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  • FIRST POST
    • Foxtrotter
    • By Foxtrotter 4th Mar 18, 11:52 AM
    • 8Posts
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    Foxtrotter
    Cut fabric refund?
    • #1
    • 4th Mar 18, 11:52 AM
    Cut fabric refund? 4th Mar 18 at 11:52 AM
    My wife, makes her own dresses as a hobby and often buys fabric online. This week purchased she four metres of fabric, but when it arrived she was disappointed with the quality and asked to return the goods for a refund. The trader refused as they say fabrics cut from a roll are exempt from refund.

    I browsed the Consumer Contracts Regulations and in the section which refers to returning goods, it specifies a few items which are exempt. The relevant one is referred to as

    (b) the supply of goods that are made to the consumers specifications or are clearly personalised.

    We are in dispute as to whether or not fabric cut from a roll would fall into this category. My view is that it doesn't, as there is no other way you can buy fabric other than off the roll, but the trader disagrees.

    Anyone have any views on this?

    As a separate issue, having studies the CCR's it does say that cancellations and refunds only applies to goods over the value of £42. (In this case the goods were only £30) Does this mean that a consumer has no right to return goods under £42?
    Last edited by Foxtrotter; 04-03-2018 at 3:08 PM.
Page 1
    • soolin
    • By soolin 4th Mar 18, 12:16 PM
    • 60,312 Posts
    • 42,970 Thanks
    soolin
    • #2
    • 4th Mar 18, 12:16 PM
    • #2
    • 4th Mar 18, 12:16 PM
    My wife, a dressmaker, often buys fabric online. This week purchased she four metres of fabric, but when it arrived she was disappointed with the quality and asked to return the goods for a refund. The trader refused as they say fabrics cut from a roll are exempt from refund.

    I browsed the Consumer Contracts Regulations and in the section which refers to returning goods, it specifies a few items which are exempt. The relevant one is referred to as

    (b) the supply of goods that are made to the consumers specifications or are clearly personalised.

    We are in dispute as to whether or not fabric cut from a roll would fall into this category. My view is that it doesn't, as there is no other way you can buy fabric other than off the roll, but the trader disagrees.

    Anyone have any views on this?

    As a separate issue, having studies the CCR's it does say that cancellations and refunds only applies to goods over the value of £42. (In this case the goods were only £30) Does this mean that a consumer has no right to return goods under £42?
    Originally posted by Foxtrotter
    The consumer credit rules would not apply as this was a business to business transaction.
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    • ssparks2003
    • By ssparks2003 4th Mar 18, 12:53 PM
    • 350 Posts
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    ssparks2003
    • #3
    • 4th Mar 18, 12:53 PM
    • #3
    • 4th Mar 18, 12:53 PM
    I assume that the answer you received on another forum from a practicing lawyer was not to your liking?
    • pmduk
    • By pmduk 4th Mar 18, 12:58 PM
    • 8,336 Posts
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    pmduk
    • #4
    • 4th Mar 18, 12:58 PM
    • #4
    • 4th Mar 18, 12:58 PM
    The consumer credit rules would not apply as this was a business to business transaction.
    Originally posted by soolin
    Out of interest, why have you assumed this?
    • bris
    • By bris 4th Mar 18, 1:06 PM
    • 7,587 Posts
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    bris
    • #5
    • 4th Mar 18, 1:06 PM
    • #5
    • 4th Mar 18, 1:06 PM
    Out of interest, why have you assumed this?
    Originally posted by pmduk
    Probably because the OP has said his wife's a dressmaker.


    Its made to order so the regulations don't apply. Buy the whole roll of fabric and you can return that, but cut to you size no.


