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  • FIRST POST
    • aliceaylmer
    • By aliceaylmer 6th Mar 18, 10:01 AM
    • 15Posts
    • 6Thanks
    aliceaylmer
    Appeal lost and not given Popla code
    • #1
    • 6th Mar 18, 10:01 AM
    Appeal lost and not given Popla code 6th Mar 18 at 10:01 AM
    Hi All,

    Need help please - Basically my ticket was issued back in Aug 17 I appealed and applied for Popla code last year when it all happened. Nothing every happened. Ticket was issued in SE Car Park by Indigo for not displaying a ticket.

    I have recently received a letter in post NTK from Indigo I appealed again using the ONE SIZE FITS ALL template and I have received the below reply

    Good morning,

    Thank you for your recent online submission which we recognise as an internet template, please see attached the outcome of your appeal.

    Please be aware that we have no recourse regarding the driver, under Railway Byelaw 14, the owner of the vehicle will be held liable.

    To answer each of your points in turn:

    1. The Penalty Notice was issued due to a breach of contract but the balance does not relate to cost incurred by this breach.
    2. We are not able to provide this.
    3. These are available to view on the website through which you appealed.

    POPLA are no longer adjudicating in Penalty Notices issued under Railway Byelaw 14 and so we will not be issuing you a POPLA verification code.

    We refer your comments regarding the processing of your data, which we are treating as a formal section 10 Notice (“the Notice”) under the Data Protection Act (“the Act”). Please accept this email as our formal acknowledgement and response to the Notice.

    You have provided no justification for the Notice. The processing of your data is warranted.

    In any event, section 10(1) of the Act does not apply in circumstances where Schedule 2, paragraphs 1 to 4 of the Act are met, accordingly, we are permitted to continue to process your data at this stage.

    If this is not clear, we suggest you seek legal advice.

    Kind regards,

    PLEASE HELP
Page 1
    • twhitehousescat
    • By twhitehousescat 6th Mar 18, 10:05 AM
    • 1,366 Posts
    • 1,837 Thanks
    twhitehousescat
    • #2
    • 6th Mar 18, 10:05 AM
    • #2
    • 6th Mar 18, 10:05 AM
    aug 17?

    millions of posts regarding bylaws and how the right to prosicute ENDS AT 6 MONTHS

    we are now at month 8

    bet indigo n dont tell you that
    Last edited by twhitehousescat; 06-03-2018 at 10:08 AM.
    Time pretending I was asleep whilst under his desk , has given me insight to this sordid world
    • financerulez
    • By financerulez 6th Mar 18, 10:32 AM
    • 103 Posts
    • 187 Thanks
    financerulez
    • #3
    • 6th Mar 18, 10:32 AM
    • #3
    • 6th Mar 18, 10:32 AM
    Ha - let me get this straight - they are moaning about a template appeal?! Their whole company is based on phoney template claims.

    Did Indigo actually send this response or was it one of their minions?

    Your reply is simple. You need only highlight this:

    They have stated the Penalty Notice was issued for a breach of contract. Penalty Notices are normally referred to with reference to criminal law, as penalties are banned in contract law. (Beavis v ParkingEye does not rewrite contract law, only interprets that charges that are high can be non-penal for commercial reasons - penalties are still banned. Note that was a Parking Charge Notice not a Penalty Notice.) Either way, there is no Keeper liability in this alleged breach of contract, as POFA 2012 does not apply on byelaw-governed land. You could suggest they contact the driver, and stop bothering you as Keeper. Similarly their actual recourse of bringing a prosecution for a byelaw breach has now expired as stated above. Explain this to them, tell them to delete your data, and state any further contact will result in you bringing a claim for DPA violation and harassment.

    If you haven't told them who the Driver is, and it sounds like you haven't, you've basically won.
    • financerulez
    • By financerulez 6th Mar 18, 10:44 AM
    • 103 Posts
    • 187 Thanks
    financerulez
    • #4
    • 6th Mar 18, 10:44 AM
    • #4
    • 6th Mar 18, 10:44 AM
    This has actually seriously p*ssed me off. Tone your letter angrily, use the above point, if you want to waste your own time as they can't really do anything, put stuff like this:

    "Please be aware that we have no recourse regarding the driver, under Railway Byelaw 14, the owner of the vehicle will be held liable."

    For an Owner to have any liability under these byelaws, a breach of the byelaws must be proven (and even then it states an Owner 'may' be liable.) Only a Magistrates' Court can enforce a byelaw breach as confirmed by the DfT. Are you a Magistrates' Court?

    "1. The Penalty Notice was issued due to a breach of contract but the balance does not relate to costs incurred by this breach."

