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    • Amy198
    • By Amy198 7th Mar 18, 11:41 AM
    • 9Posts
    • 7Thanks
    Amy198
    Equal Pay - Gender Discrimination
    • #1
    • 7th Mar 18, 11:41 AM
    Equal Pay - Gender Discrimination 7th Mar 18 at 11:41 AM
    Hello,

    I am hoping someone might be able to help with this - apologies if is written a bit "factsy" but just wanted to not try and put emotion in it.

    I started my job in 2014 - as a data analyst. Team consisted to 2 other people, both men. I was roughly aware both were paid a bit more than me but put it down to them being in the role longer and thought the difference was smaller. Both had been doing data analysis less time than i had.

    In 2016 i was offered a secondment on another team as a senior analyst to cover maternity leave. They hired someone to cover me whilst on my secondment.

    It is now approaching the end of my secondment and i am arranging return to my old team. They are keeping on the person they hired to cover me as one of the other team members left durong this time.

    I have since found out that the person hired to cover my secondment (male) is paid significantly more tha i was. In my substantive post I was paid 24k a year (28.5k in my secondment post) my replacement 26.5k and the other guy on the team 31k.

    When i started in the role i was coming to it with 4 years worth of data analyst experience, since then i have gained another 3 years in the company with one year of that being at a higher position.

    My replacement had no data analyst experience whatsoever and came into the job from his previous role as a shop assistant.

    I have asked my manager if we could look at reviewing my pay to be more in line with both my experience and the other members of the team.

    He has refused and said there is no budget for any increases. I have approached HR and raised this and gently indicated it as an equal pay issue but without explicity stating so. HR have come back and stated that it is up to managers discretion.

    Im not quite sure what my next steps are to be honest. Should i email HR and state clearly i want to bring an equal pay claim? Is it better to go straight to my union?

    Just for added info, I work for a large public sector organisation and both in my substantive role and secondment i have recieved the highest possible performance reviews. I am only not staying with my secondment team because they are going through a restrucure and I cannot be included as am on a secondment.

    This feels like a clear case of sex discrimination, I am easily (both on paper and in practice) more qualified and experienced for this role but am paid considerably less than both. The replacement for me particularly feels unfair as he had literally no experience coming into the role.

    Thanks for any help you might provide.
Page 3
    • tenchy
    • By tenchy 8th Mar 18, 4:29 PM
    • 360 Posts
    • 113 Thanks
    tenchy
    Good grief - I've fallen through a time warp into 1973!
    Originally posted by Tabbytabitha

    So why are there many more female nurses, teachers, hairdressers and so on? Come on. What's your explanation?
    • stator
    • By stator 8th Mar 18, 4:50 PM
    • 6,301 Posts
    • 4,195 Thanks
    stator
    Interestingly there used to be a lot more females in IT. That was before it became a 'profession'. People who are 45+ years old often worked for a company in a different capacity and then became involved in their IT systems and moved onto jobs like programming. People who are 30-45 are more likely to have studied IT at university and for some reason there weren't many girls choosing these courses (I think only 2 out of 100 on my course) so in this age range in IT there is a big male dominance. I believe in current university courses it's not such a big gap anymore.
    Changing the world, one sarcastic comment at a time.
    • Comms69
    • By Comms69 8th Mar 18, 4:54 PM
    • 2,970 Posts
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    Comms69
    So why are there many more female nurses, teachers, hairdressers and so on? Come on. What's your explanation?
    Originally posted by tenchy
    Might I suggest a different approach.


    Because I suspect the answer you get will be because society forces them to be. Which is ofcourse a non-sense.


    Everyone makes different choices, but there are consequences to those. Society cannot function in such a way as to protect every possible combination of protected characteristic, or otherwise for that matter, from a mythical patriarchy which controls everything we do.


    For most people a trend emerges when children come into play. Childcare is often too expensive and so one parent must forego employment to raise their offspring.


