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  • FIRST POST
    • MSE Luke
    • By MSE Luke 19th Feb 18, 4:33 PM
    • 270Posts
    • 77Thanks
    MSE Luke
    Ive invested in Bitcoin its been a...
    • #1
    • 19th Feb 18, 4:33 PM
    Ive invested in Bitcoin its been a... 19th Feb 18 at 4:33 PM
    'You know what, the headline is wrong. I didn't invest - I gambled. I bought 250's worth of cryptocurrency - Bitcoin, Ethereum and Litecoin - in December. I know nothing about them, I just saw the price rising and thought I could make a quick buck.'

    Read MSE Guy's full blog: 'I've invested in Bitcoin - it's been a roller-coaster. Here's what I've learned'
    Last edited by MSE Luke; 19-02-2018 at 4:35 PM.
Page 2
    • Naf
    • By Naf 10th May 18, 10:42 AM
    • 3,038 Posts
    • 2,305 Thanks
    Naf
    I bought 100 worth 2 years ago (before it went totally crazy and transaction costs were low) to pay for some bits and pieces. Over the course of the year I spent 90 worth, and ended the year with 130 left over. Then it all went nuts and the value of what I had peaked at about 700.
    I moved it to a trading platform, withdrew about another 100, and thought I'd see if I could play the market a little with what is now essentially winnings. I've lost 150 trying it
    Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.
    - Mark Twain
    Arguing with idiots is like playing chess with a pigeon: no matter how good you are at chess, its just going to knock over the pieces and strut around like its victorious.
    • Aegis
    • By Aegis 10th May 18, 10:48 AM
    • 4,964 Posts
    • 3,222 Thanks
    Aegis
    "users who buy and sell coins in a similar way to an investment are required to pay capital gains tax"

    The way that legally breaks down is, if you buy crypto with money secured via a loan or similar, you are subject to capital gains tax. If you buy crypto with savings or wages, you are not.
    Originally posted by BinkyStottom
    This is nonsense. Capital gains tax makes no provision for a different rate depending on where the initial capital comes from. The exemption on things like currency is if you are buying the currency for personal use and make an incidental gain (or loss, for that matter). For example if you are travelling to Europe and convert a load of GBP into EUR for the trip, the conversion and any subsequent gains are not subject to CGT. There is no equivalence in the cryptocurrency world because there are no territories you can visit where a cryptocurrency would be deemed a travel currency.

    If you are regularly trading cryptocurrency and making a profit, you can end up in an even worse position, as you might be deemed to be carrying on a trade, in which case all of your personal gains would be treated as self-employed income instead of capital gains, increasing the rate of tax from the 10/20% CGT rate to the 20/40/45% income tax rate.
    I am an Independent Financial Adviser
    Anything I say on the forum is for discussion purposes only and should not be construed as personal financial advice. It is vitally important to do your own research before acting on information gathered from any users on this forum.
    • Aegis
    • By Aegis 10th May 18, 10:55 AM
    • 4,964 Posts
    • 3,222 Thanks
    Aegis
    I don't understand why you no-coiners are so argumentative when it comes to crypto currencies.

    This is a new opportunity for everyone. Wouldn't you have loved to have invested in Apple or Google or Amazon back when they were just starting out? This is just that! This is the new internet, these are the new Apple, the new Google, the new Amazon.

    Years ago, you couldn't give away stock in Google because people didn't understand! It wasn't something you could touch, it was an algorithm and people couldn't wrap their heads around it.

    You owe it to yourself to understand, you will be left behind and you will regret it.
    Originally posted by BinkyStottom
    This is also nonsense. Yes, people would love to go back in time and buy Google stock when it was really cheap, but what people forget is how much money was lost in IT shares almost 20 years ago. Buying the wrong stock (Ask Jeeves, AltaVista, etc) could mean that you suffered 100% losses, and even diversifying wouldn't have been much help because there were so many tech companies to choose from and the vast majority of them bubbled and crashed to nothing.

    People back then were undoubtedly saying much the same as you, i.e. "you don't want to miss out / be left behind" or "if I buy enough of these companies, eventually I'll be super rich". The difference is that those companies - or at least the ones that had even a chance of success - had a business plan, some means of generating cash on behalf of investors. The only thing most cryptocurrencies have as a means of appreciating capital is the hope that someone somewhere will buy your coins from you at some point in future for more than you are paying for them now. Essentially you're buying an empty box, albeit an empty box that has some interesting trading methods and underlying technology.