    What is the balance for then? (Sounds like they want to try the ParkingEye route - the fact they call their own letter a PENALTY notice is so funny. I really hope they go all the way with this (they won't) and the judge berates them for this.)

    "2. We are not able to provide this."

    Well then in what world would you expect someone to hand over money. You want to claim a breach of contract has happened, without any contract? Please pay me the sum of £1,000,000 for the contract we definately agreed 5 years ago of which I also have no evidence of.
    • aliceaylmer
    • By aliceaylmer 6th Mar 18, 11:10 AM
    • 15 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    aliceaylmer
    • #5
    • 6th Mar 18, 11:10 AM
    • #5
    • 6th Mar 18, 11:10 AM
    Thank you all so much for your help.

    Is someone able to draft a full response for me? Happy to do it but I do not understand all of the terminology and want to get this 100%.

    I am happy to also send the letter which I received along with this email!
    • aliceaylmer
    • By aliceaylmer 6th Mar 18, 11:26 AM
    • 15 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    aliceaylmer
    • #6
    • 6th Mar 18, 11:26 AM
    • #6
    • 6th Mar 18, 11:26 AM
    Hi All,

    Me again, I have drafted the below is it OK to send?


    You stated the Penalty Notice was issued for a breach of contract. Penalty Notices are normally referred to with reference to criminal law, as penalties are banned in contract law. Either way, there is no Keeper liability in this alleged breach of contract, as POFA 2012 does not apply on byelaw-governed land.

    In response to your points;

    "Please be aware that we have no recourse regarding the driver, under Railway Byelaw 14, the owner of the vehicle will be held liable."

    For an Owner to have any liability under these byelaws, a breach of the byelaws must be proven (and even then it states an Owner 'may' be liable.) Only a Magistrates' Court can enforce a byelaw breach as confirmed by the DfT. Are you a Magistrates' Court?

    "1. The Penalty Notice was issued due to a breach of contract but the balance does not relate to costs incurred by this breach."

    What is the balance for then?

    "2. We are not able to provide this."

    You want to claim a breach of contract has happened, without any contract?

    I suggest you contact the driver, and stop harassing me as the Keeper.

    Similarly your actual recourse of bringing a prosecution for a byelaw breach has now expired as this ticket was issued over 6 months ago.
    • Johno100
    • By Johno100 6th Mar 18, 11:30 AM
    • 3,761 Posts
    • 4,423 Thanks
    Johno100
    • #7
    • 6th Mar 18, 11:30 AM
    • #7
    • 6th Mar 18, 11:30 AM
    Please be aware that we have no recourse regarding the driver, under Railway Byelaw 14, the owner of the vehicle will be held liable.
    And where do they think they are going to get that information from?
    • Ralph-y
    • By Ralph-y 6th Mar 18, 11:43 AM
    • 2,654 Posts
    • 3,334 Thanks
    Ralph-y
    • #8
    • 6th Mar 18, 11:43 AM
    • #8
    • 6th Mar 18, 11:43 AM
    you are perhaps over thinking this ........

    there is nothing they can do as the 6 month time out for byelaws has passed ....

    they just want to bamboozle you into paying .....

    to understand this 'cowboy industry ' (Handard)

    please watch the MP's debate

    https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2018-02-02/debates/CC84AF5E-AC6E-4E14-81B1-066E6A892807/Parking(CodeOfPractice)Bill

    some of the comments fount there in ......


    ''Rip-offs from car park Cowboys must stop''; unfair treatment; signage deliberately confusing to ensure a PCN is issued; ''years of abuse by rogue parking companies''; bloodsuckers; ''the current system of regulation is hopeless, like putting Dracula in charge of the blood-bank''; extortionate fines; rogue operators; ''sense of injustice''; unfair charges and notices; wilfully misleading; signage is a deliberate act to deceive or mislead; ''confusing signs are often deliberate, to trap innocent drivers''; unreasonable; a curse; harassing; operating in a disgusting way; appeals service is no guarantee of a fair hearing; loathed; outrageous scam; dodgy practice; outrageous abuse; unscrupulous practices; ''the British Parking Association is as much use as a multi-storey car park in the Gobi desert''; and finally, by way of unanimous conclusion: ''we need to crack down on these rogue companies. They are an absolute disgrace to this country. Ordinary motorists and ordinary residents should not have to put up with this''.

    These are the exact words used, so you should quote them to your MP in a complaint and ask him/her to contact Sir Greg Knight MP if he wants further information about this scam.

