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  • FIRST POST
    • Pensioner1
    • By Pensioner1 3rd Mar 18, 10:01 PM
    • 7Posts
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    Pensioner1
    Retirement Flat - Energy advice
    • #1
    • 3rd Mar 18, 10:01 PM
    Retirement Flat - Energy advice 3rd Mar 18 at 10:01 PM
    We have just purchased a small ( 47 sq mtr) one bedroom 2nd floor , centrally situated retirement flat in town centre. Purpose built block in 1998 - original heating/water system. No gas.
    The flat has two old and ugly yellowing ! original storage heaters , one in bedroom and one in lounge - Creda Slimline combi. The heating I think has been Economy 7 tariff. There is a large super seven hot water / immersion tank in hall cupboard.

    The flat needs total refurb. and we really would like any advice please regarding the best heating /hot water system to use regarding economy, efficiency and aesthetics if possible.
    The bathroom has a shower over the bath ; a number of the other flats have replaced bath with electric shower.

    I assume with the present heating system that the night storage heaters heat the hot water in the tank? We have always had gas ; all electric is completely new to us.

    Possibly usually for a retirement flat, the flat will be unoccupied and empty for frequent weeks of the year . Possibly up to 4 months out of 12 but split over the year. It will be checked whilst we are away.

    The hot water tank in a very useful storage cupboard takes up a lot of room and we would like to get rid of the if its a sensible options.



    The storage heaters are 20 years old - should we replace ? - Dimplex Quantum ??

    Thoughts are to replace the bath and over shower with electric shower - if there is sufficient water pressure ?

    Thoughts are to install Quooker Combi or Grohe Red Instant boiling water tap in kitchen to facilitate all needs - yes very expensive item but again might help get rid of huge hot water tank ?

    This would only leave sink in bathroom with no hot water which we could live with.

    We are only in our early 60s and fit and very active; want to try and avoid an overheated environment. The block is very warm anyway.



    Grateful for any advice please. Thank you
Page 2
    • J B
    • By J B 5th Mar 18, 10:37 PM
    • 2,724 Posts
    • 958 Thanks
    J B
    the flat will be unoccupied and empty for frequent weeks of the year . Possibly up to 4 months out of 12 but split over the year. It will be checked whilst we are away.
    Originally posted by Pensioner1
    The thing with 'Storage heaters' is that they store up heat overnight to heat the flat the next day.
    If you are going to be there irregularly, then that may not be the most economical way of heating.
    BUT - if you plan to be there in 'blocks' of time, that perhaps won't be an issue .... especially if your person to check the flat could pop in the day before you arrive to switch the storage heaters on.

    • CashStrapped
    • By CashStrapped 6th Mar 18, 12:12 AM
    • 1,286 Posts
    • 720 Thanks
    CashStrapped
    Yes, I agree with that JB.

    It is the only caveat I put with storage heaters.

    In fact if you see the second line of my first post (post 2) I say with regard to storage heaters:

    "Unless your lifestyle means you use the property infrequently [I meant during the day] this is the cheapest way to heat it."
    • Anthorn
    • By Anthorn 6th Mar 18, 7:26 AM
    • 3,578 Posts
    • 924 Thanks
    Anthorn
    i used to have an electric shower and i now have combi powered shower and the flow rate is much better with the combi - there is a delay of about a minute to get water hot enough to shower under but there is no way i would want to go back to an electric shower!
    Originally posted by boliston
    I'm the opposite to that. I love my electric shower and I also love my energy consumption being lower than the level of the (Ofgem)low user. That's different to you. Well, of course it is: I'm not you and I don't live in your property and probably I don't live in the same area as you.

    The underlying message in my first post in this thread is to consult the experts, get a personal home survey and then if you trust what they say go ahead. We may of course do what the self-appointed experts in this forum say and that's our own decision. But we must recognise that the self-appointed experts don't know you, they don't know your property and most likely they don't even know where you live.

    Look for example at the self-appointed expert's view of the water survey I had done (read back). That was performed by Anglian Water for crying out loud. But of course rather incredibly the self-appointed experts who don't know me or my property disagreed with that survey.

    To sum up call in the professionals. Your energy supplier and your water company might offer surveys or you can go to an independent company. If going independent first try your local council: They most likely won't be recommending tradesmen but they might have lists of local tradesmen who are members of their respective trade organisations. Make sure however that you get a guarantee for the work recommended and done. I went a stage further than that and also got a boiler maintenance contract. They will come back every year and service my boiler and check for safety.

    Lastly qualified tradesmen have an interest in serving you and therefore are likely to provide good service. If they don't they will likely lose their reputation and could appear on Cowboy Builders. Self-appointed experts on a forum don't have those constraints and if what they recommend doesn't work they have no comebacks!
    Last edited by Anthorn; 06-03-2018 at 7:30 AM. Reason: Quote added
    • zeupater
    • By zeupater 6th Mar 18, 1:47 PM
    • 4,136 Posts
    • 5,355 Thanks
    zeupater
    I'm the opposite to that. I love my electric shower and I also love my energy consumption being lower than the level of the (Ofgem)low user. That's different to you. Well, of course it is: I'm not you and I don't live in your property and probably I don't live in the same area as you.

