, and she's not really having lucid moments, I'd get onto the Court of Protection sooner rather than later. You almost certainly want to be her deputy rather than the LEA applying.
    Still knitting!
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    1 Wise Man Knitivity figure + 1 sheep, 2 pairs socks, 2 hats 2 balaclavas for seamen, 1 balaclava for myself ...
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    • Biggles
    • By Biggles 8th Mar 18, 8:54 AM
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    Biggles
    • #5
    • 8th Mar 18, 8:54 AM
    • #5
    • 8th Mar 18, 8:54 AM
    It's not impossible, if her 'lucid moments' are fairly frequent or predictable; the certificate provider has to be there when she agrees she understands what's going on and signs the form, and he will witness it. The process is set out in details in the following link. Witnessing the attorney(s)' signature(s) could be done at a different time.

    But if they aren't frequent, your certificate provider isn't going to want to hang around all day and come back the next day if necessary. And she'll really have to be lucid, needless to say.

    https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/631082/LPA-for-financial-decisions-make-and-register-complete-pack.zip
    • Savvy_Sue
    • By Savvy_Sue 8th Mar 18, 11:04 AM
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    Savvy_Sue
    • #6
    • 8th Mar 18, 11:04 AM
    • #6
    • 8th Mar 18, 11:04 AM
    It's not impossible, if her 'lucid moments' are fairly frequent or predictable; the certificate provider has to be there when she agrees she understands what's going on and signs the form, and he will witness it. The process is set out in details in the following link. Witnessing the attorney(s)' signature(s) could be done at a different time.

    But if they aren't frequent, your certificate provider isn't going to want to hang around all day and come back the next day if necessary. And she'll really have to be lucid, needless to say.

    https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/631082/LPA-for-financial-decisions-make-and-register-complete-pack.zip
    Originally posted by Biggles
    If it helps, I can describe the process as it happened for DH and I.

    Our certificate provider was our church leader, who is also an accountant. He came round to see us and went through a set of questions with each of us separately - it won't be possible for the OP to be in the room with her mum to prompt and coach her. The questions confirmed that we knew we were potentially giving someone else power over our finances, that we understood the implications, that we weren't being coerced into it but that it was of our own free will.

    So IF the OP has a family friend who also happens to be a suitably qualified person to be the certificate provider, it could be easier to find mum in a lucid moment. But I know if this was my FIL, you'd get nothing much out of him beyond "Where's Joan?" if MIL wasn't in the room with him ...

    Also if, as I said, there are 12 siblings waiting to shout foul play, I wouldn't even attempt PofA but go straight to Court of Protection.
    Still knitting!
    Completed: 1 adult cardigan, 3 baby jumpers, 3 shawls, 1 sweat band, 3 pairs baby bootees,
    1 Wise Man Knitivity figure + 1 sheep, 2 pairs socks, 2 hats 2 balaclavas for seamen, 1 balaclava for myself ...
    Current projects: Poppies, mohair cardigan pattern arrived and going strong!
    • Keep pedalling
    • By Keep pedalling 8th Mar 18, 1:47 PM
    • 5,110 Posts
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    Keep pedalling
    • #7
    • 8th Mar 18, 1:47 PM
    • #7
    • 8th Mar 18, 1:47 PM
    What someone has told me is to 'game the system' and by that is meant wait for a 10 minute interval when she is lucid, and shove the form in fron of her to sign.

    This sounds crackers to me (and why I thought you needed a solicitor to ensure fair play) but people say no, get the forms online and wait for a convenient moment.
    Originally posted by Beenie
    It is crackers, it does sound like it is too late and you need to apply for deputyship through the courts, and unfortunately it is somewhat more expensive and takes longer than getting an LPA.

    https://www.gov.uk/become-deputy/apply-deputy
    • lisyloo
    • By lisyloo 8th Mar 18, 2:27 PM
    • 21,877 Posts
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    lisyloo
    • #8
    • 8th Mar 18, 2:27 PM
    • #8
    • 8th Mar 18, 2:27 PM
    Others say nonsense; you don't need a solicito, you do it all online and the fee is either nil or negligible as the donor is on benefits.