    I'm still yet to meet a cryptocurrency investment expert that can actually offer a decent method of pricing a crypto coin against a real currency, a real commodity or even another cryptocurrency with anything that looks even remotely like a fundamental calculation of value.

    The comparison to tulip mania is mostly valid. The difference is that more people can be sucked into the fad because of the internet than they could back in medieval Holland.
    I am an Independent Financial Adviser
    Anything I say on the forum is for discussion purposes only and should not be construed as personal financial advice. It is vitally important to do your own research before acting on information gathered from any users on this forum.
    • onomatopoeia99
    • By onomatopoeia99 10th May 18, 11:05 AM
    • 4,582 Posts
    • 10,478 Thanks
    onomatopoeia99
    If you are regularly trading cryptocurrency and making a profit, you can end up in an even worse position, as you might be deemed to be carrying on a trade, in which case all of your personal gains would be treated as self-employed income instead of capital gains, increasing the rate of tax from the 10/20% CGT rate to the 20/40/45% income tax rate.
    Originally posted by Aegis
    So does this also apply if I regularly buy and sell equities within my S&S ISA and make a profit? Or if I do the same in a non-ISA dealing account and make a profit?

    I want to be absolutely clear on if / when profiting from traditional investment vehicle becomes "carrying on a trade".
    Last edited by onomatopoeia99; 10-05-2018 at 11:10 AM.
    INTP, nerd, libertarian and scifi geek.
    Home is where my books are.
    • Aegis
    • By Aegis 10th May 18, 11:14 AM
    • 4,964 Posts
    • 3,222 Thanks
    Aegis
    So does this also apply if I regularly buy and sell equities within my S&S ISA and make a profit? Or if I do the same in a non-ISA dealing account and make a profit?

    I want to be absolutely clear on if / when profiting from traditional investment vehicle becomes "carrying on a trade".
    Originally posted by onomatopoeia99
    I've never actually encountered anyone falling into that category when starting from a private investor status, and it would likely be a question better put to an accountant than me. My general understanding is that if the majority of your working week is spent tracking markets, looking for opportunities, and then trading those opportunities, you would likely end up liable to income tax rather than CGT. It's quite a challenge!

    Reading back on my point, the unlikelyhood of accidentally being subject to income tax wasn't adequately stated. To clarify: I don't think it's likely at all unless you are literally quitting your day job to trade cryptocurrencies, shares, etc.

    Unhelpful HMRC guidance is available here:

    https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/capital-gains-manual/cg10260
    Last edited by Aegis; 10-05-2018 at 11:21 AM.
    I am an Independent Financial Adviser
    Anything I say on the forum is for discussion purposes only and should not be construed as personal financial advice. It is vitally important to do your own research before acting on information gathered from any users on this forum.
    • BinkyStottom
    • By BinkyStottom 10th May 18, 11:52 AM
    • 15 Posts
    • 9 Thanks
    BinkyStottom
    I'm still yet to meet a cryptocurrency investment expert that can actually offer a decent method of pricing a crypto coin against a real currency
    Originally posted by Aegis
    A real currency? What makes it real exactly? That you can hold it? That it's backed by a government?

    The fact that any government can (and does) print "real" money out of thin air doesn't set alarm bells ringing?

    You may be an independant financial advisor but an expert on crypto tax you don't appear to be. It's perfectly legal at this time to declare crypto profits as gambling and HMRC have confirmed that some cases may be investigated and assessed on their own basis.

    Look, explaining why Bitcoin/Crypto is important and why it is changing the world is so difficult and so time consuming that I'm giving up. You either understand or you don't and if you don't, you owe it to yourself to find out more because it's not going away.

    I highly recommend starting with a documentary entitled "The Rise And Rise Of Bitcoin" https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2821314/

    And with that, I bid you good day and good luck with all future investments, I hope they are very profitable for all of you...if 4 or even 10% per year is considered profitable? Personally I prefer the 150% gains I've made on my last investment on March 31st, I mean...I'm no financial advisor but 150% profit in 1 month and 10 days, I think that's a fairly good return right?
    • Reaper
    • By Reaper 10th May 18, 12:09 PM
    • 6,300 Posts
    • 4,565 Thanks
    Reaper
    I don't understand why you no-coiners are so argumentative when it comes to crypto currencies.

