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  • FIRST POST
    • rob800
    • By rob800 2nd Mar 18, 10:36 PM
    • 20Posts
    • 4Thanks
    rob800
    Appeal rejected, go to IAS appeal next ?
    • #1
    • 2nd Mar 18, 10:36 PM
    Appeal rejected, go to IAS appeal next ? 2nd Mar 18 at 10:36 PM
    Hi

    I have read the sticky article and appealed to the company (VCS) first and was rejected as expected. They say I need to appeal to IAS next, is this worth doing ? are there templates for that anywhere ? I can't find anything on the sticky about this ? the info goes from the first appeal to the company, straight to the claim as far as I can see.

    Many thanks for help
Page 1
    • Redx
    • By Redx 2nd Mar 18, 10:56 PM
    • 18,902 Posts
    • 23,887 Thanks
    Redx
    • #2
    • 2nd Mar 18, 10:56 PM
    • #2
    • 2nd Mar 18, 10:56 PM
    you wont find any info on this because it is NOT recommended

    my advice, IGNORE unless you get a formal LBC or an MCOL within 6 years

    IGNORE any debt collector letters
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Redx
    • By Redx 2nd Mar 18, 10:59 PM
    • 18,902 Posts
    • 23,887 Thanks
    Redx
    • #3
    • 2nd Mar 18, 10:59 PM
    • #3
    • 2nd Mar 18, 10:59 PM
    that NEWBIES thread you claim to have read says this , and I quote


    The 'IAS' offered by IPC companies is considered far worse than POPLA.

    It is named and shamed on forum posts regularly as a 'kangaroo court' because even a strong appeal loses in almost every case. The IAS favours the parking firms and expects a mountain of evidence from the appellant. Do not use mitigating circumstances.

    HO87 explains the problems with the IAS anonymous and apparently unaccountable appeals system here:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=67067144#post67067144

    and this is typical thread where we've discussed the issue; all agree it appears to be a 'kangaroo court':

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5149137

    Here I explain my reasons why I don't recommend trying the appeal at IAS stage, except in very rare cases where you have a slam-dunk winning point:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=68548048&highlight=#post68548048

    However, if it's a lease/hire car and a NTK went to the hire firm first, you CAN potentially win at IAS by cribbing from this IAS win wording:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=67815901#post67815901

    DO NOT, REPEAT DO NOT PAY 15 FOR THE 'BINDING' IAS VERSION!

    Please don't start a thread asking if you should appeal to the IAS unless you have very rare circumstances that might make yours worth a try. The answer is NO, do not try IAS at all.

    Here Umkomaas explains your options:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=69418259&highlight=#post69418259


    As always, DO NOT OVERLOOK THE POWER OF A COMPLAINT TO RETAILER/LANDOWNER ABOUT THESE SCUM FIRMS:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=4766249

    SO GET COMPLAINING, EVEN IF THE PCN WAS FROM MONTHS BEFORE.


    What will happen if I lose at POPLA or IAS?

    Nothing.

    It is not a reason to pay, even though the decision will tell you to! Discussed here and in other threads you can find by searching this forum for 'lost IAS' or similar keywords:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5334100

    What happens would be:

    - you will most likely (unless it's a very litigious PPC) just get a series of hysterical 'pay up or else' debt collector letters, or maybe letters from the PPC themselves - see separate post about ignoring them, below. No need to panic.

    or

    - you might have to defend this if the PPC tries a small claim, and they might be buoyed by an IAS 'win' under their belt to brandish. If that happens, see post #2 above about beating a claim!

    Disputes have been raised with the DVLA and the CTSI regarding the IAS, 'kangaroo court' so it is perfectly legitimate to say that as a consumer you do not wish to use the IAS until the dispute is resolved and suggest an alternative ADR.

    So you could write like this poster has done - but don't expect it to stop the letter chain from daft debt collector teenagers in a call centre, who need to get a real job:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=69450157&highlight=#post69450157



    What will happen if I do not bother with the IAS stage?

    Same as the advice for those who lose. Don't pay.

    Ignore debt collector letters as per post #4 of this advice thread - except to tell them in writing (keep proof of posting/emailing) if you move house, to make sure you never miss court papers a couple of years later.