    The underlying message in my first post in this thread is to consult the experts, get a personal home survey and then if you trust what they say go ahead. We may of course do what the self-appointed experts in this forum say and that's our own decision. But we must recognise that the self-appointed experts don't know you, they don't know your property and most likely they don't even know where you live.

    Look for example at the self-appointed expert's view of the water survey I had done (read back). That was performed by Anglian Water for crying out loud. But of course rather incredibly the self-appointed experts who don't know me or my property disagreed with that survey.

    To sum up call in the professionals. Your energy supplier and your water company might offer surveys or you can go to an independent company. If going independent first try your local council: They most likely won't be recommending tradesmen but they might have lists of local tradesmen who are members of their respective trade organisations. Make sure however that you get a guarantee for the work recommended and done. I went a stage further than that and also got a boiler maintenance contract. They will come back every year and service my boiler and check for safety.

    Lastly qualified tradesmen have an interest in serving you and therefore are likely to provide good service. If they don't they will likely lose their reputation and could appear on Cowboy Builders. Self-appointed experts on a forum don't have those constraints and if what they recommend doesn't work they have no comebacks!
    Originally posted by Anthorn
    Hi

    I must say that's a little strong ... If you want to spend your money to have an electric shower fitted to save a little money on water use and are content to spend somewhere around 16x that saving on a more expensive energy source to heat the water then it's up to you ... you're now aware that it's costing more, you may not have been before - above that all you need to do is sit back & think through the logic then grab a piece of paper & a calculator! ... I stand by the logic & the conclusion ...

    Regarding Anglian Water or any other water supplier ... Of course, if you contact a water supplier and ask their advice on saving water they may say fit an electric shower, because (for reasons given) it may use less water, however, if the question is related to saving money in a situation where DHW is already provided by a gas combi-boiler the answer should (if they're honest) be completely different ... it depends on the question!

    As for 'experts' providing EPCs ... I think that a little research into the professional expertise requirements for EPC assessors actually is and how RdSAP is used as a simplified assessment tool .... we had an EPC done a few years ago & the assessor made fundamental errors which shouldn't have been made, missed points which had been noted down, measured loft insulation incorrectly, couldn't account for 'non-standard' (no tick box) insulation & refused to check for anything which couldn't immediately be seen (eg underfloor insulation) ....

    Resulting from our EPC assessment being incorrect our property shows as being at the top end of the B bracket with estimated typical energy usage & costs which are well over double what we pay (backed by decades of detailed monthly records!) and recommends that we spend a typical 4k-6k on floor insulation to save 111/year, even though the assessor was aware that we have floor insulation already!! ... we also have almost double the depth of loft insulation that the RdSAP model accepts within it's best tick-box ....

    On the environmental impact front, the assessor needed to follow how the model is used, therefore it 'assumes' that our GCH acts as our primary heat-source and our log-burner is therefore secondary. although it provided the majority of our annual heating at the time .... so onto the occupancy assessment, effectively it told us that we used far less energy than average household of our size (500 vs 1200), even though we do use far less than even that ... If we followed their recommendations our annual savings would be almost -100 (yes cost more!) and if we applied for 'Green Deal' finance etc we'd still be worse off by around 50/year .... oddly, even though we already used biomass in a log-burner to provide the majority of our heating, the report went on to suggest that we used Green Deal finance to install a wood logs boiler in order to access RHI payments of around 2k/year for 7 years! .. you just couldn't make it up, the experts were effectively attempting to support the selling of something that wasn't warranted, needed or even appropriate as either an energy efficiency or money-saving measure, and which would make no difference on environmental grounds .... yet, the 'expert' and the system being used did this .... you just wonder how & why!? ... but note that the government, EST etc seem to hint that commission may come into play when assessors are involved, eg ...
    .... ensuring that assessors outline any commission they receive or ties they have to Green Deal Providers
    'EST Green Deal & ECO FAQ'

    Anyway, enough rambling about my experience, all I've tried to do is ensure that everyone is aware that when dealing with an organisation which is product or sales oriented, the answer you get will depend on the question you ask, assessors & 'experts' may not have a background or level of experience which is quite what people would naturally expect, and that logic should always be applied as a tool to question what others would like us to believe ...

    HTH
    Z
    Last edited by zeupater; 06-03-2018 at 2:23 PM. Reason: +is
    "We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
    • Anthorn
    • By Anthorn 6th Mar 18, 2:20 PM
    • 3,578 Posts
    • 924 Thanks
    Anthorn
    Anyway, enough rambling about my experience, all I've tried to do is ensure that everyone is aware that when dealing with an organisation which is product or sales oriented, the answer you get will depend on the question you ask, assessors & 'experts' may not have a background or level of experience which is quite what people would naturally expect, and that logic should always be applied as a tool to question what others would like us to believe ...
    Z
    Originally posted by zeupater
    This is laughable: You are posting in a thread about a retirement flat and you clearly do not have any knowledge at all of the special needs of older people particularly with regard to hot water. Either that or you ignore those special needs. Your advice is to ignore the advice of those who have experience and training in providing that advice and instead accept the advice of a self-appointed forum expert whose background is dubious. Well, you know, most people have the freedom of choice.