    This is a new opportunity for everyone. Wouldn't you have loved to have invested in Apple or Google or Amazon back when they were just starting out? This is just that! This is the new internet, these are the new Apple, the new Google, the new Amazon.
    Originally posted by BinkyStottom
    This reminds me very much of the Dot Com boom and bust.

    * Investors threw money at Dot Coms regardless of whether they had a solid business case or not.
    * Much nonsense was spouted by "experts" eg Profits don't matter, it's a new paradigm. Instead people invested just because the stocks were going up.
    * Almost all of them failed. A tiny number survived at more realistic valuations and went on to grow.

    With hindsight I predict all the above will be said about crypto in time.

    Some of the platforms may survive (eg Ripple, Etherium?) and become genuinely useful, but it does not follow that the ridiculous valuations of the crypto currencies will be continue once the hype is over.

    Quite possibly it will take a new platform with a new stable coin designed to eliminate speculation before it finally comes of age.
    • ValiantSon
    • By ValiantSon 10th May 18, 12:29 PM
    • 2,537 Posts
    • 2,511 Thanks
    ValiantSon
    The hills are alive with the sound of the deluded.

    I love these threads for their proliferation with zealot-like ignorance.
    • Aegis
    • By Aegis 10th May 18, 1:20 PM
    • 4,964 Posts
    • 3,222 Thanks
    Aegis
    A real currency? What makes it real exactly? That you can hold it? That it's backed by a government?
    Originally posted by BinkyStottom
    That you can legally settle debts using the currency. In other words, it is legal tender somewhere.

    The fact that any government can (and does) print "real" money out of thin air doesn't set alarm bells ringing?
    No.

    You may be an independant financial advisor but an expert on crypto tax you don't appear to be. It's perfectly legal at this time to declare crypto profits as gambling and HMRC have confirmed that some cases may be investigated and assessed on their own basis.
    "Perfectly legal" would imply you have a ruling from a judge on the issue. Could you please source that to back up your claim? If not, all you have is legal opinion. Could you source that instead? If you don't have either of those, all you have is a claim.

    Even if true, do you not think it is telling that HMRC consider this gambling rather than sensible investment?

    Finally, this isn't anything like how you made this claim to begin with. Remember saying this:

    The way that legally breaks down is, if you buy crypto with money secured via a loan or similar, you are subject to capital gains tax. If you buy crypto with savings or wages, you are not.
    This has nothing to do with gambling vs trading, so your "understanding" of tax has had to evolve in the last couple of hours. What else might you be wrong about?

    Look, explaining why Bitcoin/Crypto is important and why it is changing the world is so difficult and so time consuming that I'm giving up. You either understand or you don't and if you don't, you owe it to yourself to find out more because it's not going away.
    I looked into it and decided the emperor was wearing no clothes.

    I highly recommend starting with a documentary entitled "The Rise And Rise Of Bitcoin" https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2821314/

    And with that, I bid you good day and good luck with all future investments, I hope they are very profitable for all of you...if 4 or even 10% per year is considered profitable? Personally I prefer the 150% gains I've made on my last investment on March 31st, I mean...I'm no financial advisor but 150% profit in 1 month and 10 days, I think that's a fairly good return right?
    You'd have done better if you'd put it all on a single number on a roulette table and won.
    Last edited by Aegis; 10-05-2018 at 1:22 PM.
    I am an Independent Financial Adviser
    Anything I say on the forum is for discussion purposes only and should not be construed as personal financial advice. It is vitally important to do your own research before acting on information gathered from any users on this forum.
    • Malthusian
    • By Malthusian 10th May 18, 2:01 PM
    • 4,651 Posts
    • 7,435 Thanks
    Malthusian
    The way that legally breaks down is, if you buy crypto with money secured via a loan or similar, you are subject to capital gains tax. If you buy crypto with savings or wages, you are not.
    Originally posted by BinkyStottom

    Abject nonsense on a stick.

    Good luck with the tax evasion.
    • unitedwestand
    • By unitedwestand 10th May 18, 2:43 PM
    • 164 Posts
    • 130 Thanks
    unitedwestand
    Those cynical of Bitcoin and digital currencies really need to have a long hard look at the fiat currency they're using.


    Go in to your purse or wallet and grab a note.... any note.. on it will be "promises to pay the bearer on demand"


    All these notes are just promissory notes/ IOU's


    What are the notes promising? They are promising that you can take them along to the bank and get your gold and silver back in exchange for them.


    Can you actually do that? No, governments abolished the gold standard so you can't do that anymore.