    Ralph
    • financerulez
    • By financerulez 6th Mar 18, 12:47 PM
    • 103 Posts
    • 187 Thanks
    financerulez
    • #9
    • 6th Mar 18, 12:47 PM
    • #9
    • 6th Mar 18, 12:47 PM
    Dear Sirs

    As stated previously I am the Registered Keeper of the vehicle. You will need to take this issue up with the driver.

    I have no liability as Keeper as POFA 2012 does not apply.

    The Owner can also have no liability as more than 6 months has expired since the alleged breach occurred, rendering a prosecution impossible.

    Please therefore delete my details and do not contact me further other than to confirm the matter is closed. Further attempts to contact me may result in a claim for breaches of the DPA and harassment.

    Yours faithfully

    X
    • financerulez
    • By financerulez 6th Mar 18, 1:11 PM
    • 103 Posts
    • 187 Thanks
    financerulez
    Also do us a favour in return and if this was Indigo, write/email to DVLA and BPA saying:

    I've received a Notice to Keeper and appeal rejection that is so clearly wrong and anti-consumer that you need to take action against Indigo.

    Indigo have claimed the Owner will be held liable for an alleged breach of a byelaw, despite there being no chance of proving this alleged breach as more than 6 months have passed, and despite them having no information other than knowing I am the Registered Keeper. They are trying to imply I, as Registered Keeper, am somehow liable for an unproven and impossible to prove breach, despite POFA 2012 not applying to byelaw governed land.

    Their rude letter refuses to provide further information on the matter, e.g. they state "we are not able to provide this", when asked for dated photos of the signage they contend forms a contract.

    Once again, they are trying to blur byelaw enforcement with contract law, and claim the Owner will be held liable under byelaw 14 (despite the actual law saying MAY be held liable), yet claim they are pursuing a breach of contract. Even more ridiculously they have sent a PENALTY notice, (despite penalties being banned in contracts - not a charge notice like ParkingEye v Beavis) and state "the balance does not relate to costs incurred by this breach."

    The whole thing is a mess, they're clearly trying to trick me, the Registered Keeper, into paying for something where I have done nothing wrong, and they know I have done nothing wrong.

    You can't continue to allow them to operate like this. Please let me know what action you will take against them?

    Kind regards

    X
    • twhitehousescat
    • By twhitehousescat 6th Mar 18, 1:16 PM
    • 1,366 Posts
    • 1,837 Thanks
    twhitehousescat
    neither the DVLA or the BPA will take action

    DVLA , receive £2.50 every time keepers info is requested

    BPA is a trade organisation funded by members (indigo) whos intention is to protect the livelihood of members
    Time pretending I was asleep whilst under his desk , has given me insight to this sordid world
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 6th Mar 18, 2:55 PM
    • 58,434 Posts
    • 71,936 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    But the complaint should still go to the DVLA and BPA, and the local Trading Standards.

    Seems to me that Indigo/ZZPS are demanding money for a 'byelaws penalty' unlawfully. They can't have it both ways, this is ether:

    (a) a byelaws penalty (no POPLA because they convinced the BPA to let them off, but that restricts recovery/laying before Magistrates Court, to six months ONLY)

    OR

    (b) it was not a penalty at all, a contractual charge, in which case they should have offered POPLA.

    Can't have their cake and eat it.

    This will need careful explaining to TS who will NOT be familiar with this latest 'outrageous scam' (Hansard).

    Send an email to Steve Clark and show him this thread as a link (he does read MSE threads).

    steve.c@britishparking.co.uk

    High time the BPA got their house in order on this matter. ZZPS appear to be laughing at them.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 06-03-2018 at 2:59 PM.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • aliceaylmer
    • By aliceaylmer 6th Mar 18, 2:56 PM
    • 15 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    aliceaylmer
    I had already replied before I saw your response financerulez - thank you so much for doing this.

    See what I replied below and what they have replied...

    You stated the Penalty Notice was issued for a breach of contract. Penalty Notices are normally referred to with reference to criminal law, as penalties are banned in contract law. Either way, there is no Keeper liability in this alleged breach of contract, as POFA 2012 does not apply on byelaw-governed land.

    In response to your points;

    "Please be aware that we have no recourse regarding the driver, under Railway Byelaw 14, the owner of the vehicle will be held liable."

    For an Owner to have any liability under these byelaws, a breach of the byelaws must be proven (and even then it states an Owner 'may' be liable.) Only a Magistrates' Court can enforce a byelaw breach as confirmed by the DfT. Are you a Magistrates' Court?

    "1. The Penalty Notice was issued due to a breach of contract but the balance does not relate to costs incurred by this breach."

    What is the balance for then?

    "2. We are not able to provide this."

    You want to claim a breach of contract has happened, without any contract?


    Most importantly your actual recourse of bringing a prosecution for a byelaw breach has now expired as this ticket was issued over 6 months ago.