    Come back and read post #2 if you get a small claim, which defendants coached here win 99% of the time.
    yet you still started a thread, where I gave you the condensed version of "dont bother"
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 2nd Mar 18, 11:01 PM
    • 60,110 Posts
    • 73,251 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #4
    • 2nd Mar 18, 11:01 PM
    • #4
    • 2nd Mar 18, 11:01 PM
    Hi

    I have read the sticky article and appealed to the company (VCS) first and was rejected as expected. They say I need to appeal to IAS next, is this worth doing ? are there templates for that anywhere ? I can't find anything on the sticky about this ? the info goes from the first appeal to the company, straight to the claim as far as I can see.
    Originally posted by rob800
    That's because we do NOT recommend wasting your time and getting despondent from a loss at the perceived (widely held) 'kangaroo court' of IAS. I do say quite clearly in the NEWBIES thread:

    Please don't start a thread asking if you should appeal to the IAS unless you have very rare circumstances that might make yours worth a try. The answer is NO, do not try IAS at all
    So no, this is NOT a step to take, no need for threads asking! Don't go there. You will lose.

    This thread from earlier covers another IPC firm, same advice applies to you:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5803500

    Nothing else to say at this stage, unless you can get the charge cancelled by a retailer (if applicable to the site) come back when BW legal throw their weight around, or preferably stay on the forum and follow any VCS or Excel BW Legal cases, to be prepared for a claim, if they try.

    Search the forum for BW Legal and you will find loads, 99% win rate here.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 02-03-2018 at 11:03 PM.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • waamo
    • By waamo 2nd Mar 18, 11:37 PM
    • 3,916 Posts
    • 5,111 Thanks
    waamo
    • #5
    • 2nd Mar 18, 11:37 PM
    • #5
    • 2nd Mar 18, 11:37 PM
    May I humbly suggest you haven't actually read the Newbies thread.
    This space for hire.
    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 3rd Mar 18, 12:22 AM
    • 36,863 Posts
    • 21,000 Thanks
    Quentin
    • #6
    • 3rd Mar 18, 12:22 AM
    • #6
    • 3rd Mar 18, 12:22 AM
    You should keep everything in the one thread - starting a new thread at each stage means the background gets missed.


    (As well as unnecessarily cluttering up this busy forum!)
    • rob800
    • By rob800 3rd Mar 18, 4:04 PM
    • 20 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    rob800
    • #7
    • 3rd Mar 18, 4:04 PM
    • #7
    • 3rd Mar 18, 4:04 PM
    Thanks, I hadn't seen the advice further down the newbie sticky, the layout confused me a bit :-) thanks for the advice. So basically there isn't any real appeal process for VCS, as their process and the IAS are a joke ?

    I am trying to get it cancelled with the retailer but no luck yet. Will see what comes through next.

    Thanks for help
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 3rd Mar 18, 5:08 PM
    • 9,968 Posts
    • 9,766 Thanks
    The Deep
    • #8
    • 3rd Mar 18, 5:08 PM
    • #8
    • 3rd Mar 18, 5:08 PM
    This is an entirely unregulated industry which is scamming the public with inflated claims for minor breaches of contracts for alleged parking offences.

    Parking Eye, Smart and a smaller company have already been named and shamed, as has Gladstones Solicitors, and BW Legal, (who take hundreds of these cases to court, and nearly always lose), who have also been reported to the regulatory authority.

    The problem has become so rampant that MPs have agreed to enact a Bill to regulate these scammers. Watch the video of the Second Reading in the HofC recently.

    http://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/2f0384f2-eba5-4fff-ab07-cf24b6a22918?in=12:49:41

    and complain in the most robust terms to your MP. With a fair wind most of these companies may well be put out of business by Christmas
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • rob800
    • By rob800 10th Apr 18, 11:23 AM
    • 20 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    rob800
    • #9
    • 10th Apr 18, 11:23 AM
    Letter before claim received
    • #9
    • 10th Apr 18, 11:23 AM
    Hi


    I have now received a letter before claim from VCS. I didn't appeal to the waste of time IAS as recommended. Am I best going with the template from Daniel San with the pre-protocol info in it ?


    Also I suffer from anxiety and depression, which I am on medication for, if it worth me putting this in the letter and how the distress is causing my condition to worsen ?