    My advice still stands: Consult the professionals!
    • zeupater
    • By zeupater 6th Mar 18, 3:40 PM
    • 4,136 Posts
    • 5,355 Thanks
    zeupater
    This is laughable: You are posting in a thread about a retirement flat and you clearly do not have any knowledge at all of the special needs of older people particularly with regard to hot water. Either that or you ignore those special needs. Your advice is to ignore the advice of those who have experience and training in providing that advice and instead accept the advice of a self-appointed forum expert whose background is dubious. Well, you know, most people have the freedom of choice.

    My advice still stands: Consult the professionals!
    Originally posted by Anthorn
    Hi

    Logic doesn't care where you live ... water is water, energy is energy, money is money ...

    Science bit ...
    Water - Has a mass of 1kg/litre ... that's 1 tonne/cubic meter
    Energy - It takes 1.16kWh to raise 1 tonne of water 1C.

    Temperature (say) ...
    Water mains - 10C
    Shower - 45C

    Cost (say) ...
    Water - Approx 3/cubic meter
    Electricity - Approx 17p/kWh
    Gas - Approx 4p/kWh

    So ...
    Raising 1 tonne of water from mains temperature to shower temperature consumes 40.6kWh((45-10)*1.16) of energy ...
    Heating with gas (90% efficient) - (40.6x4)/.9 = 1.80
    Heating with electricity (100% efficient) - 40.6x17 = 6.90

    Therefore relative costs ...
    1 tonne of cold water = 3
    1tonne of 45C water heated with gas = 4.80
    1tonne of 45C water heated with electricity = 9.90


    So ...
    10% saving of water (100Litres) = 30p (3x0.1)
    Cost addition (basis 900Litres) = 4.59((9.90-4.80)*0.9)

    To save 30p on water is costing you 4.59 ... if the water company supplied the water you use for showers for free if heated by electricity, your showers would still be costing you more than if they charged for the water and you were heating it by gas! ....

    Feel free to challenge the figures used using whatever you pay for water, gas & electricity ... substitute your own boiler efficiency, ground water temperature & whatever temperature you shower at, but the logic is substantially sound, as is the conclusion ... you've paid for an electric shower to be installed on the basis of saving water (whether on cost or environmental grounds) and because of that the cost of having a shower has increased, as has the overall environmental impact (on current UK electricity generation source mix) ...

    All I ask is that you run the figures!

    HTH
    Z
    "We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
    • boliston
    • By boliston 6th Mar 18, 11:12 PM
    • 2,610 Posts
    • 2,160 Thanks
    boliston
    .....
    Cost (say) ...
    Water - Approx 3/cubic meter
    Electricity - Approx 17p/kWh.....
    Originally posted by zeupater
    Who charges 17p per unit for electricity? - I would have thought between 9p and 11p per unit would be more normal, depending on the zone you are in (midlands cheapest, highlands most expensive)
    • WillowCat
    • By WillowCat 7th Mar 18, 11:35 PM
    • 797 Posts
    • 966 Thanks
    WillowCat
    Who charges 17p per unit for electricity? - I would have thought between 9p and 11p per unit would be more normal, depending on the zone you are in (midlands cheapest, highlands most expensive)
    Originally posted by boliston
    Need to know what suppliers are that low! I'm in the south west, currently paying just over 17p per unit (but the standing charge is only 14p per day).

    Have been thinking of switching to another supplier at 14.5p per unit, with 26p per day standing charge. On a low usage that's not a lot of difference.
    • CashStrapped
    • By CashStrapped 7th Mar 18, 11:40 PM
    • 1,286 Posts
    • 720 Thanks
    CashStrapped
    What is your annual use in kwh?

    Bosh that into a comparison site, and the cheapest tariff for your use will present itself regardless of how it is structured.

    As long as your kwh figures are accurate and within an expected range of your annual use, a compassion site will do all the comparing for you.

    While it is useful to know how a tariff is structured, it can often be a red herring to get too caught up with it.
    • Anthorn
    • By Anthorn 8th Mar 18, 8:58 AM
    • 3,578 Posts
    • 924 Thanks
    Anthorn
    Hi

    Logic doesn't care where you live ... water is water, energy is energy, money is money ...

    Science bit ...
    Water - Has a mass of 1kg/litre ... that's 1 tonne/cubic meter
    Energy - It takes 1.16kWh to raise 1 tonne of water 1C.