    As already mentioned it's a B2B purchase anyway so thats a double whammy as you don't have consumer rights.
    • Foxtrotter
    • By Foxtrotter 4th Mar 18, 1:31 PM
    • 8 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Foxtrotter
    • #6
    • 4th Mar 18, 1:31 PM
    • #6
    • 4th Mar 18, 1:31 PM
    Sorry I should have made this clear. Its a personal purchase not a business transaction.
    • pmduk
    • By pmduk 4th Mar 18, 1:33 PM
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    pmduk
    • #7
    • 4th Mar 18, 1:33 PM
    • #7
    • 4th Mar 18, 1:33 PM
    Most dressmakers are hobbyists rather than professionals and the OP has now confirmed this.
    • unholyangel
    • By unholyangel 4th Mar 18, 1:34 PM
    • 12,286 Posts
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    unholyangel
    • #8
    • 4th Mar 18, 1:34 PM
    • #8
    • 4th Mar 18, 1:34 PM
    Probably because the OP has said his wife's a dressmaker.


    Its made to order so the regulations don't apply. Buy the whole roll of fabric and you can return that, but cut to you size no.


    As already mentioned it's a B2B purchase anyway so thats a double whammy as you don't have consumer rights.
    Originally posted by bris
    Made to order is different from made to your specifications. Made to the customers specification (or clearly personalised) are exempt from the right to cancel but the rest of the regulations still apply. There are no exemptions at all for goods that are made to order.

    But ccrs do state:
    “consumer” means an individual acting for purposes which are wholly or mainly outside that individual’s trade, business, craft or profession;
    OPs wife was not acting for purposes wholly or mainly outside her trade/business etc so they are not a consumer and will likely be reliant on the T&C's that they agreed to.


    But if she was a consumer, she would have been able to return for a refund assuming they do as most other suppliers and offer the material by the metre with the customer selecting how many metres they want.
    Money doesn't solve poverty.....it creates it.
    • Foxtrotter
    • By Foxtrotter 4th Mar 18, 1:48 PM
    • 8 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Foxtrotter
    • #9
    • 4th Mar 18, 1:48 PM
    • #9
    • 4th Mar 18, 1:48 PM
    My wife, the purchaser is a consumer. Nothing to do with business, trade or profession. Hope that's clarified that. I assume then that purchase was covered by the CCR's

    On receipt of the goods, being disappointed with the quality she emailed and asked to return the goods for a refund, but they refused. In their Terms, it does say that cut fabrics cannot be returned, but i further assume that a traders terms cannot override the law.

    Im still interested in the £42 issue if anyone has any knowledge on this.
    • Foxtrotter
    • By Foxtrotter 4th Mar 18, 1:54 PM
    • 8 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Foxtrotter
    I assume that the answer you received on another forum from a practicing lawyer was not to your liking?
    Originally posted by ssparks2003
    Of the three answers received up to now, only one was from a legal expert who suggested I ask them to take the goods back for a refund, which I have done without success. So yes it was to my liking.
    • LilElvis
    • By LilElvis 4th Mar 18, 2:09 PM
    • 3,551 Posts
    • 9,765 Thanks
    LilElvis
    My wife, the purchaser is a consumer. Nothing to do with business, trade or profession. Hope that's clarified that. I assume then that purchase was covered by the CCR's

    On receipt of the goods, being disappointed with the quality she emailed and asked to return the goods for a refund, but they refused. In their Terms, it does say that cut fabrics cannot be returned, but i further assume that a traders terms cannot override the law.

    Im still interested in the £42 issue if anyone has any knowledge on this.
    Originally posted by Foxtrotter
    Can you answer the point raised by unholyangel. Does the company offer to sell by the metre and the consumer then select the length required, usually by way of a dropdown list? Was it a seller on eBay by any chance?
    • Foxtrotter
    • By Foxtrotter 4th Mar 18, 2:24 PM
    • 8 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Foxtrotter
    Can you answer the point raised by unholyangel. Does the company offer to sell by the metre and the consumer then select the length required, usually by way of a dropdown list? Was it a seller on eBay by any chance?
    Originally posted by LilElvis
    Not an ebay seller. A high St shop with an online department.

    They quote a price per metre (well actually half metre) and then the customer enters a number in a box to select the quantity required. They then cut that length off the roll.
    • neilmcl
    • By neilmcl 4th Mar 18, 2:58 PM
    • 10,949 Posts
    • 7,772 Thanks
    neilmcl
    My wife, the purchaser is a consumer. Nothing to do with business, trade or profession. Hope that's clarified that. I assume then that purchase was covered by the CCR's
    Originally posted by Foxtrotter
    I wouldn't refer to your wife as a dressmaker then as that would imply a profession.

