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    • bluetoffee1878
    • By bluetoffee1878 3rd Mar 18, 10:16 AM
    • 278Posts
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    bluetoffee1878
    UKCPS "Without a valid P&D Ticket" IAS appeal won!
    • #1
    • 3rd Mar 18, 10:16 AM
    UKCPS "Without a valid P&D Ticket" IAS appeal won! 3rd Mar 18 at 10:16 AM
    I don't start too many new threads, as I have been here a while and been quite successful with various appeals, POPLA and county court, but I'm not sure if I'm missing something here.

    Situation is: this is for a friend of a colleague who has a leased vehicle

    Driver parked in a UKCPS P&D car park, bought a ticket and displayed said ticket as per T&C

    Lease company receive NTK within 3 days of the parking 'incident'. Transgression was "without a valid P&D ticket (or pre pay arrangement)". They then transfer liability to colleagues friend who then receives a Notice to Hirer. (same doc different title)

    The Hirer/Keeper sends a bit of a wishy washy appeal to UKCPS (before being aware of the help available from this forum).

    Usual rejection of appeal, but UKCPS have included a timestamped photo of the P&D ticket in the windscreen showing that there was approx 1.5 hours left before expiry from the time stamp on the photo.

    I am not keen on an IAS appeal, as I have done one before with the help of Couponmad which should have been a slam dunk win but they came up with some perverse decision to reject.

    So basically UKCPS have provided evidence in their own rejection of the keepers appeal that they should not have issued the PCN.

    Any thoughts?? IAS appeal maybe

    Thanks for reading
    Bluetoffee
    Last edited by bluetoffee1878; 22-03-2018 at 6:52 PM.
Page 1
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 3rd Mar 18, 10:39 AM
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    Umkomaas
    • #2
    • 3rd Mar 18, 10:39 AM
    • #2
    • 3rd Mar 18, 10:39 AM
    As the NtK was issued within 3 days this looks like an ANPR camera capture linked with the correct input of the VRM. If there was any minor (or major) slip-up in the input of the digits - bang, NtK.

    Did the Notice to Hirer come with a copy of the hire agreement, as per PoFA Schedule 4, Paras 13 and 14?

    Obviously your contact needs to hang on to the original P&D ticket.

    Is your contact also copping for a tasty admin charge for dealing with the NtK by the lease company - he/she needs to watch for that too.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • bluetoffee1878
    • By bluetoffee1878 3rd Mar 18, 11:02 AM
    • 278 Posts
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    bluetoffee1878
    • #3
    • 3rd Mar 18, 11:02 AM
    • #3
    • 3rd Mar 18, 11:02 AM
    As the NtK was issued within 3 days this looks like an ANPR camera capture linked with the correct input of the VRM. If there was any minor (or major) slip-up in the input of the digits - bang, NtK.
    Originally posted by Umkomaas
    That was my initial thought but It wasn't ANPR, just a bloke with a camera phone. Pics taken approx half an hour after the car was parked and with 1.5 hours left before expiry.

    Did the Notice to Hirer come with a copy of the hire agreement, as per PoFA Schedule 4, Paras 13 and 14?
    Originally posted by Umkomaas
    I haven't seen it but Ill check

    Obviously your contact needs to hang on to the original P&D ticket.
    Originally posted by Umkomaas
    Absolutely - plus the pic UKCPS sent him showing the ticket displayed in the vehicle

    Is your contact also copping for a tasty admin charge for dealing with the NtK by the lease company - he/she needs to watch for that too.
    Originally posted by Umkomaas
    Yep I told him to check for that - he says that they don't issue admin charges, they just notify the hirer/keeper and the PPC.
    Last edited by bluetoffee1878; 03-03-2018 at 11:33 AM. Reason: Fixed quotes
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 3rd Mar 18, 12:13 PM
    • 36,801 Posts
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    Fruitcake
    • #4
    • 3rd Mar 18, 12:13 PM
    • #4
    • 3rd Mar 18, 12:13 PM
    In this case I might be tempted to go for an IAS appeal, centring on the fact that the PPC have proved the PCN should never have been issued.

    The vehicle hirer should also complain to the DVLA with the PPC's own evidence stating that there was no valid reason to obtain keeper details, and thus a breach of the DPA has occurred.

    Obviously a complaint to the hirer's MP should also be done.

    These are some of the comments made by the MPs in Parliament concerning the unregulated parking industry (Feb 2018):

    https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2018-02-02/debates/CC84AF5E-AC6E-4E14-81B1-066E6A892807/Parking(CodeOfPractice)Bill

    ''Rip-offs from car park Cowboys must stop''; unfair treatment; signage deliberately confusing to ensure a PCN is issued; ''years of abuse by rogue parking companies''; bloodsuckers; ''the current system of regulation is hopeless, like putting Dracula in charge of the blood-bank''; extortionate fines; rogue operators; ''sense of injustice''; unfair charges and notices; wilfully misleading; signage is a deliberate act to deceive or mislead; ''confusing signs are often deliberate, to trap innocent drivers''; unreasonable; a curse; harassing; operating in a disgusting way; appeals service is no guarantee of a fair hearing; loathed; outrageous scam; dodgy practice; outrageous abuse; unscrupulous practices; ''the British Parking Association is as much use as a multi-storey car park in the Gobi desert''; and finally, by way of unanimous conclusion: ''we need to crack down on these rogue companies. They are an absolute disgrace to this country. Ordinary motorists and ordinary residents should not have to put up with this''.