    Temperature (say) ...
    Water mains - 10C
    Shower - 45C

    Cost (say) ...
    Water - Approx 3/cubic meter
    Electricity - Approx 17p/kWh
    Gas - Approx 4p/kWh

    So ...
    Raising 1 tonne of water from mains temperature to shower temperature consumes 40.6kWh((45-10)*1.16) of energy ...
    Heating with gas (90% efficient) - (40.6x4)/.9 = 1.80
    Heating with electricity (100% efficient) - 40.6x17 = 6.90

    Therefore relative costs ...
    1 tonne of cold water = 3
    1tonne of 45C water heated with gas = 4.80
    1tonne of 45C water heated with electricity = 9.90


    So ...
    10% saving of water (100Litres) = 30p (3x0.1)
    Cost addition (basis 900Litres) = 4.59((9.90-4.80)*0.9)

    To save 30p on water is costing you 4.59 ... if the water company supplied the water you use for showers for free if heated by electricity, your showers would still be costing you more than if they charged for the water and you were heating it by gas! ....

    Feel free to challenge the figures used using whatever you pay for water, gas & electricity ... substitute your own boiler efficiency, ground water temperature & whatever temperature you shower at, but the logic is substantially sound, as is the conclusion ... you've paid for an electric shower to be installed on the basis of saving water (whether on cost or environmental grounds) and because of that the cost of having a shower has increased, as has the overall environmental impact (on current UK electricity generation source mix) ...

    All I ask is that you run the figures!

    HTH
    Z
    Originally posted by zeupater
    Still laughable and even more so this time.

    It's not about statistics and figures. It's about the special needs of older people as I've said previously.

    Older people as they get older sometimes lose the feeling in their extremities namely fingers and toes, and that can extend further perhaps to their feet and hands or even further to their forearms and lower leg. Now what does that tell you about just one the special needs of older people and their ability to test the temperature of water? It's one thing to burn one's hands in a kitchen sink but quite another to burn one's whole body in a shower. In the latter case the older person is likely to suffer shock and die!

    Getting to the real world, that of my hot water system and my electric shower, it's very easy for me to adjust the temperature of my Vaillant combi boiler. But the temperature of my shower is limited and in order to change that I have to open it up. Basically the temperature of my shower doesn't increase beyond the temperature of the No. 6 setting.

    Now I would say stop with your unqualified and uninformed advice before you kill someone!

    Lastly, anyone who buys a retirement flat is looking towards it being their home for the rest of their life. So the fixtures and fittings have to be mindful of the fact that they could suffer with their health and mobility as they get older unless they are able to replace those fixtures and fittings at regular intervals.
    • Anthorn
    • By Anthorn 8th Mar 18, 9:35 AM
    • 3,578 Posts
    • 924 Thanks
    Anthorn
    Need to know what suppliers are that low! I'm in the south west, currently paying just over 17p per unit (but the standing charge is only 14p per day).

    Have been thinking of switching to another supplier at 14.5p per unit, with 26p per day standing charge. On a low usage that's not a lot of difference.
    Originally posted by WillowCat
    This is a topic related to retirement so I am replying on that basis, i.e. related to older people.

    Depends if you need Warm Home Discount or not: If not try an online quote at Outfox The Market. If you need WHD try an online quote with Scottish Power.

    My current Scottish Power Super Saver December 2018 Eastern region tariff for electricity is 13.054p/kWh and a standing change of 19.18p/day. That tariff is not available now but their currently available tariffs are comparable in overall cost. According to MSE Cheap Energy Club Outfox The Market would be 89/year cheaper than SP and I will probably switch to that in late November 2018 unless the situation changes.

    So overall the above suggestions are well within your parameters depending on your region. There are other suppliers too of course.
    Last edited by Anthorn; 08-03-2018 at 9:38 AM.
    • zeupater
    • By zeupater 8th Mar 18, 2:58 PM
    • 4,136 Posts
    • 5,355 Thanks
    zeupater
    Still laughable and even more so this time.

    It's not about statistics and figures. It's about the special needs of older people as I've said previously.

    Older people as they get older sometimes lose the feeling in their extremities namely fingers and toes, and that can extend further perhaps to their feet and hands or even further to their forearms and lower leg. Now what does that tell you about just one the special needs of older people and their ability to test the temperature of water? It's one thing to burn one's hands in a kitchen sink but quite another to burn one's whole body in a shower. In the latter case the older person is likely to suffer shock and die!

    Getting to the real world, that of my hot water system and my electric shower, it's very easy for me to adjust the temperature of my Vaillant combi boiler. But the temperature of my shower is limited and in order to change that I have to open it up. Basically the temperature of my shower doesn't increase beyond the temperature of the No. 6 setting.

    Now I would say stop with your unqualified and uninformed advice before you kill someone!

    Lastly, anyone who buys a retirement flat is looking towards it being their home for the rest of their life. So the fixtures and fittings have to be mindful of the fact that they could suffer with their health and mobility as they get older unless they are able to replace those fixtures and fittings at regular intervals.
    Originally posted by Anthorn
    Hi

    I take it that you are aware that thermostatic shower valves are available? ... Further to that you're also aware that shower valves are available with preset mix water temperatures ... ours was setto 42C as delivered and to change the fixed temperature (or allow a range to be manually adjusted), the front of the valve needs to be disassembled, mechanical adjustments made and then locked in to avoid accidental adjustment, then the valve reassembled ....

