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    • Amy198
    • By Amy198 7th Mar 18, 11:41 AM
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    Amy198
    Equal Pay - Gender Discrimination
    • #1
    • 7th Mar 18, 11:41 AM
    Equal Pay - Gender Discrimination 7th Mar 18 at 11:41 AM
    Hello,

    I am hoping someone might be able to help with this - apologies if is written a bit "factsy" but just wanted to not try and put emotion in it.

    I started my job in 2014 - as a data analyst. Team consisted to 2 other people, both men. I was roughly aware both were paid a bit more than me but put it down to them being in the role longer and thought the difference was smaller. Both had been doing data analysis less time than i had.

    In 2016 i was offered a secondment on another team as a senior analyst to cover maternity leave. They hired someone to cover me whilst on my secondment.

    It is now approaching the end of my secondment and i am arranging return to my old team. They are keeping on the person they hired to cover me as one of the other team members left durong this time.

    I have since found out that the person hired to cover my secondment (male) is paid significantly more tha i was. In my substantive post I was paid £24k a year (£28.5k in my secondment post) my replacement £26.5k and the other guy on the team £31k.

    When i started in the role i was coming to it with 4 years worth of data analyst experience, since then i have gained another 3 years in the company with one year of that being at a higher position.

    My replacement had no data analyst experience whatsoever and came into the job from his previous role as a shop assistant.

    I have asked my manager if we could look at reviewing my pay to be more in line with both my experience and the other members of the team.

    He has refused and said there is no budget for any increases. I have approached HR and raised this and gently indicated it as an equal pay issue but without explicity stating so. HR have come back and stated that it is up to managers discretion.

    Im not quite sure what my next steps are to be honest. Should i email HR and state clearly i want to bring an equal pay claim? Is it better to go straight to my union?

    Just for added info, I work for a large public sector organisation and both in my substantive role and secondment i have recieved the highest possible performance reviews. I am only not staying with my secondment team because they are going through a restrucure and I cannot be included as am on a secondment.

    This feels like a clear case of sex discrimination, I am easily (both on paper and in practice) more qualified and experienced for this role but am paid considerably less than both. The replacement for me particularly feels unfair as he had literally no experience coming into the role.

    Thanks for any help you might provide.
Page 1
    • Comms69
    • By Comms69 7th Mar 18, 12:34 PM
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    Comms69
    • #2
    • 7th Mar 18, 12:34 PM
    • #2
    • 7th Mar 18, 12:34 PM
    This isn!!!8217;t gender discrimination.

    You are not entitled to be paid the same.

    You are entitled not to be treated less favourable BECAUSE of your gender.

    What’s an equal pay claim??
    Last edited by Comms69; 07-03-2018 at 12:36 PM.
    • anamenottaken
    • By anamenottaken 7th Mar 18, 12:47 PM
    • 4,146 Posts
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    anamenottaken
    • #3
    • 7th Mar 18, 12:47 PM
    • #3
    • 7th Mar 18, 12:47 PM
    This isn!!!8217;t gender discrimination.

    You are not entitled to be paid the same.

    You are entitled not to be treated less favourable BECAUSE of your gender.

    What!!!8217;s an equal pay claim??
    Originally posted by Comms69
    On the face of it it does look like less favourable treatment on the basis of gender.

    But I see you are here to learn about equal pay.

    However, Amy198, are you and your one-time replacement now doing the same job.
    Last edited by anamenottaken; 07-03-2018 at 12:49 PM.
    • steampowered
    • By steampowered 7th Mar 18, 12:50 PM
    • 2,488 Posts
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    steampowered
    • #4
    • 7th Mar 18, 12:50 PM
    • #4
    • 7th Mar 18, 12:50 PM
    It sounds like there could be a gender discrimination issue here. But we don't have enough information to know for sure either way.

    This sounds like an appropriate situation for sending the employer a 'discrimination questionnaire'.

    Essentially, you would send the HR department a very short list of questions stating that you suspect gender discrimination may have occurred and asking for a justification as to why you are being paid less than men in the same role.

    HR should be familiar with the process as until very recently this was a formal statutory procedure under the Equality Act 2010.