    Why? Because the banks don't have any/ or enough gold


    Where did all the original gold go? Who knows


    So what backs the value of the paper? The government classing it as "legal tender" and a public belief that it has value.

    Does that not leave it very open to manipulation, miscalculation, fraud etc? Yes

    Go have a look in to the above/ validate

    Have a look in to how cryptocurrency

    Honestly... fiat currency that we use today far far more silly than cryptocurrency.
    • Aegis
    • By Aegis 10th May 18, 3:06 PM
    • 4,964 Posts
    • 3,222 Thanks
    Aegis
    Those cynical of Bitcoin and digital currencies really need to have a long hard look at the fiat currency they're using.


    Go in to your purse or wallet and grab a note.... any note.. on it will be "promises to pay the bearer on demand"


    All these notes are just promissory notes/ IOU's


    What are the notes promising? They are promising that you can take them along to the bank and get your gold and silver back in exchange for them.
    Originally posted by unitedwestand
    Where does it say anything about gold or silver on the notes? If you take in your 5 note you can get five 1 coins. Promise upheld!

    Currency doesn't need to be convertible into commodities for it to be useful - instead it's a store of value because debts are recorded in the currency, and good can be directly purchased in the currency, so you have a degree of value stickiness.


    Can you actually do that? No, governments abolished the gold standard so you can't do that anymore.

    Why? Because the banks don't have any/ or enough gold


    Where did all the original gold go? Who knows


    So what backs the value of the paper? The government classing it as "legal tender" and a public belief that it has value.

    Does that not leave it very open to manipulation, miscalculation, fraud etc? Yes

    Go have a look in to the above/ validate

    Have a look in to how cryptocurrency

    Honestly... fiat currency that we use today far far more silly than cryptocurrency.
    Based on the above, the rest of this is just irrelevant. A fiat currency makes a lot of sense because it allows more fine control of money supply and demand pressures, which can increase the velocity of currency in a given economy, which can stimulate various parts of said economy. For example, there was a lot of quantitative easing (money printing) over the past 10 years to help stimulate the economy following the financial crisis. This would have been impossible under a commodity standard because the amount of currency in circulation is strictly limited by the amount of gold to hand.

    We're lucky to no longer be on the gold standard, but the good news is that there is nothing stopping you from still owning gold if you genuinely think that's in your best interests.
    Last edited by Aegis; 10-05-2018 at 3:29 PM.
    I am an Independent Financial Adviser
    Anything I say on the forum is for discussion purposes only and should not be construed as personal financial advice. It is vitally important to do your own research before acting on information gathered from any users on this forum.
    • markj113
    • By markj113 10th May 18, 4:01 PM
    • 179 Posts
    • 129 Thanks
    markj113
    For example, there was a lot of quantitative easing (money printing) over the past 10 years to help stimulate the economy following the financial crisis. This would have been impossible under a commodity standard because the amount of currency in circulation is strictly limited by the amount of gold to hand.

    We're lucky to no longer be on the gold standard, but the good news is that there is nothing stopping you from still owning gold if you genuinely think that's in your best interests.
    Originally posted by Aegis

    If we were still on a gold linked money standard perhaps the financial crisis would not have occurred in the first place.

    Endless bailouts and QE just encourages financial recklessness in the banking industry. 10 years on and now Deutsche Bank is the next on the brink.
    Last edited by markj113; 10-05-2018 at 4:04 PM.
    • Aegis
    • By Aegis 10th May 18, 4:06 PM
    • 4,964 Posts
    • 3,222 Thanks
    Aegis
    If we were still on a gold linked money standard perhaps the financial crisis would not have occurred in the first place.

    Endless bailouts and QE just encourages financial recklessness in the banking industry. 10 years on and now Deutsche Bank is the next on the brink.
    Originally posted by markj113
    It's very unlikely to have helped. The Great Depression happened under the gold standard, and that's the worst fallout from an economic crash in over a century. There are actually papers on the subject of whether a fiat currency could have led to a faster recovery, with the general conclusion that it actually would have done.

    I've never personally understood the hatred I sometimes see for the fiat system. Ultimately it works.
    I am an Independent Financial Adviser
    Anything I say on the forum is for discussion purposes only and should not be construed as personal financial advice. It is vitally important to do your own research before acting on information gathered from any users on this forum.
    • markj113
    • By markj113 10th May 18, 4:09 PM
    • 179 Posts
    • 129 Thanks
    markj113
    If the fiat system works then why are interest rates where they are, global debt at levels never seen in human history and the printing presses running at full steam to prop up the artificially inflated markets and housing.

