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    • castlebar
    • By castlebar 4th Mar 18, 9:14 PM
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    castlebar
    land registry
    • #1
    • 4th Mar 18, 9:14 PM
    land registry 4th Mar 18 at 9:14 PM
    Two brothers owned a parcel of land as joint tenants,the land was unregistered. The land was sold by the two brothers to the one brother and his wife as joint tenants. The transfer took place in 1987,and compulsory registration came into affect in that area in 1986,could anyone tell me if this transfer would have triggered compulsory registration at that time
Page 1
    • AnotherJoe
    • By AnotherJoe 4th Mar 18, 9:44 PM
    • 9,380 Posts
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    AnotherJoe
    • #2
    • 4th Mar 18, 9:44 PM
    • #2
    • 4th Mar 18, 9:44 PM
    Look it up on the land registry website
    • castlebar
    • By castlebar 9th Mar 18, 8:56 PM
    • 11 Posts
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    castlebar
    • #3
    • 9th Mar 18, 8:56 PM
    • #3
    • 9th Mar 18, 8:56 PM
    Thanks,I have looked at Land Registrys site but I cannot tell whether it would or would not have triggered compulsory registration,on the grounds that one brother retained ownership of the land prior too,and after transfere of the land,to the new owners
    • G_M
    • By G_M 11th Mar 18, 12:03 AM
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    G_M
    • #4
    • 11th Mar 18, 12:03 AM
    • #4
    • 11th Mar 18, 12:03 AM
    T....The transfer took place in 1987,and compulsory registration came into affect in that area in 1986,could anyone tell me if this transfer would have triggered compulsory registration at that time
    Originally posted by castlebar
    Clearly yes.

    A transfer of land took place following the implementation of compulsory registration.
    • castlebar
    • By castlebar 11th Mar 18, 7:31 PM
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    castlebar
    • #5
    • 11th Mar 18, 7:31 PM
    • #5
    • 11th Mar 18, 7:31 PM
    Thanks for your reply GM,as the conveyance was not registered at land registry,am I correct in thinking ownership would revert to the previous conveyance.
    • G_M
    • By G_M 11th Mar 18, 7:55 PM
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    G_M
    • #6
    • 11th Mar 18, 7:55 PM
    • #6
    • 11th Mar 18, 7:55 PM
    Ah! Now there youve got me!

    I don't know either

    * what the penalty is (if any) for failing to register, or

    * what the impact is on the transfer

    but my guess is that since the trasfer would have presumaby been basd on a contract, that contract would be eenforcible - ie the 'new' joint owners could claim ownership and should register their ownership.

    Edit:

    Bit of research;

    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2002/9/part/2/chapter/1/crossheading/compulsory-registration

    7 Effect of non-compliance with section 6

    (1)If the requirement of registration is not complied with, the transfer, grant or creation becomes void as regards the transfer, grant or creation of a legal estate.

    (2)On the application of subsection (1) -

    (a)in a case falling within section 4(1)(a) or (b), the title to the legal estate reverts to the transferor who holds it on a bare trust for the transferee,

    [F8(aa)in a case fallling within section 4(1)(aa), the title to the legal estate reverts to the person in whom it was vested immediately before the transfer, ]and

    (b)in a case falling within section 4(1)(c) to (g), the grant or creation has effect as a contract made for valuable consideration to grant or create the legal estate concerned.

    (3)If an order under section 6(5) is made in a case where subsection (1) has already applied, that application of the subsection is to be treated as not having occurred.

    (4)The possibility of reverter under subsection (1) is to be disregarded for the purposes of determining whether a fee simple is a fee simple absolute.
    However I still suspect the contract remains valid and enforcible at a later date. Might be wrong though.....
    Last edited by G_M; 11-03-2018 at 9:16 PM.
    • castlebar
    • By castlebar 11th Mar 18, 8:08 PM
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    castlebar
    • #7
    • 11th Mar 18, 8:08 PM
    • #7
    • 11th Mar 18, 8:08 PM
    GM If the new joint owners did not register the conyeyance with the land registry within the permitted time frame I would suggest the conveyance, would be void,and therefor the previous owner could register the property in their name ?
    • G_M
    • By G_M 11th Mar 18, 9:29 PM
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    G_M
    • #8
    • 11th Mar 18, 9:29 PM
    • #8
    • 11th Mar 18, 9:29 PM
    This is getting into some very specific legal areas. You need to get a proper legal opinion.

    But for what it's worth, my interpretation is:

    * S 4 (1) (a) applies since there was 'consideration' (payment):

    4 When title must be registered

    (1)The requirement of registration applies on the occurrence of any of the following events - ;

    (a)the transfer of a qualifying estate - ;

    (i) for valuable or other consideration, by way of gift or in pursuance of an order of any court
    If so, the failure to register as required by S4 (1) (a) is covered by S7 (2) (a):

    (a) in a case falling within section 4(1)(a) or (b), the title to the legal estate reverts to the transferor who holds it on a bare trust for the transferee,
    So the original owners (transferor) remain the owners of the Title, but they hold it on a bare trust for the transferee ie the 'new' owners (transferee) can claim it (presumably with reference to the original contract and payment?).

    But as I said, if you are one of the tranferees ('new' owners), then seek legal advice.

    (Equally, if you are one of the transferors, then seek legal advice!)

    Question: who is occupying the property and on what basis? eg is the occupant paying rent? Council tax? Maintenance?..........
    Last edited by G_M; 11-03-2018 at 10:38 PM.
    • castlebar
    • By castlebar 11th Mar 18, 9:30 PM
    • 11 Posts
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    castlebar
    • #9
    • 11th Mar 18, 9:30 PM
    • #9
    • 11th Mar 18, 9:30 PM
    Many Thanks for your reply GM,I am most grateful for this information.
    • castlebar
    • By castlebar 11th Mar 18, 10:23 PM
    • 11 Posts
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    castlebar
    The present occupier of the land is the wife (purchaser),of the brother who owned the land prior to and after the above conveyance.Seven years later in 1994 the couple divorced,and by order of a county court judge the husband was ordered to convey all his estate and intrest in the property to his wife and new husband ,for the sum of 5000, which he did.But again this conveyance was never registered with the land registry.Three years before the court order,the husband accepted a Class iii legal charge on the property from his mother which is still registered on the land registrys charge register.In recent planning applications the ownership of the land was claimed(in the certificate of ownership)to belong to the wife and new husband but did not admit to the legal charge being in place. Can I also say I am not one of the above people but was friends with the original owners,and I am concerned that fraud may well have occurred
    • G_M
    • By G_M 11th Mar 18, 10:50 PM
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    G_M
    ... and you're suggesting this tangled web can be untangled by a bunch of amateur misfits (ie me) on the internet!

    The various parties involved, in particular those with ongoing claims on the property, need to get proper legal advice.

    If that leads to evidence or suggestions of fraud, doubtless the solicitors will involve the police or recommend their client(s) to do so.
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