    Thanks
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 10th Apr 18, 12:41 PM
    • 9,968 Posts
    • 9,766 Thanks
    The Deep
    There is absolutely no need to worry about a court claim from a PPC, the very worst thing that could happen (if you do not punch the judge on the hooter of course), is that you have to pay the scammer about 200, but that rarely happens if we help you.

    This particular company does not do well in court.

    https://www.bing.com/search?q=VCS+lose+in+court&form=EDNTHT&mkt=en-gb&httpsmsn=1&refig=69ff130804644c518ee4215268e08c ef&PC=ACTS&sp=-1&pq=vcs+lose+in+court&sc=2-17&qs=n&sk=&cvid=69ff130804644c518ee4215268e08cef
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • beamerguy
    • By beamerguy 10th Apr 18, 1:40 PM
    • 8,173 Posts
    • 10,706 Thanks
    beamerguy
    The Deep ....

    That's a great link and I will post it in future on every
    VCS thread to help newbies not to worry
    RBS - MNBA - CAPITAL ONE - LLOYDS

    DISGUSTING BEHAVIOUR
    • rob800
    • By rob800 10th Apr 18, 3:16 PM
    • 20 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    rob800
    Thanks, Am I best going with the Daniel San template from the sticky ?
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 10th Apr 18, 3:32 PM
    • 8,716 Posts
    • 8,624 Thanks
    KeithP
    Yes, that's a good basis.

    Certainly pick holes in the LBC but obviously don't ask for things they have sent or criticise things they have actually got right.
    .
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 11th Apr 18, 12:58 AM
    • 60,110 Posts
    • 73,251 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Show us your draft, suitably adapted. Is your case exactly like his?
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • rob800
    • By rob800 12th Apr 18, 2:41 PM
    • 20 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    rob800
    Hi, please see my draft below, I have highlighted the sections I have added. Any thoughts would be great :-)




    ear Sirs,

    I am in receipt of your Letter Before Claim of xxxx.




    Your letter contains insufficient detail of the claim and fails to provide copies of evidence your client places reliance upon, as I have requested copies of on xxxx.
    In particular you have not provided any photographic evidence of sufficient quality for me to be able to assess the validity of the alleged claim. The poor quality photographs shown on the myparkingcharge website mainly show a vehicle with a partially obscured number plate. Therefore, they are not sufficient for me to even identify if this is my vehicle or not. The only photograph apparently showing the number plate of my vehicle is a close up photo of the number plate, which could have been taken anywhere. This does not allow me to even confirm where it was taken, let alone the validity of the alleged infringement. Please provide comprehensive photographic evidence, from multiple angles, that undisputedly show the vehicle (including full unobscured number plate) in the car park in question and committing the alleged offence (including the location of all signs nearby).

    You note in your letter that I did not appeal to IAS. This is due to the fact that the IAS is not an independent appeals service and is well known as a heavily biased !!!8216;kangaroo court!!!8217; created for the benefit of IPC members, in order to attempt to offer a false perception that you have offered an independent, impartial appeals service. A county court judge will be well aware of this and the fact that you offered no independent appeal facility whatsoever (unlike other companies).


    Your client must know that on 01 October 2017 a new protocol is applicable to debt claims. Since proceedings have not yet been issued, the new protocol clearly applies and must be complied with.

    Your letter lacks specificity and breaches both the requirements of the previously applicable Practice Direction - Pre-Action Conduct (paragraphs 6(a) and 6(c)) and the new Pre-Action Protocol for Debt Claims (paragraphs 3.1(a)-(d), 5.1 and 5.2. Please treat this letter as a formal request for all of the documents / information that the protocol now requires your client to provide. Your client must not issue proceedings without complying with that protocol. I reserve the right to draw any failure of the Claimant to comply with the protocol to the attention of the court and to ask the court to stay the claim and order your client to comply with its pre-action obligations, and when costs come to be considered.

    As solicitors you must surely be familiar with the requirements of both the Practice Direction applicable pre-1 October and the Protocol which applies thereafter (and your client, as a serial litigator of small claims, should likewise be aware of them). As you (and your client) must know, the Practice Direction and Protocol bind all potential litigants, whatever the size or type of the claim. Its express purpose is to assist parties in understanding the claim and their respective positions in relation to it, to enable parties to take stock of their positions and to negotiate a settlement, or at least narrow the issues, without incurring the costs of court proceedings or using up valuable court time. It is astounding that a firm of Solicitors are sending a consumer a vague and unevidenced 'Letter before Claim' in complete ignorance of the pre-existing Practice Direction and the new Protocol.