    This is the real world, those thermostatic showers exist - we have two!! ... above that, as already mentioned, we have the ability to prevent hot water scalding at all sinks through mixing stored DHW with cold to a preset maximum temperature as it leaves our cylinder ....

    As mentioned earlier, you have said that you have taken the decision on advice of an energy assessor and a water company, both presumably from an efficiency basis. Your defensive position now is related to health & safety issues for the elderly at large ... so let's have a look at that ...

    1. HSE - Information Sheet 6 .. <link>
    TMVs should be located as close as possible to the outlet, where they are necessary. In healthcare settings, Type 3 is the standard required by the Department of Health!!!8217;s Health Technical Memorandum 04-01 The control of legionella, hygiene, !!!8216;safe!!!8217; hot water, cold water and drinking water systems Type 3 TMVs should be installed when TMVs are replaced or where there are new installations. Further information on TMVs can be obtained from the Thermostatic Mixing Valve Association (TMVA) or at www.beama.org.uk

    TMVs should ensure only safe water temperatures are available. Healthcare standard controls (eg Type 3 TMV or healthcare standard electric showers) and regular safety testing should ensure that the equipment remains safe at all times
    Okay, HSE reference beama, so what do they say ...

    2. beama -Recommended Code of Practice for Safe Water Temperatures .. <link>
    - NHS Estates Model Engineering Specification D08. This is for single outlet applications and is accepted as best possible practice for thermostatic mixing valve performance. There is a third party approval scheme to this standard and such valves are designated TMV3. These are Type 3 valves as defined in the NHS Estates Guidance document. The Water Regulations Advisory Scheme (formerly Water Byelaws Scheme) lists all approved TMV3 valves in the Water Fittings and Materials Directory.

    - BS 1415 Pt 2 1986 (Replaced by BS EN 1111 and BS EN 1287). This is for single outlet applications. Such valves are designated as Type 2 valves in the NHS Estates Guidance document and are deemed suitable for low risk applications. Manufacturers self certify valves as complying with this standard.
    So, TMV2 valves are self assessed & TMV3 valve approvals are listed by WRAS ... <link>

    And on of the manufacturers of TMVs at random (Pegler) ... <link>
    Note the product selection criteria on page 12 and the various TMV options (showers, taps, TMVs etc)


    So that just about leaves sources .... so, examples at random ...
    Examples from one that's on TV a lot!
    And one that's probably nearby!
    Even a well known brand selling both electric care showers & TMV3!


    As can be seen, there's plenty of evidence that recommendations made on health & safety or care standard grounds could be made for both electric showers or thermostatic mixer showers, the HSE confirm it, the NHS confirm it, beama confirm it, manufacturers confirm it, and retail confirm it too .... so the choice is absolutely nothing to do with product availability, product standards or safety.

    Considering the above, we're back to the original position, one of relative cost ... sorry to say this but it is 'about statistics and figures' ... moving your shower water heating from gas to electricity in order to save around 30p on water consumption is costing you around 4.59 more when the relative cost of energy is considered ... it doesn't matter how many times you shower or how long each one takes, it's the simple ratio that counts.

    The EST published a report a while back covering water usage and efficiency <link> which covers standard & low flow shower heads etc which assesses the average (non-pumped) shower user consumes around 60litres of water each time.

    HTH
    Z
    Last edited by zeupater; 08-03-2018 at 3:25 PM. Reason: Removed 8226!!!; formatting
    "We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
    • zeupater
    • By zeupater 8th Mar 18, 3:14 PM
    • 4,136 Posts
    • 5,355 Thanks
    zeupater
    Who charges 17p per unit for electricity? - I would have thought between 9p and 11p per unit would be more normal, depending on the zone you are in (midlands cheapest, highlands most expensive)
    Originally posted by boliston
    Hi

    We're also low users & pay around 17p/unit for electricity on a zero standing charge tariff ....

    Latest Ofgem information suggests far more than 9-11p ... <link> ... but that doesn't really matter as the differential is so huge ... anyone can substitute whatever figures they pay into the calculation made and it wouldn't make electricity cheaper ... even go as far as time the use of the shower, measure pipe length & flow rate wouldn't reverse the basic premise of the conclusion .... in this case either the wrong question was asked, or the wrong answer was given!

    HTH
    Z
    Last edited by zeupater; 08-03-2018 at 3:18 PM.
    "We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
    • Anthorn
    • By Anthorn 8th Mar 18, 5:37 PM
    • 3,578 Posts
    • 924 Thanks
    Anthorn
    Hi

    I take it that you are aware that thermostatic shower valves are available? ... Further to that you're also aware that shower valves are available with preset mix water temperatures ... ours was setto 42C as delivered and to change the fixed temperature (or allow a range to be manually adjusted), the front of the valve needs to be disassembled, mechanical adjustments made and then locked in to avoid accidental adjustment, then the valve reassembled ....