    Yes typically this is the mother - and there is a whole list of reasons why. (trust me lots of men would rather spend time with their child, but instead go to work, often sacrificing opportunities themselves for the safety net that long term employment brings.)


    Once the child reaches school age, the mothers return slowly into the workforce once more. Careers which are open to them often either fit around school hours, or around split care with a partner. Raising a child for 5 years enhances skills which accommodate themselves well into teaching and carer giving (and often many other skills e.g. financial management)


    This may at least in some respect explain why those professions are dominated by women.
    • KittenChops
    • By KittenChops 8th Mar 18, 5:02 PM
    • 106 Posts
    • 65 Thanks
    KittenChops
    So why are there many more female nurses, teachers, hairdressers and so on? Come on. What's your explanation?
    Originally posted by tenchy

    Perhaps if society stopped reinforcing certain stereotypes, there wouldn't be.


    There was a great program on telly a few months ago. One thing they did was to dress toddlers as the opposite sex, and put them amidst a variety of toys, some 'typically' boy things (cars, building blocks etc) and some 'typically' girl things (dolls, tea sets etc). Then someone else was introduced to the scene (a primary school teacher or similar) and without fail, each of them tried to encourage the 'girls' to play with dolls and the 'boys' to play with cars.

    This is what we need to tackle. For example, if girls are steered away from playing with Lego then the likelihood of that girl becoming an engineer diminishes. Conversely, stopping a boy from playing with dolls could prevent him from being a midwife.

    I was lucky as a child in that having both an older brother and sister, I had a choice of what to play with and my parents eventually gave up trying to get me to be interested in that horrid Tiny Tears!
    • Comms69
    • By Comms69 8th Mar 18, 5:08 PM
    • 2,970 Posts
    • 2,939 Thanks
    Comms69
    Perhaps if society stopped reinforcing certain stereotypes, there wouldn't be.


    There was a great program on telly a few months ago. One thing they did was to dress toddlers as the opposite sex, and put them amidst a variety of toys, some 'typically' boy things (cars, building blocks etc) and some 'typically' girl things (dolls, tea sets etc). Then someone else was introduced to the scene (a primary school teacher or similar) and without fail, each of them tried to encourage the 'girls' to play with dolls and the 'boys' to play with cars.

    This is what we need to tackle. For example, if girls are steered away from playing with Lego then the likelihood of that girl becoming an engineer diminishes. Conversely, stopping a boy from playing with dolls could prevent him from being a midwife.

    I was lucky as a child in that having both an older brother and sister, I had a choice of what to play with and my parents eventually gave up trying to get me to be interested in that horrid Tiny Tears!
    Originally posted by KittenChops
    Is this backed up by anything, or just an opinion?
    • steampowered
    • By steampowered 8th Mar 18, 5:11 PM
    • 2,593 Posts
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    steampowered
    I find some of the comments made on this thread a bit depressing to be honest.

    People shouldn't be put into a box based only on their gender. That is just one tiny part of what makes up a person.

    If a boy wants to become a nurse that should be encouraged, as should a girl who wants to work in IT.

    The Op came to us with what - on the face of it - sounds like a situation where there may well be gender discrimination. If the employer has a good reason for paying the men more, then that's fine. But if there is no good reason, it needs to be challenged.
    • FBaby
    • By FBaby 8th Mar 18, 5:23 PM
    • 16,726 Posts
    • 41,341 Thanks
    FBaby
    He has refused and said there is no budget for any increases.
    So could it be that it has nothing to do with being sexist but with circumstances? Ie. the role was expected to demand more responsibility when the first male was hired so the job was deemed worth 31K. Then they realised that the job wasn't as intensive, only worth 24K but they were not prepared to go through the loop of revising the male's salary but decided to try to see if they could recruit a good analyst on 24K. The succeeded with you. They then had to replace you, discussed a strategy and decided to offer a bit more to make up for the fact that it would be harder to recruit someone on a temporary basis. As it is, they could have had him for cheaper, but the budget was agreed, so it didn't matter.