    These are the exact words used, so the hirer should quote them to their MP in a complaint and ask him/her to contact Sir Greg Knight MP if he/she wants further information about this scam.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
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    • bluetoffee1878
    • By bluetoffee1878 3rd Mar 18, 12:22 PM
    • 278 Posts
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    bluetoffee1878
    • #5
    • 3rd Mar 18, 12:22 PM
    • #5
    • 3rd Mar 18, 12:22 PM
    In this case I might be tempted to go for an IAS appeal, centring on the fact that the PPC have proved the PCN should never have been issued.
    Originally posted by Fruitcake
    Thanks Fruitcake - yes that was my initial thought on this one, just wanted some of the regulars opinions hence the thread.

    The vehicle hirer should also complain to the DVLA with the PPC's own evidence stating that there was no valid reason to obtain keeper details, and thus a breach of the DPA has occurred.
    Originally posted by Fruitcake
    Have advised the person to do this, and also the landowner

    Obviously a complaint to the hirer's MP should also be done.
    Originally posted by Fruitcake
    That's been done.

    These are some of the comments made by the MPs in Parliament concerning the unregulated parking industry (Feb 2018):

    https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2018-02-02/debates/CC84AF5E-AC6E-4E14-81B1-066E6A892807/Parking(CodeOfPractice)Bill

    ''Rip-offs from car park Cowboys must stop''; unfair treatment; signage deliberately confusing to ensure a PCN is issued; ''years of abuse by rogue parking companies''; bloodsuckers; ''the current system of regulation is hopeless, like putting Dracula in charge of the blood-bank''; extortionate fines; rogue operators; ''sense of injustice''; unfair charges and notices; wilfully misleading; signage is a deliberate act to deceive or mislead; ''confusing signs are often deliberate, to trap innocent drivers''; unreasonable; a curse; harassing; operating in a disgusting way; appeals service is no guarantee of a fair hearing; loathed; outrageous scam; dodgy practice; outrageous abuse; unscrupulous practices; ''the British Parking Association is as much use as a multi-storey car park in the Gobi desert''; and finally, by way of unanimous conclusion: ''we need to crack down on these rogue companies. They are an absolute disgrace to this country. Ordinary motorists and ordinary residents should not have to put up with this''.

    These are the exact words used, so the hirer should quote them to their MP in a complaint and ask him/her to contact Sir Greg Knight MP if he/she wants further information about this scam.
    Originally posted by Fruitcake
    Yes I watched this with interest last month, and pointed my MP in Sir Greg's direction.
    • fisherjim
    • By fisherjim 3rd Mar 18, 1:15 PM
    • 2,997 Posts
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    fisherjim
    • #6
    • 3rd Mar 18, 1:15 PM
    • #6
    • 3rd Mar 18, 1:15 PM
    This is a bit strange are you sure this isn't a car park bordering on another car park where two machines are close by but for different companies?

    There are a couple on Milton Keynes like this.
    • bluetoffee1878
    • By bluetoffee1878 3rd Mar 18, 4:56 PM
    • 278 Posts
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    bluetoffee1878
    • #7
    • 3rd Mar 18, 4:56 PM
    • #7
    • 3rd Mar 18, 4:56 PM
    This is a bit strange are you sure this isn't a car park bordering on another car park where two machines are close by but for different companies?

    There are a couple on Milton Keynes like this.
    Originally posted by fisherjim
    Good point I hadn’t considered that
    The p&d ticket which I’ve seen the photo of doesn’t seem to have any identifying marks pertaining to which PPC
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 3rd Mar 18, 4:57 PM
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    The Deep
    • #8
    • 3rd Mar 18, 4:57 PM
    • #8
    • 3rd Mar 18, 4:57 PM
    This is an entirely unregulated industry which is scamming the public with inflated claims for minor breaches of contracts for alleged parking offences.

    Parking Eye, Smart and a smaller company have already been named and shamed, as has Gladstones Solicitors, and BW Legal, (who take hundreds of these cases to court, and nearly always lose), who have also been reported to the regulatory authority.