    This is the real world, those thermostatic showers exist - we have two!! ... above that, as already mentioned, we have the ability to prevent hot water scalding at all sinks through mixing stored DHW with cold to a preset maximum temperature as it leaves our cylinder ....

    As mentioned earlier, you have said that you have taken the decision on advice of an energy assessor and a water company, both presumably from an efficiency basis. Your defensive position now is related to health & safety issues for the elderly at large ... so let's have a look at that ...

    1. HSE - Information Sheet 6 .. <link>
    Okay, HSE reference beama, so what do they say ...

    2. beama -Recommended Code of Practice for Safe Water Temperatures .. <link>
    So, TMV2 valves are self assessed & TMV3 valve approvals are listed by WRAS ... <link>

    And on of the manufacturers of TMVs at random (Pegler) ... <link>
    Note the product selection criteria on page 12 and the various TMV options (showers, taps, TMVs etc)


    So that just about leaves sources .... so, examples at random ...
    Examples from one that's on TV a lot!
    And one that's probably nearby!
    Even a well known brand selling both electric care showers & TMV3!


    As can be seen, there's plenty of evidence that recommendations made on health & safety or care standard grounds could be made for both electric showers or thermostatic mixer showers, the HSE confirm it, the NHS confirm it, beama confirm it, manufacturers confirm it, and retail confirm it too .... so the choice is absolutely nothing to do with product availability, product standards or safety.

    Considering the above, we're back to the original position, one of relative cost ... sorry to say this but it is 'about statistics and figures' ... moving your shower water heating from gas to electricity in order to save around 30p on water consumption is costing you around 4.59 more when the relative cost of energy is considered ... it doesn't matter how many times you shower or how long each one takes, it's the simple ratio that counts.

    The EST published a report a while back covering water usage and efficiency <link> which covers standard & low flow shower heads etc which assesses the average (non-pumped) shower user consumes around 60litres of water each time.

    HTH
    Z
    Originally posted by zeupater
    Actually you didn't mention the special needs of older people until I mentioned it. But what I said flew over your head. The safety aspect for older people is that the thermostat cannot be changed by the user and it has to be foolproof.

    This is in fact what the Health and Safety Executive says about the need for safety assessments:
    A risk assessment of the premises should be carried out to identify what controls are necessary and how the systems will be managed and maintained.
    http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/hsis6.pdf

    Yet you and other poster challenged the assessments I had done by qualified professionals stating that their motives in their recommendations were suspect. Incredible!

    I think, really in all truthfulness you don't have a clue about the special needs of older people. Really, before you set yourself up as an expert you need to learn about the subject and get qualified.

    There are many other requirements of the safety of older people but I'm not going to post them for you to unreasonably refute them. I think I've proved my point anyway and in any case if you are qualified you would already know them.

    I also think it odd that you should gamble with the health and welfare of older people in order to score points!

    To everyone: Don't trust a self-appointed forum expert. Get advice from qualified professionals!

    My last in this thread.
    Last edited by Anthorn; 08-03-2018 at 6:25 PM. Reason: quote and link added
    • WillowCat
    • By WillowCat 8th Mar 18, 6:27 PM
    • 797 Posts
    • 966 Thanks
    WillowCat
    This is a topic related to retirement so I am replying on that basis, i.e. related to older people.

    Depends if you need Warm Home Discount or not: If not try an online quote at Outfox The Market. If you need WHD try an online quote with Scottish Power.

    My current Scottish Power Super Saver December 2018 Eastern region tariff for electricity is 13.054p/kWh and a standing change of 19.18p/day. That tariff is not available now but their currently available tariffs are comparable in overall cost. According to MSE Cheap Energy Club Outfox The Market would be 89/year cheaper than SP and I will probably switch to that in late November 2018 unless the situation changes.

    So overall the above suggestions are well within your parameters depending on your region. There are other suppliers too of course.
    Originally posted by Anthorn
    I didn't realise what an expensive area I lived in for electricity.

    I have looked at Scottish Power, and the cheapest tariff they do (1 year fixed) is 17.158/kWh with the standing charge you mention above of 19.18/day.
    • Anthorn
    • By Anthorn 8th Mar 18, 7:03 PM
    • 3,578 Posts
    • 924 Thanks
    Anthorn
    I didn't realise what an expensive area I lived in for electricity.

    I have looked at Scottish Power, and the cheapest tariff they do (1 year fixed) is 17.158/kWh with the standing charge you mention above of 19.18/day.
    Originally posted by WillowCat
    The next cheaper SP tariff in Eastern for me is Online fixed price energy April 2019 16.732p/kWh and 8.222p/day 30 exit fee and costs 22 p.a. more than I'm paying now. Stats from MSE CEC.

    If SP prices keep increasing I'll be going Outfox in late November. Long time to go yet though.
    • CashStrapped
    • By CashStrapped 8th Mar 18, 7:26 PM
    • 1,286 Posts
    • 720 Thanks
    CashStrapped
    Look, my response was very simple, I challenged your initial post based on a few of your points.

    In your first post (post 9) you made the following statements.

    1) That the new shower head increased pressure without increasing the supply of water.