    There is detailed guidance from ACAS setting out exactly how to do this here: http://www.acas.org.uk/media/pdf/m/p/Asking-and-responding-to-questions-of-discrimination-in-the-workplace.pdf.

    These questionnaires can be a powerful tool for getting employers to recognise and address potential gender discrimination. Simply sending a questionnaire could help you get a pay increase to bring you up to the men's salaries.

    If the employer refuses to answer your questionnaire or is unable to explain why the men get paid more, you then have a much stronger case for bringing a gender discrimination claim than you do at the moment.

    Obviously, your managers might not be too happy that a questionnaire has been served.
    • Comms69
    • By Comms69 7th Mar 18, 12:53 PM
    • 2,970 Posts
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    Comms69
    • #5
    • 7th Mar 18, 12:53 PM
    • #5
    • 7th Mar 18, 12:53 PM
    On the face of it it does look like less favourable treatment on the basis of gender.

    But I see you are here to learn about equal pay.

    However, Amy198, are you and your one-time replacement now doing the same job.
    Originally posted by anamenottaken
    Or-

    One person has been there longer and earns more
    The other was a temporary contractor and attracted a premium

    Please point out where anyone, except the OP has mentioned gender.
    • Amy198
    • By Amy198 7th Mar 18, 12:55 PM
    • 9 Posts
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    Amy198
    • #6
    • 7th Mar 18, 12:55 PM
    • #6
    • 7th Mar 18, 12:55 PM
    All three people on the team perform the exact same job- same job description etc.
    Three members of the team are:
    1 - Male - Paid £31.5k - middle level of experience, bad performance reviews, longest time with company.
    2 - Male - Paid £26.5k - zero analyst experience at all, bad performance reviews, shortest time with company - hired to be my replacement while on secondment.
    3 - Female (me) - Paid £24k - most amount of analyst experience, rated as exceptional in performance reviews, medium amount of time with company.
    • Amy198
    • By Amy198 7th Mar 18, 12:58 PM
    • 9 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    Amy198
    • #7
    • 7th Mar 18, 12:58 PM
    • #7
    • 7th Mar 18, 12:58 PM
    The one hired as a temporary replacement was interviewed alongside many others - they were not desperate to get someone in ASAP and he was mostly hired as he was dating someone else who worked on the teams daughter and was moving down from Yorkshire to live with her and needed a job and they were doing him a favour.

    Just to point out - they did not need to pay him as much as they did - he didnt ask for £26k - was offered it, he would have accepted £22k - he didnt negotiate for salary

    Also as an aside my manager has on more than one occasion actually stated to me he "didnt realise he wa paying me so little!"
    • Comms69
    • By Comms69 7th Mar 18, 1:01 PM
    • 2,970 Posts
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    Comms69
    • #8
    • 7th Mar 18, 1:01 PM
    • #8
    • 7th Mar 18, 1:01 PM
    All three people on the team perform the exact same job- same job description etc.
    Three members of the team are:
    1 - Male - Paid £31.5k - middle level of experience, bad performance reviews, longest time with company.
    2 - Male - Paid £26.5k - zero analyst experience at all, bad performance reviews, shortest time with company - hired to be my replacement while on secondment.
    3 - Female (me) - Paid £24k - most amount of analyst experience, rated as exceptional in performance reviews, medium amount of time with company.
    Originally posted by Amy198
    YOU are making this a gender issue. What about age? Race? Religion? Just stop for one minute.

    You seem to know ALOT about these people- how? Given you’re in a different team?
    • Comms69
    • By Comms69 7th Mar 18, 1:04 PM
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    Comms69
    • #9
    • 7th Mar 18, 1:04 PM
    • #9
    • 7th Mar 18, 1:04 PM
    OP if you!!!8217;re highly rated and regarded- the money would be found.

    Employers don!!!8217;t typically lose good staff to keep bad.

    If you can earn £31k elsewhere why are you even considering going back?
    • Amy198
    • By Amy198 7th Mar 18, 1:11 PM
    • 9 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    Amy198
    YOU are making this a gender issue. What about age? Race? Religion? Just stop for one minute.