    Their response...

    Good afternoon,

    We are in agreement that POFA 2012 bares no relevance to this matter, under Railway Byelaw 14, you will remain the liable party.

    The balance of this Penalty Notice is as stated on the signage on site, there is no requirement for this to relate to cost incurred.

    As we do not operate the site and did not issue this Penalty Notice, we are unable to provide you with photos of the signage on site. You are free to request this from the car park operator or return to the site.

    The details were requested from the DVLA within 6 months of the contravention, therefore, the correct procedure has been followed.

    Kind regards,
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 6th Mar 18, 3:01 PM
    • 2,748 Posts
    • 3,413 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    I would respond back, an suggest they look up the Magistrates act relevant (cant recall the right name) to this, and notice the limitation

    Ask them if they are capable of reading this themselves, or will they continue to make unlawfully misleading claims that they can prosecute a case more than 6 months after the incident date?
    • financerulez
    • By financerulez 6th Mar 18, 6:58 PM
    • 103 Posts
    • 187 Thanks
    financerulez
    No worries.

    This is a new line from them, or at least I haven't seen them attempt to pursue in this way before.

    Who is it who is actually replying to you? (Which company?)
    Don't forget to send what we said to DVLA, BPA, trading standards, etc.
    Could be worth you making a subject access request to the DVLA and ask them the following:
    - Who accessed your vehicle data
    - When they accessed it
    - What method was used (what form?)
    - What reason they provided

    DVLA will respond in around 10 days. Email address can be found on forums/Google, but it's something like subjectaccessrequest @ dvla etc. Provide them with a rough timeframe - so maybe July 17 to Sept 17, and your name, address, licence plate.

    You could reply to the above:

    Thank you for confirming that I have no liability as Registered Keeper. Please therefore explain how you believe I have any liability under Byelaw 14? If you are making the assumption that I was the Driver or am the Owner of this vehicle, please provide evidence for such.

    All this aside, how do you expect to enforce Railway Byelaw 14, a criminal law, only enforceable by a Magistrates' Court, as confirmed by DfT? You have stated an alleged breach of contract, but what part of the contract do you believe has been breached? Please bare in mind that it cannot relate to Byelaw 14 as no breach has occurred, and no breach can be enforced as the limitation period for a Magistrates' Court prosecution has expired. Please see Magistrates' Courts Act 1980 s127(1): "Except as otherwise expressly provided by any enactment and subject to subsection (2) below, a magistrates!!!8217; court shall not try an information or hear a complaint unless the information was laid, or the complaint made, within 6 months from the time when the offence was committed, or the matter of complaint arose."

    I am confused as to how you could view the Registered Keeper liable, and have reported this incident to the DVLA and BPA. The correct procedure most certainly has not been followed, and I will be further raising this with trading standards as your claims are unlawfully misleading. I have contacted DVLA separately to request details of what data was passed to who, and will be considering my legal position with regards to bringing a claim for a data breach and harassment.

    As you have confirmed I have no liability as Registered Keeper, please see my previous email, and contact the driver directly, or should you incorrectly believe you have some recourse against the Owner, please contact the Owner.

    Yours faithfully

    X
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 6th Mar 18, 7:02 PM
    • 58,434 Posts
    • 71,936 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    The details were requested from the DVLA within 6 months of the contravention, therefore, the correct procedure has been followed.
    You couldn't make it up, could you?

    This is an absolute 'scam' from 'bloodsuckers' who 'wilfully mislead' (Hansard 2.2.18).

    Trading Standards, BPA and DVLA complaint - NOW. Explaining the reality, as already posted.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • waamo
    • By waamo 6th Mar 18, 9:01 PM
    • 3,392 Posts
    • 4,508 Thanks
    waamo
    Why keep writing to them? It has timed out. There is nothing they can do other than send letters clearly composed by the village idiot.

    Ignore them.
    This space for hire.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 6th Mar 18, 9:04 PM
    • 58,434 Posts
    • 71,936 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Complaints are needed to stop ZZPS from making this up as they go along. They MUST be stopped.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • waamo
    • By waamo 6th Mar 18, 9:20 PM
    • 3,392 Posts
    • 4,508 Thanks
    waamo
    Complaints are needed to stop ZZPS from making this up as they go along. They MUST be stopped.
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    Paying The Deep. Sir Deep your presence is required in this thread.
    This space for hire.
    • ratechaser
    • By ratechaser 6th Mar 18, 9:29 PM
    • 497 Posts
    • 388 Thanks
    ratechaser
    Paying The Deep. Sir Deep your presence is required in this thread.
    Originally posted by waamo
    We never recommend paying on here
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