    This is incorrect, all the shower head did was restrict the flow, saving water, but giving the impression it increased pressure (similar to putting your thumb on the end of a hose or a fine rose on a watering can) .

    You can get a similar type of shower head for any shower. Pumped power shower, combi, system boiler etc and it would do the same thing. It is not something exclusive to electric showers.

    --

    I also asked why you had a combi and an electric shower. If you have a combi it would be cheaper to run the shower from this in the long term. It was just a query. If you are happy with it, that is great.

    I did highlight the cost of ripping out the electric shower at this point might negate any short/medium term savings, so was probably not worth it.

    --

    2) It was then in post 15 you mentioned the safety aspects of the electric shower.

    Again, with a thermostatic valve, it makes a shower run off a combi just as safe.

    I have personal experience in this regard. My elderly disabled father has a wet room with a shower fed off a combi. The thermostatic valve ensures the water can never get too hot. There is actually a good range of thermostatic valves/taps designed for the elderly and disabled.

    -----

    3) You mentioned that an electric shower uses less water than a combi. But this is only because an electric shower is more restricted by how fast it can heat the water. This is because they are far less powerful than combi boilers. This is why electric showers usually have a lot less flow during winter. The cold water is so much colder, an electric shower will take longer to heat it, therefore the flow is affected.

    A combi may supply a higher flow than an electric shower, but over the course of the length of a shower, the difference in water use will be minimal, especially with water saving devices added (such as the shower head). So a combi can be just as water efficient.

    The cost difference in the price of energy would mean that a modern combi supplying the shower should cost less to run in the long term.

    So, while I can see your point of view. I felt that the information you gave about the shower head and the safety of a combi was incorrect enough (or not detailed enough) to challenge or give an alternative option. This based on my knowledge and direct experience.

    -----
    If you actually look at my responses to the OP, I actually informed him/her that it would probably be more cost effective for them to keep the electric shower for their specific circumstance.

    I think my posts have been very reasonable responses.
    Last edited by CashStrapped; 08-03-2018 at 7:56 PM.
    • zeupater
    • By zeupater 8th Mar 18, 8:13 PM
    • 4,136 Posts
    • 5,355 Thanks
    zeupater
    Actually you didn't mention the special needs of older people until I mentioned it. But what I said flew over your head. The safety aspect for older people is that the thermostat cannot be changed by the user and it has to be foolproof.

    This is in fact what the Health and Safety Executive says about the need for safety assessments:

    http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/hsis6.pdf

    Yet you and other poster challenged the assessments I had done by qualified professionals stating that their motives in their recommendations were suspect. Incredible!

    I think, really in all truthfulness you don't have a clue about the special needs of older people. Really, before you set yourself up as an expert you need to learn about the subject and get qualified.

    There are many other requirements of the safety of older people but I'm not going to post them for you to unreasonably refute them. I think I've proved my point anyway and in any case if you are qualified you would already know them.

    I also think it odd that you should gamble with the health and welfare of older people in order to score points!

    To everyone: Don't trust a self-appointed forum expert. Get advice from qualified professionals!

    My last in this thread.
    Originally posted by Anthorn
    Hi

    But the issue is that you posted this ....
    ....
    For me the home energy survey was useful because I had expert advice on what to install with qualified contractors to do the work and the free water survey by my local water company was even better. The water survey also recommended an electric shower and sort of underlined the findings of the home energy survey,

    I especially recommend the free water survey if your local water company provides one. They came back to my home after the electric shower was fitted and for free fitted a new shower head which increased the pressure without increasing the supply of water to the shower and also fitted for free a bucket thingy (no brand name on it) in the cistern which cut down on the amount of water in the cistern. They say they will also do an annual water survey also for free.
    ...
    Originally posted by Anthorn
    ... which makes no financial sense at all as heating the water with electricity is far more expensive than gas and that flow restriction shower heads can be installed on standard showers too ....

    Later, you confirmed that you had the ...
    ...
    Water survey to check that I was economical as possible in using water and paying for it ....
    Originally posted by Anthorn
    ... which is fine from a water saving position, but that's the point, the water company did not take the cost of energy into account when they "recommended an electric shower", just the reduction in water usage.

    My original comment on this simply pointed out that ...
    .. I don't really follow that post re the water advice ...
    Originally posted by zeupater
    ... simply because it didn't make sense on financial grounds ...


    The move to argue on welfare or safety grounds was raised here ...
    You are not considering that the electric shower is using less water and therefore less energy to heat it than getting hot water from the combi boiler. Also you are not considering the safety of constant temperature water from the electric shower in preference to possibly fluctuating temperature water from the combi boiler. Remember this is a retirement flat intended to be occupied by older people and that's a major consideration.