    You seem to know ALOT about these people- how? Given you’re in a different team?
    Originally posted by Comms69

    I worked on the team for 2 years before going onto the secondment - it is my substantive team, I am good friends with my colleagues and we openly discuss pay and performance. My manager on the team is openly quite sexist, often being disparaging about people going on maternity leave and assigning preferential tasks to male employees. When I was on the team I was always asked to do things like minuting meetings, organising team events etc. my male colleagues were never asked to do these.
    • Amy198
    • By Amy198 7th Mar 18, 1:12 PM
    • 9 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    Amy198
    OP if you!!!8217;re highly rated and regarded- the money would be found.

    Employers don!!!8217;t typically lose good staff to keep bad.

    If you can earn £31k elsewhere why are you even considering going back?
    Originally posted by Comms69
    Normally I would be looking to go elsewhere. However I am currently 2 months pregnant so unable to look for alternative employment at the moment.
    • Comms69
    • By Comms69 7th Mar 18, 1:15 PM
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    • 2,938 Thanks
    Comms69
    I worked on the team for 2 years before going onto the secondment - it is my substantive team, I am good friends with my colleagues and we openly discuss pay and performance. My manager on the team is openly quite sexist, often being disparaging about people going on maternity leave and assigning preferential tasks to male employees. When I was on the team I was always asked to do things like minuting meetings, organising team events etc. my male colleagues were never asked to do these.
    Originally posted by Amy198
    You see these things as demeaning?

    Do you think your colleagues might play down their performance or play up their pay?
    • Amy198
    • By Amy198 7th Mar 18, 1:20 PM
    • 9 Posts
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    Amy198
    You see these things as demeaning?

    Do you think your colleagues might play down their performance or play up their pay?
    Originally posted by Comms69
    Yes they are demeaning - my role is as a data analyst - I wouldnt mind doing these things if they were taken in turn etc but I was treated as the team secretary for a lot of activity that was not in my job description.

    No - my colleagues have been very open re their pay, my substantive manager has been upfront about how badly performing the person hired to cover me has been - I have been asked to come back from my seconded role on several occasions to help train him. With the other member of the team (the highest paid one) he is very open about having been on a performance improvement plan as has been struggling with anxiety affecting performance.
    • Comms69
    • By Comms69 7th Mar 18, 2:24 PM
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    • 2,938 Thanks
    Comms69
    Yes they are demeaning - my role is as a data analyst - I wouldnt mind doing these things if they were taken in turn etc but I was treated as the team secretary for a lot of activity that was not in my job description.

    No - my colleagues have been very open re their pay, my substantive manager has been upfront about how badly performing the person hired to cover me has been - I have been asked to come back from my seconded role on several occasions to help train him. With the other member of the team (the highest paid one) he is very open about having been on a performance improvement plan as has been struggling with anxiety affecting performance.
    Originally posted by Amy198
    Lots of people earn more than you and your colleagues to do minutes and organise events. You’re a data analyst not a CFO; kind of need to get over it.

    Out of curiosity how are pat increments worked out- performance? Length of service?
    • Amy198
    • By Amy198 7th Mar 18, 2:33 PM
    • 9 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    Amy198
    Lots of people earn more than you and your colleagues to do minutes and organise events. You’re a data analyst not a CFO; kind of need to get over it.

    Out of curiosity how are pat increments worked out- performance? Length of service?
    Originally posted by Comms69
    Performance reviews are done on an annual basis - meeting all performance standards gets you a 1% increase, thats all that is possible.

    I was more drawing attention to the fact that I was the only one on the team required to do those things - i wouldn't have had a problem doing them if we did it on a rota basis or something but as the only woman on the team I was expected to do them - the other two on the team were not expected to do them.

    The basis of the facts for me is my line manager is openly quite sexist, i was expected to do more menial work than my male colleagues (in addition to other responsibilities) and I am paid over 10% less than my colleagues. To me this seems like I am being paid less for being a woman, there seems to be no reasonable reason why I would be paid less than the others.

    Anyway - aside from all this I've seen the ACAS advice posted above re questions and have put them to our HR team to ask them - if there is a reasonable reason why then fair enough but I cannot seem to find one.
    • tenchy
    • By tenchy 7th Mar 18, 2:45 PM
    • 360 Posts
    • 113 Thanks
    tenchy
    Performance reviews are done on an annual basis - meeting all performance standards gets you a 1% increase, thats all that is possible.