    Nobody, including your client, is immune from the requirements and obligations of the Practice Direction and now the Protocol.

    I require your client to comply with its obligations by sending me the following information/documents:

    1. an explanation of the cause of action
    2. whether they are pursuing me as driver or keeper
    3. whether they are relying on the provisions of Schedule 4 of POFA 2012
    4. what the details of the claim are; where it is claimed the vehicle was parked, for how long, how the monies being claimed arose and have been calculated
    5. Is the claim for a contractual breach? If so, what is the date of the agreement? The names of the parties to it and provide to me a copy of that contract.
    6. Is the claim for trespass? If so, provide details.
    7. Provide me a copy of the contract with the landowner under which they assert authority to bring the claim, as required by the IPC code of practice section B, clause 1.1 !!!8220;establishing yourself as the creditor!!!8221;
    8. a plan showing where any signs were displayed and the measurements of all parking spaces in the car park.
    9. details of the signs displayed (size of sign, size of font, height at which displayed)
    10. Provide details of the original charge, and detail any interest and administrative or other charges added
    11. Provide a copy of the Information Sheet and the Reply Form


    If your client does not provide me with this information then I put you on notice that I will be relying on the cases of Webb Resolutions Ltd v Waller Needham & Green [2012] EWHC 3529 (Ch), Daejan Investments Limited v The Park West Club Limited (Part 20) !!!8211; Buxton Associates [2003] EWHC 2872, Charles Church Developments Ltd v Stent Foundations Limited & Peter Dann Limited [2007] EWHC 855 in asking the court to impose sanctions on your client and to order a stay of the proceedings, pursuant to paragraphs 13 ,15(b) and (c) and 16 of the Practice Direction, as referred to in paragraph 7.2 of the Protocol.

    Until your client has complied with its obligations and provided this information, I am unable to respond properly to the alleged claim and to consider my position in relation to it, and it is entirely premature (and a waste of costs and court time) for your client to issue proceedings. Should your client do so, then I will seek an immediate stay pursuant to paragraph 15(b) of the Practice Direction and an order that this information is provided.




    Please note that I suffer from anxiety and depression which I am on medication for. I also suffer from gastro-oesophageal reflux disease (GORD), which I am also on medication for. This condition is severely affected by stress and anxiety. These conditions have been severely aggregated by your unreasonable and aggressivepursuit of this alleged claim against me. This is causing significant distress and is affecting my quality of life. I am having to seek medical reassessment of my medication as a result, which is likely to result in additional medication and/or dosages being required. This all being documented as evidence to provide to the court for when I counter claim for the distress caused by your actions against me. I would recommend that you reconsider your intention to proceed in light of the information provided in this letter.







    Yours faithfully


    • rob800
    • By rob800 13th Apr 18, 9:18 PM
    • 20 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    rob800
    Any thoughts please guys ? :-)
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 13th Apr 18, 9:57 PM
    • 18,969 Posts
    • 29,838 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    These conditions have been severely aggregated by your unreasonable and aggressivepursuit of this alleged claim against me.
    Aggravated?
    Aggressive pursuit?

    This is all being documented as evidence to provide to the court for when I counter claim for the distress caused by your actions against me.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 14th Apr 18, 12:44 AM
    • 60,110 Posts
    • 73,251 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    You could add to this bit:

    You note in your letter that I did not appeal to IAS, which is not obligatory and would have been a case of ''futilely going through the motions'' according to an IPC firm's mistakenly shared email that is in the public domain. This is due to the fact that the 'IAS' is widely held to be a misnomer and is not an independent appeals service at all, and is well known as a heavily biased 'kangaroo court' created for the benefit of IPC members, in order to attempt to offer a false perception that you have offered an independent, impartial appeals service.

    Parliament are well aware of the conflict of interests preventing any IPC firm from being considered to be offering anything like a fair appeals process, quotes from Hansard from 2nd February 2018 included: ''appeals service is no guarantee of a fair hearing'' and ''the current system of regulation is hopeless, like putting Dracula in charge of the blood-bank''. Therefore any socially and politically aware County Court Judge would realise know this and the fact that you offered no truly independent or transparently fair appeal facility whatsoever (unlike other companies, who offer POPLA).
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

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