    Alternatively we could trust your opinion as someone who has not surveyed the property while distrusting experienced and professional tradesmen who have surveyed the property. I prefer to trust the professionals. Oh yes I still recommend the water survey because that reduced the cost of water.
    Originally posted by Anthorn
    Note that the opening paragraph "You are not considering that the electric shower is using less water and therefore less energy to heat it than getting hot water from the combi boiler" ... is incorrect in that it had been considered in the post you were replying to as ".. if you could use 10% less water with the electric shower .." and that the appropriate reduction in energy consumption had been accounted for. However, at this point you fail to recognise that the issue isn't water consumption, it's displacing one form of energy provision (gas) with a considerably more expensive one (electricity).

    This was the first mention of safety, however this has been queried by myself & others ... after further argument I've even provided details, including the link to 'HSE - Information Sheet 6' which is the very guidance document you've just referenced and linked to as
    as 'hsis6.pdf' ... I take it that you did read the sections regarding 'Healthcare standard controls (eg Type 3 TMV or healthcare standard electric showers)' as they were highlighted ... as well as all of the other information which supports the position that installing an electric shower was unnecessary as standard showers with tight temperature tolerances are available.

    As for the continued abusive remarks, are they really necessary? Many of us have had experience with elderly relatives or are of advanced years ourselves, yet relatively few resort to employing abuse when their advice is challenged by logic ... please review the thread carefully and reconsider the positions you have maintained, you may be surprised to find that specialist alternatives to specialist electric showers exist and that the cost savings on water purchases may even be considerably less than the additional cost of displacing gas with electricity ...

    HTH
    Z
    Last edited by zeupater; 08-03-2018 at 8:20 PM.
    "We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
    • zeupater
    • By zeupater 11th Mar 18, 1:58 PM
    • 4,136 Posts
    • 5,355 Thanks
    zeupater
    We have just purchased a small ( 47 sq mtr) one bedroom 2nd floor , centrally situated retirement flat in town centre. Purpose built block in 1998 - original heating/water system. No gas.
    The flat has two old and ugly yellowing ! original storage heaters , one in bedroom and one in lounge - Creda Slimline combi. The heating I think has been Economy 7 tariff. There is a large super seven hot water / immersion tank in hall cupboard.

    The flat needs total refurb. and we really would like any advice please regarding the best heating /hot water system to use regarding economy, efficiency and aesthetics if possible.
    The bathroom has a shower over the bath ; a number of the other flats have replaced bath with electric shower.

    I assume with the present heating system that the night storage heaters heat the hot water in the tank? We have always had gas ; all electric is completely new to us.

    Possibly usually for a retirement flat, the flat will be unoccupied and empty for frequent weeks of the year . Possibly up to 4 months out of 12 but split over the year. It will be checked whilst we are away.

    The hot water tank in a very useful storage cupboard takes up a lot of room and we would like to get rid of the if its a sensible options.



    The storage heaters are 20 years old - should we replace ? - Dimplex Quantum ??

    Thoughts are to replace the bath and over shower with electric shower - if there is sufficient water pressure ?

    Thoughts are to install Quooker Combi or Grohe Red Instant boiling water tap in kitchen to facilitate all needs - yes very expensive item but again might help get rid of huge hot water tank ?

    This would only leave sink in bathroom with no hot water which we could live with.

    We are only in our early 60s and fit and very active; want to try and avoid an overheated environment. The block is very warm anyway.



    Grateful for any advice please. Thank you
    Originally posted by Pensioner1
    Hi Pensioner1

    Just an idea ..... Have a look at this thread over on the G&E board ... <http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=4715287> it may be of interest as an additional heat source in an all electric flat ....

    HTH
    Z
    "We are what we repeatedly do, excellence then is not an act, but a habit. " ...... Aristotle
    • Pensioner1
    • By Pensioner1 11th Mar 18, 4:17 PM
    • 7 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Pensioner1
    First of all thank you everyone for your responses, very much appreciated. I will try and clarify a little our situation which may possibly explain my possible preferred choices regarding hot water supply to this flat.

    I will be consulting a qualified professional/s but like to improve my own knowledge first and I have found these forums very helpful in the past.

    Yes its a second floor retirement flat ; however thank goodness we are both extremely fit and active ( marathon runners) and will be away from the flat weeks at a time. That said I do want to try and future proof the flat but we are used to living in very modern/contemporary - little use of heating ( windows open) and not much need for hot water in the kitchen. Very minimalist in design.

    Gas is not an option - so no boilers / combis etc .

    Not eligible for any grants etc; we dont pay for water as included in service charge.

    We dont want the current bath; need shower with instant hot water that will be available 24/7 - hence choice of electric.

    Huge vented super 7 immersion tank 20 years old takes a lot of space - really want to get rid of this ??

    Flat is in SW London
    Standard rate with SSE is 14.8p standing charge and 16.56p per unit.

    Economy 7 - 1 year is 8.60 night; 18.75 day and 16.45 standing charge

    The problem is I cant ever see us using the economy 7. There are only 2 storage heaters in the flat. I in the bedroom that I think we may want to take out as we are used to sleeping in unheated bedroom with window open. The other storage heater is in the lounge.

    Hence my thoughts of undersink water heaters ( or through flow / Zip ?) to provide hot water to kitchen and possibly basin in bathroom.

    Any more advice on the above would be great thanks .
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