    I was more drawing attention to the fact that I was the only one on the team required to do those things - i wouldn't have had a problem doing them if we did it on a rota basis or something but as the only woman on the team I was expected to do them - the other two on the team were not expected to do them.

    The basis of the facts for me is my line manager is openly quite sexist, i was expected to do more menial work than my male colleagues (in addition to other responsibilities) and I am paid over 10% less than my colleagues. To me this seems like I am being paid less for being a woman, there seems to be no reasonable reason why I would be paid less than the others.

    Anyway - aside from all this I've seen the ACAS advice posted above re questions and have put them to our HR team to ask them - if there is a reasonable reason why then fair enough but I cannot seem to find one.
    Originally posted by Amy198

    Probably because you were preceived as doing it better. Some people are bad minute takers and organsiers. In my 40 years of industrial experience I can say that women tend to be better than men at that sort of thing anyway (men are, of course, better than women - generally speaking - at some other things).
    • Takeaway_Addict
    • By Takeaway_Addict 7th Mar 18, 2:51 PM
    • 5,793 Posts
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    Takeaway_Addict
    All three people on the team perform the exact same job- same job description etc.
    Three members of the team are:
    1 - Male - Paid £31.5k - middle level of experience, bad performance reviews, longest time with company.
    2 - Male - Paid £26.5k - zero analyst experience at all, bad performance reviews, shortest time with company - hired to be my replacement while on secondment.
    3 - Female (me) - Paid £24k - most amount of analyst experience, rated as exceptional in performance reviews, medium amount of time with company.
    Originally posted by Amy198
    It maybe but considering you've just hammered your colleagues I have little sympathy
    Don't trust a forum for advice. Get proper paid advice. Any advice given should always be checked
    • steampowered
    • By steampowered 7th Mar 18, 3:00 PM
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    steampowered
    Lots of people earn more than you and your colleagues to do minutes and organise events. You!!!8217;re a data analyst not a CFO; kind of need to get over it.

    Out of curiosity how are pat increments worked out- performance? Length of service?
    Originally posted by Comms69
    Personally, I disagree with this.

    It is perfectly reasonable to ask the question as to why females doing the same job are paid less than men doing very similar jobs.

    Regarding the comment about being a CFO. From a legal perspective, it is generally much easier to prove discrimination for lower paid roles than for higher paid roles.

    This is because you are able to make comparisons against several people doing very similar jobs. If an Employment Tribunal claim was brought the employer would have to reveal what it pays men and what it pays women, and explain to the Tribunal what non-discriminatory reason it has for paying the men more for doing the same job.

    It is more difficult to bring equal pay claims for very senior roles like the CFO, because there is unlikely to be another person in the organisation doing the same job.
    • Amy198
    • By Amy198 7th Mar 18, 3:08 PM
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    • 7 Thanks
    Amy198
    It maybe but considering you've just hammered your colleagues I have little sympathy
    Originally posted by Takeaway_Addict
    I didn't mean for it to come across like that. I was more trying to demonstrate that its not because I am not performing as well as them.
    • Amy198
    • By Amy198 7th Mar 18, 3:09 PM
    • 9 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    Amy198
    Personally, I disagree with this.

    It is perfectly reasonable to ask the question as to why females doing the same job are paid less than men doing very similar jobs.

    Regarding the comment about being a CFO. From a legal perspective, it is generally much easier to prove discrimination for lower paid roles than for higher paid roles.

    This is because you are able to make comparisons against several people doing very similar jobs. If an Employment Tribunal claim was brought the employer would have to reveal what it pays men and what it pays women, and explain to the Tribunal what non-discriminatory reason it has for paying the men more for doing the same job.

    It is more difficult to bring equal pay claims for very senior roles like the CFO, because there is unlikely to be another person in the organisation doing the same job.
    Originally posted by steampowered

    In this case our roles are all identical, we have the same job title and descriptions and work on the same projects. That's all I am looking for, if there is a non-discriminatory justification for it then that's ok. I just cannot see one!
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