    You are now back and the guy is staying (by the way, what was the pay of the person who's left?), you're back, but unfortunately, the company is not doing as well as last year and there is a freeze on increased above the 1%. Your manager think you are the best of the three, but again, he is not prepared to upset the cartwheel by reducing the pay of the two males to increase yours and at the moment, you haven't made enough waves to get him worried that you might leave, so he is happy to pretend all is fine.

    Now your issue is that he's got you over a barrel with your pregnancy. It might very well that he's predicted might indeed get pregnant soon (age, married just a few years, a few words there and then about becoming a mum one day etc...), so knows that you are unlikely to leave anyway, and there is nothing you can do now if indeed you want to stay for the benefits. Remember, your colleagues won't get 6 months paid maternity leave like you will (or whatever you'll get).

    What you've got to consider too though is that if he agreed to increase your salary to 26K to align with your new colleague, he could potentially then say that he thinks he deserves 31K, and then you could say the same.

    Your salary is not a reflection on your worth but on circumstances. If you were not pregnant, you could try the 'It is time for me to look for a better job' and hope that indeed, they considered you worth enough not to take the chance to lose you, but pregnant, you're going to find it harder to negotiate.
    • Detroit
    • By Detroit 8th Mar 18, 8:06 PM
    • 747 Posts
    • 2,332 Thanks
    Detroit
    Sorry that is only a contention for it seems people with a certain viewpoint.


    If she is the best at the task, why should she not do it?


    Genuinely if anyone in a team I managed refused to do this they would be on the list.


    (I think you'd be foolish to not mention a sought after skill - but that's up to you.)
    Originally posted by Comms69
    The person required to take the minutes typically contributes less to the discussion. There's also something of a message that your value is in noting what others have said rather than your own input if you are the person always selected. If there is no one whose job it is, it should be rotated.

    I can't buy the idea that someone would be constantly selected to take minutes on the grounds they are best at this 'skilled' task. Not wishing to demean the tasks, which does require some skill, but I find it hard to accept that only the OP in a meeting of professionals would be capable of it.

    OP you should consult your union. While it's not possible for anyone here to tell you you have or do not have a discrimination case, I certainly see that there is potential.


    Put your hands up.
    • TBagpuss
    • By TBagpuss 8th Mar 18, 8:06 PM
    • 6,570 Posts
    • 8,537 Thanks
    TBagpuss
    So why are there many more female nurses, teachers, hairdressers and so on? Come on. What's your explanation?
    Originally posted by tenchy
    There are a lot of complex reasons but a lot of them do come down to societal pressures, gender based assumptions and stereotypes etc.

    For instance, boys who enjoy playing with dolls, doing the hair or make up of their doll,s styling their own and their friends hair are likely to be bullied and discouraged. Girls doing the same are very unlikely to have their parents, teachers or other adults in their lives actively try to discourage them. It's hardly surprising that boys are less likely to see hairdressing or beauty therapy as a career choice.

    It's similar with other jobs - and with behaviours generally. Behaviours which in boys and men are characterised in positive ways are often characterised as negative in women. For instance, men may be seen as assertive / go getting / strong - all positive. Women behaving in exactly the same way are often perceived as bossy, aggressive, strident !!!!!y - all negative.

    It's depressing to see who much deeply ingrained sexism there is on this thread.
    • Wyndham
    • By Wyndham 8th Mar 18, 8:23 PM
    • 2,021 Posts
    • 2,323 Thanks
    Wyndham
    There are a lot of complex reasons but a lot of them do come down to societal pressures, gender based assumptions and stereotypes etc.

    For instance, boys who enjoy playing with dolls, doing the hair or make up of their doll,s styling their own and their friends hair are likely to be bullied and discouraged. Girls doing the same are very unlikely to have their parents, teachers or other adults in their lives actively try to discourage them. It's hardly surprising that boys are less likely to see hairdressing or beauty therapy as a career choice.