    The problem has become so rampant that MPs have agreed to enact a Bill to regulate these scammers. Watch the video of the Second Reading in the HofC recently.

    http://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/2f0384f2-eba5-4fff-ab07-cf24b6a22918?in=12:49:41

    and complain in the most robust terms to your MP. With a fair wind most of these companies may well be put out of business by Christmas.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 4th Mar 18, 1:08 AM
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    Coupon-mad
    • #9
    • 4th Mar 18, 1:08 AM
    • #9
    • 4th Mar 18, 1:08 AM
    I vote for IAS appeal in this unusual case, too, unless the driver bought a Council ticket or something daft! Have they still got that ticket, for you to look at?
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • bluetoffee1878
    • By bluetoffee1878 4th Mar 18, 1:25 PM
    • 278 Posts
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    bluetoffee1878
    I vote for IAS appeal in this unusual case, too, unless the driver bought a Council ticket or something daft! Have they still got that ticket, for you to look at?
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    Hi CM!
    Yes that was my initial thought to go for an IAS appeal.

    I!!!8217;m not familiar with the car park in question, but I!!!8217;m going to try and check it out this week. I would think that council p&d tickets would have some Liverpool city council logo or other distinguishing mark.

    The driver unfortunately does not have the ticket, but UKCPS in their rejection of his appeal sent him a pretty good close up pic of the ticket displayed showing approx 1.5 hours left before expiry.

    Also the !!!8216;offence!!!8217; on the NTK was for not displaying a valid p&d ticket which he obviously did, and UKCPS have provided him the proof of that lol.
    Last edited by bluetoffee1878; 04-03-2018 at 1:29 PM. Reason: Added info
    • Guys Dad
    • By Guys Dad 4th Mar 18, 1:59 PM
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    Guys Dad
    Does the close up of the ticket not indicate which car park? But this is a definite appeal to IAS, not mentioning any other adjacent car parks.

    A single point, factual appeal is best and let's see how IAS squirm here!
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 4th Mar 18, 6:54 PM
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    Umkomaas
    A single point, factual appeal is best and let's see how IAS squirm here!
    They tend to avoid squirmaggedon via a quick phone call to the PPC, asking them to withdraw, thus avoiding any embarrassment on the IPC side of things.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • bluetoffee1878
    • By bluetoffee1878 5th Mar 18, 12:32 PM
    • 278 Posts
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    bluetoffee1878
    OK all - thanks for the advice, an IAS single point appeal it is. Just waiting on the perpetrator to send me all the relevant NTK etc etc

    By the way, to those who mentioned, I've checked the site on street view and this is the only p&d car park in the vicinity, so I am pretty sure that the ticket bought must be for this site, plus the price paid stacks up with the price this car park charges for all day parking
    Last edited by bluetoffee1878; 05-03-2018 at 1:26 PM. Reason: typo
    • bluetoffee1878
    • By bluetoffee1878 22nd Mar 18, 10:51 AM
    • 278 Posts
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    bluetoffee1878
    IAS Appeal WON!!!
    Well would you believe it, as discussed in the thread a single point appeal was sent to the IAS by me on behalf of the keeper.

    Included a nice picture of the pay and display ticket that UKCPS had kindly sent with the initial appeal rejection. Good job they did because the keeper had discarded the original

    Checked the IAS website this morning and the operator has conceded "due to mitigation" cheeky sods.

    Anyway a win is a win, now a score draw between bluetoffee and the IAS

    If anybody is interested in the appeal I'll post it up redacted.

    Thanks to all who read and opined on the thread
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 22nd Mar 18, 11:07 AM
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    nosferatu1001
    "mitigation" = we were told to cancel but dont want to say it was for a substantive reason.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 22nd Mar 18, 11:15 AM
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    Umkomaas
    Typical cop out when an IPC operator is bang to rights and can't escape a potential IAS decision going against them. Quick call to them from the IAS with a word in their shell-like to suggest they quietly withdraw.

    The IPC doesn't like to see any of its operators being found against by their (wholly independent) appeals service!

    Well done nonetheless bluetoffee1878
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 22nd Mar 18, 11:24 AM
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    The Deep
    What about a data breach
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • bluetoffee1878
    • By bluetoffee1878 22nd Mar 18, 6:49 PM
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    bluetoffee1878
    What about a data breach
    Originally posted by The Deep
    Was thinking that, but from my understanding the PPC got the lease company details from DVLA. Lease company then provided hirer/keeper details to PPC

    Not sure whether that could be pursued
    • bluetoffee1878
    • By bluetoffee1878 22nd Mar 18, 8:15 PM
    • 278 Posts
    • 501 Thanks
    bluetoffee1878
    Typical cop out when an IPC operator is bang to rights and can't escape a potential IAS decision going against them. Quick call to them from the IAS with a word in their shell-like to suggest they quietly withdraw.

    The IPC doesn't like to see any of its operators being found against by their (wholly independent) appeals service!

    Well done nonetheless bluetoffee1878
    Originally posted by Umkomaas
    Exactly as you called it in post #12 Umkomaas. Spooky hey
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 23rd Mar 18, 1:48 AM
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    Coupon-mad
    Nice result, an IAS win is rare, but that one was worth trying!
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

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