    If she is indeed a consumer who simply makes dresses as a hobby then I would be of the opinion that the CCRs do indeed cover this transaction.
    • Foxtrotter
    • By Foxtrotter 4th Mar 18, 3:09 PM
    • 8 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Foxtrotter
    I have now demoted my from a dressmaker to a person who makes her own dresses as a hobby
    • bris
    • By bris 4th Mar 18, 3:22 PM
    • 7,587 Posts
    • 6,606 Thanks
    bris
    Can you answer the point raised by unholyangel. Does the company offer to sell by the metre and the consumer then select the length required, usually by way of a dropdown list? Was it a seller on eBay by any chance?
    Originally posted by LilElvis
    I have heard before that it wasn't covered but now found this https://uk.practicallaw.thomsonreuters.com/a-022-6666?transitionType=Default&contextData=(sc.Defaul t)&firstPage=true&bhcp=1


    This to me says it's not but could also go either way so it's a bit of a grey area.


    Customers need a specific length so the drop down box just aides in this, it not as if it can be put back on the roll once cut so to me it's not covered.


    A trial case may be needed to resolve this.
    • Foxtrotter
    • By Foxtrotter 4th Mar 18, 3:42 PM
    • 8 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Foxtrotter
    Thanks for that link. Its the sort of info I've been searching for. As you say its is a grey area and I guess that as most consumers would buy relatively low cost short lengths then its unlikely that anyone would take it to court as a test case. Certainly not me!
    • unholyangel
    • By unholyangel 4th Mar 18, 4:16 PM
    • 12,286 Posts
    • 9,617 Thanks
    unholyangel
    I have heard before that it wasn't covered but now found this https://uk.practicallaw.thomsonreuters.com/a-022-6666?transitionType=Default&contextData=(sc.Defaul t)&firstPage=true&bhcp=1


    This to me says it's not but could also go either way so it's a bit of a grey area.


    Customers need a specific length so the drop down box just aides in this, it not as if it can be put back on the roll once cut so to me it's not covered.


    A trial case may be needed to resolve this.
    Originally posted by bris
    I think you need to check your link again - its a question being asked by a random joe bloggs (as OP's do here) - its not advice being given by a legal professional.

    Made to the customers specifications would mean the customer can say "give me 162cm x 284cm in plum chiffon" and that is not how the majority of fabric is sold or priced.
    Money doesn't solve poverty.....it creates it.
    • kazzah
    • By kazzah 4th Mar 18, 7:15 PM
    • 413 Posts
    • 404 Thanks
    kazzah
    I used to work in a department store selling dress fabrics - the "rules" were that you couldn't refund on cut lengths- however if a customer insisted and kicked up a fuss then the General manager would ALWAYS offer a full refund - does this store have a social media presence ? it might be worth posting there that the quality was not what you were led to believe and a refund has not been forthcoming - it's amazing what a bit of negative publicity can sort out.
    • societys child
    • By societys child 4th Mar 18, 8:28 PM
    • 5,197 Posts
    • 5,734 Thanks
    societys child
    I'm just wondering how much time and effort you want to spend on a piece of fabric worth less than £30?

    Although unsuitable for what she had in mind, surely as a seamstress/ dress maker it would it would come in useful for some thing else?

    I know this is MSE, but c'mom . . .

    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 4th Mar 18, 9:11 PM
    • 7,177 Posts
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    KeithP
    I used to work in a department store selling dress fabrics - the "rules" were that you couldn't refund on cut lengths-
    Originally posted by kazzah
    What happened in your shop is not particularly useful to the OP.
    Of course any shop or business is free to offer any goodwill gestures they like.

    When purchasing in store, rather than at a distance, the shop can legitimately refuse a refund on anything, or everything, they sell if they wish - assuming of course the goods conform to contract.

    When buying online things are different.
    There are restrictions, as is being discussed here, but generally returns of unwanted goods is allowed.
    Last edited by KeithP; 04-03-2018 at 9:49 PM.
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