    It's similar with other jobs - and with behaviours generally. Behaviours which in boys and men are characterised in positive ways are often characterised as negative in women. For instance, men may be seen as assertive / go getting / strong - all positive. Women behaving in exactly the same way are often perceived as bossy, aggressive, strident !!!!!y - all negative.

    It's depressing to see who much deeply ingrained sexism there is on this thread.
    Originally posted by TBagpuss
    If I could double thanks this post, I would. Thank you, it's excellent.
    • steampowered
    • By steampowered 8th Mar 18, 10:26 PM
    • 2,593 Posts
    • 2,541 Thanks
    steampowered
    So could it be that it has nothing to do with being sexist but with circumstances?
    Originally posted by FBaby
    If a 'provision, criterion or practice' applied by an employer results in men and women being treated unequally, that is known as 'indirect discrimination'.

    Indirect discrimination is a breach of the Equality Act 2010, unless the employer can prove that the discrimination is justified. 'Circumstances' is not really an acceptable justification.

    If the employer's budgeting practices results in men and women being paid differently for the same job, it is starting to sound like there is a real risk of being hammered for discrimination.
    • Samsung_Note2
    • By Samsung_Note2 8th Mar 18, 10:35 PM
    • 456 Posts
    • 182 Thanks
    Samsung_Note2
    All three people on the team perform the exact same job- same job description etc.
    Three members of the team are:
    1 - Male - Paid 31.5k - middle level of experience, bad performance reviews, longest time with company.
    2 - Male - Paid 26.5k - zero analyst experience at all, bad performance reviews, shortest time with company - hired to be my replacement while on secondment.
    3 - Female (me) - Paid 24k - most amount of analyst experience, rated as exceptional in performance reviews, medium amount of time with company.
    Originally posted by Amy198

    Or just maybe they simply prefer the other two people and the management just dont rate you as highly as you rate yourself.

    I personally feel i'm the dogs danglies at my job and worth every penny of a six figure salary..sadly my employer thinks im worth NMW...

    Bottom line is if you dont like it open the door walk through it and keep going...really is simple as that.
    If my appalling spelling offends you that much...dont read my posts.
    • Detroit
    • By Detroit 8th Mar 18, 10:48 PM
    • 747 Posts
    • 2,332 Thanks
    Detroit
    Or just maybe they simply prefer the other two people and the management just dont rate you as highly as you rate yourself.

    I personally feel i'm the dogs danglies at my job and worth every penny of a six figure salary..sadly my employer thinks im worth NMW...

    Bottom line is if you dont like it open the door walk through it and keep going...really is simple as that.
    Originally posted by Samsung_Note2
    She could, or she could exercise her right to challenge a potentially illegal practice.

    From the information provided it seems there is enough to demonstrate the employer could be discriminating on gender grounds. If it is not the case, the employer would then have the opportunity (indeed obligation) to prove it.

    Not everyone is in the position to walk out of a job, and unless people are able to challenge poor employment practices, there are those who will be exploited.

    The law exists to prevent this. I see no reason why people should not be advised to at least explore their legal options.


    Put your hands up.
    • Les79
    • By Les79 8th Mar 18, 11:28 PM
    • 262 Posts
    • 327 Thanks
    Les79
    She could, or she could exercise her right to challenge a potentially illegal practice.

    From the information provided it seems there is enough to demonstrate the employer could be discriminating on gender grounds. If it is not the case, the employer would then have the opportunity (indeed obligation) to prove it.

    Not everyone is in the position to walk out of a job, and unless people are able to challenge poor employment practices, there are those who will be exploited.

    The law exists to prevent this. I see no reason why people should not be advised to at least explore their legal options.
    Originally posted by Detroit
    I have to admit that there is *something* to OP's case and I'm not in a position to provide advice on that.