    Who is right?
    What is it you want to acheive here?

    Do you simply want to pay the bills and there is NO financial benefit to you and NO chance of anyone accusing you of gaining?
    i.e. you are the only beneficiary.

    If that is the case I would have thought that a 3rd party agreement with the bank that your mother signs would be the best idea.
    We have only and daughter/grandaughter have cards with PINs that they have authority to use.

    Are you likely to be making care decisions?
    Will you ever need to sell a home?
    Is there any possible gain you need to defend against e.g. other beneficiaries or benefits claims?

    Many of us help out our families sometimes without official authority.
    I recently moved a savings account without official authority but I can't be sued for any loss because I have records of what was there before/after and I got them a better rate so the risk of being sued is practically non-existant .

    Whether it's worth the risk depends on what you are doing and what you are likely to need to do in the future.

    If there is a possibility for example that you might need to sell a house in future then I would go for deputyship because there is absoutely NO way you can fudge it with selling a house.

    You do not need POA to do everything.
    Many organisations (including bank) have ways to set up 3rd party access (even DWP).
    • Keep pedalling
    • By Keep pedalling 8th Mar 18, 2:50 PM
    • 5,110 Posts
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    Keep pedalling
    • #9
    • 8th Mar 18, 2:50 PM
    • #9
    • 8th Mar 18, 2:50 PM
    What is it you want to acheive here?

    Do you simply want to pay the bills and there is NO financial benefit to you and NO chance of anyone accusing you of gaining?
    i.e. you are the only beneficiary.

    If that is the case I would have thought that a 3rd party agreement with the bank that your mother signs would be the best idea.
    We have only and daughter/grandaughter have cards with PINs that they have authority to use.

    Are you likely to be making care decisions?
    Will you ever need to sell a home?
    Is there any possible gain you need to defend against e.g. other beneficiaries or benefits claims?

    Many of us help out our families sometimes without official authority.
    I recently moved a savings account without official authority but I can't be sued for any loss because I have records of what was there before/after and I got them a better rate so the risk of being sued is practically non-existant .

    Whether it's worth the risk depends on what you are doing and what you are likely to need to do in the future.

    If there is a possibility for example that you might need to sell a house in future then I would go for deputyship because there is absoutely NO way you can fudge it with selling a house.

    You do not need POA to do everything.
    Many organisations (including bank) have ways to set up 3rd party access (even DWP).
    Originally posted by lisyloo
    I had LPA right through my mothers latter years while dementia took over her mind. Without it my life would have been very difficult. I did not have a a house to deal with, but I had to deal with the LA, the care home, the DWP and her doctors as well as banks.

    You never know when fate may strike, which is why our LPAs have long been in place.
    • Cyclizine
    • By Cyclizine 8th Mar 18, 4:28 PM
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    • 76 Thanks
    Cyclizine
    Can your mother be told information, retain it for a reasonable period and make a decision about it? This is the test for capacity. From what you're saying this isn't the case. I don't think she will be able to grant you POA and you'll have to go down the line of guardianship or whatever is the equivalent in the country you live in.
    • lisyloo
    • By lisyloo 8th Mar 18, 4:44 PM
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    lisyloo
    but I had to deal with the LA, the care home, the DWP and her doctors as well as banks
    We have got on fine without any of that.
    The local authority deal with me fine (they can check everything direct with DWP anyway).
    I have "appointee" status with the DWP.
    Her doctors deal with next of kin.
    We have a 3rd party official arrangement with the bank.
    So most of it can be managed, which is why I said it depends on what the OP wants to acheive. We are also a family who works together towards the same goal and trusts each other which is another factor.

    Unfortunately in our case my MIL would not agree to POA.
    We will probably have to get deputyship for her to sell her house (exception is that it's not needed if she dies first).