    But in my workplace there is a female who does the same work as me and yet she gets paid more than me. I could certainly make a new thread about possible gender discrimination as well, but the momentum in society is squarely on women being underpaid and I'd have no chance in hell!

    Maybe I should be like OP and question things more, but ultimately I just take the attitude that some people get paid more for me and it comes down to how well you negotiate at interview stage. I've approached my boss about a pay rise and they've brickwalled me, so my only reasonable option is to seek alternative employment or hand in my notice and bluff them a bit.

    This whole "equal pay" stuff feels, to me, like some scales which previously tipped in one direction but now is being tipped in another direction.
    • Samsung_Note2
    • By Samsung_Note2 9th Mar 18, 9:02 AM
    • 456 Posts
    • 182 Thanks
    Samsung_Note2
    She could, or she could exercise her right to challenge a potentially illegal practice.

    From the information provided it seems there is enough to demonstrate the employer could be discriminating on gender grounds. If it is not the case, the employer would then have the opportunity (indeed obligation) to prove it.

    Not everyone is in the position to walk out of a job, and unless people are able to challenge poor employment practices, there are those who will be exploited.

    The law exists to prevent this. I see no reason why people should not be advised to at least explore their legal options.
    Originally posted by Detroit
    Sadly were not all made equal..some of us are simply better at somethings than others regardless of gender.

    Just because a person feels they are good at there job,it doesn't mean the manager above agrees.
    If my appalling spelling offends you that much...dont read my posts.
    • Tabbytabitha
    • By Tabbytabitha 9th Mar 18, 9:56 AM
    • 2,626 Posts
    • 4,340 Thanks
    Tabbytabitha
    So why are there many more female nurses, teachers, hairdressers and so on? Come on. What's your explanation?
    Originally posted by tenchy
    Turn that round, why are there fewer men working as nurses, teachers and hairdressers?
    • Samsung_Note2
    • By Samsung_Note2 9th Mar 18, 2:12 PM
    • 456 Posts
    • 182 Thanks
    Samsung_Note2
    Turn that round, why are there fewer men working as nurses, teachers and hairdressers?
    Originally posted by Tabbytabitha

    Maybe it holds no interest...why is it people now days are so desperate for everyone to be equal in every way.

    Men and women and different and are simply by nature suited to different roles.
    If my appalling spelling offends you that much...dont read my posts.
    • KittenChops
    • By KittenChops 9th Mar 18, 4:41 PM
    • 106 Posts
    • 65 Thanks
    KittenChops
    Is this backed up by anything, or just an opinion?
    Originally posted by Comms69

    Have a google - there are lots of articles online exploring this idea. And of course, it's an opinion - how on earth could you measure it accurately?!

    Here's a couple to get you started:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-25857895

    https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2016/dec/08/gendered-toys-deter-girls-from-career-engineering-technology
    • KittenChops
    • By KittenChops 9th Mar 18, 4:43 PM
    • 106 Posts
    • 65 Thanks
    KittenChops
    Maybe it holds no interest...why is it people now days are so desperate for everyone to be equal in every way.

    Men and women and different and are simply by nature suited to different roles.
    Originally posted by Samsung_Note2


    Erm... do you think we shouldn't be equal?


    (I'm ignoring the second statement - it's been covered!)
    • Comms69
    • By Comms69 9th Mar 18, 4:55 PM
    • 2,970 Posts
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    Comms69
    Have a google - there are lots of articles online exploring this idea. And of course, it's an opinion - how on earth could you measure it accurately?!

    Here's a couple to get you started:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-25857895

    https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2016/dec/08/gendered-toys-deter-girls-from-career-engineering-technology
    Originally posted by KittenChops


    I meant like a psychological study.


    Ok, so I'll note your opinion, but with no backing behind it, I have no idea what weight to give it.


    Two articles, again sharing an opinion of someone else - who hasn't done a study.


    I'm not saying you're right or you're wrong, but to state an opinion as fact is no different to what other posters have done. e.g. some genders are better suited to jobs than others.
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