    You never know when fate may strike, which is why our LPAs have long been in place.
    Agree with that completely, but unfortunately not everyone will agree.
    I got my own and DHs EPA when they announced they would stop being free.

    We did get POA for my FIL and it was very difficult.
    He is housebound so it was really difficult to get someone to witness his signature.
    We found it really difficult to find people who knew him who weren't family as when you get elderly a lot of your friends have died. The doctors would not agree.
    Last edited by lisyloo; 08-03-2018 at 4:52 PM.
    • Beenie
    • By Beenie 8th Mar 18, 5:17 PM
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    Beenie
    There is no house to sell (rented accommodation), no investments or savings. Mothers income is all state pension, credits, housing benefit and -all being well in a few weeks - Attendance Allowance.

    The GP rings me to discuss mother's meds and state of mind.

    The LA have been dealing with me since early January when carers were appointed.

    DWP have granted me appointeeship for her future benefit payments.

    What I want to achieve is going into the bank and arranging for DDs etc. and a contactless card for her carers to use to buy minor items. I also want to have a say in which care home she is eventually placed ; this is why I have explored POA and being a third party mandate/joint signatory on her account.
    • lisyloo
    • By lisyloo 8th Mar 18, 7:15 PM
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    lisyloo
    Have you asked the bank what the options are?
    I doubt whether giving carers a card is an option (any reason they can!!!8217;t have cash?)

    We dealt with care homes and hospital without a POA.
    It was very difficult to find one that fitted all the criteria - LA budget, close, decent standards, availability and met needs and future needs. There are some dreadful ones out there.
    If the staff put their owns mums in there then that!!!8217;s a good sign.

    I know it!!!8217;s been said before but you can get POA if she isn!!!8217;t in a position to agree. The only option then is deputyship. We are looking at that now but only becuase we will probably have a property to sell and that can!!!8217;t be done any other way.
    • Beenie
    • By Beenie 8th Mar 18, 7:32 PM
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    Beenie
    I have an appointment with the bank next week. Mother will have to be present as account holder, and to agree to me being a joint signatory/third party mandate or whatever it's called.

    However, if mother fails to get up and get dressed properly we won't make it into town, and we will be back to square one.
    • Savvy_Sue
    • By Savvy_Sue 9th Mar 18, 12:23 AM
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    Savvy_Sue
    I'm fairly sure there are cards available where you top up in advance and that's all that can be spent, however there's a monthly charge and probably a topup fee too. And I think you'd have to give one to each carer, which could prove problematic.

    I'd ask the agency what they suggest. I can see that there may be problems with keeping cash in the house for the carers to reimburse themselves for small items, so there's no easy answer ...
    Still knitting!
    Completed: 1 adult cardigan, 3 baby jumpers, 3 shawls, 1 sweat band, 3 pairs baby bootees,
    1 Wise Man Knitivity figure + 1 sheep, 2 pairs socks, 2 hats 2 balaclavas for seamen, 1 balaclava for myself ...
    Current projects: Poppies, mohair cardigan pattern arrived and going strong!
    • Beenie
    • By Beenie 9th Mar 18, 7:39 AM
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    Beenie
    Cash isn't a good solution. If I lived reasonably close to my mother, then it would be easy to top up her cash reserve. However, I am at the opposite end of the country, and travel is expensive (even with a senior rail card there are still taxis and overnight accommodation to take into account). There is no-one else to pop a 20 note in her purse, so my solution was internet shopping on her behalf.
    • Biggles
    • By Biggles 9th Mar 18, 8:32 AM
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    Biggles
    I have an appointment with the bank next week. Mother will have to be present as account holder, and to agree to me being a joint signatory/third party mandate or whatever it's called.
    Originally posted by Beenie
    If she passes that test in front of bank staff, it would mean they consider her (at that time) capable of giving the authority. It follows that it's very likely she'll also pass the mental capacity test for completing a PoA. See how well she manages.
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