    The current state is not sustainable and it will all end badly sooner rather than later.
    • chucknorris
    • By chucknorris 10th May 18, 4:15 PM
    • 9,714 Posts
    • 14,497 Thanks
    chucknorris
    I don't understand why you no-coiners are so argumentative when it comes to crypto currencies.

    This is a new opportunity for everyone. Wouldn't you have loved to have invested in Apple or Google or Amazon back when they were just starting out? This is just that! This is the new internet, these are the new Apple, the new Google, the new Amazon.

    Years ago, you couldn't give away stock in Google because people didn't understand! It wasn't something you could touch, it was an algorithm and people couldn't wrap their heads around it.

    You owe it to yourself to understand, you will be left behind and you will regret it.
    Originally posted by BinkyStottom
    It would be a huge gamble, I already have just about more than I can spend, so there would be no upside, with a huge downside. So there isn't any sense in me taking on the risk of bitcoin.
    Chuck Norris can kill two stones with one bird
    The only time Chuck Norris was wrong was when he thought he had made a mistake
    Chuck Norris puts the "laughter" in "manslaughter".
    I've started running again, after several injuries had forced me to stop
    • ValiantSon
    • By ValiantSon 10th May 18, 7:32 PM
    • 2,537 Posts
    • 2,511 Thanks
    ValiantSon
    Those cynical of Bitcoin and digital currencies really need to have a long hard look at the fiat currency they're using.


    Go in to your purse or wallet and grab a note.... any note.. on it will be "promises to pay the bearer on demand"


    All these notes are just promissory notes/ IOU's
    Originally posted by unitedwestand
    And so they were when we were on the gold standard.

    What are the notes promising? They are promising that you can take them along to the bank and get your gold and silver back in exchange for them.
    Originally posted by unitedwestand
    Oh dear, more uninformed opinion from the acolytes of crypto-currency.

    Can you actually do that? No, governments abolished the gold standard so you can't do that anymore.

    Why? Because the banks don't have any/ or enough gold
    Originally posted by unitedwestand
    No, that wasn't the reason that currencies were taken off the gold standard. The finite nature of gold was a significant problem anda disparity grew between economic growth and the supply of gold, particularly at a global level, with large economies, e.g. UK and USA holding massive gold stockpiles in reserve.The First World War further demonstrated the problems of the gold standard as government expenditure rose based on indebtedness, thus the value of currencies declined (inflation). It became evident that the gold standard was not all it had been cracked up to be.The reality was, thaft after the war, pounds sterling and US dollars became global reserve currencies, and thus even more of the gold reserves became concentrated in the hands of these major world economies. In an attempt to stop people converting cash to gold following the 1929 Wall Street Crash, a number of countries increased interest rates to encourage investors to keep their currency holdings, rather than exchange for gold and depelete reserves. The Second World War siilarly damaged confidence in gold as a suitable basis for currency, and Bretton-Woods sought to remedy the situation by basing the value of national currencies in relation to the dollar, which was, in turn, convertible to gold. The truth is that a fiat currency allows for greater flexibility in the money supply, while the gold standard undermines countries' ability to use monetary policy.

    But, hey, why let facts get in the way of comments about crypto-currency?!?


    Where did all the original gold go? Who knows
    Originally posted by unitedwestand
    Um, lots of of people do, but apparently not you. Many sovereign governments hold gold reserves, but the historic stockpiles of the leading economic powers of the ninenteenth century still remain, while the USA cornered the market in gold during the 1930s.

    So what backs the value of the paper? The government classing it as "legal tender" and a public belief that it has value.
    Originally posted by unitedwestand
    The first thing that you have got correct! That isn't a problem, however, it is entirely sensible for a currency to be based on a fiat and common acceptance. Indeed, that is the very benefit of a monetised economy, I can take my pound and radily give it to someone else in exchange for goods, and they can then take that pound and do likewise.

    You don't seem to understand how a currency works in general terms, so I worry about your understanding of crypto-currencies.

    Does that not leave it very open to manipulation, miscalculation, fraud etc? Yes
    Originally posted by unitedwestand
    No.

    Go have a look in to the above/ validate

    Have a look in to how cryptocurrency

    Honestly... fiat currency that we use today far far more silly than cryptocurrency.
    Originally posted by unitedwestand
    No, it really isn't, as anyone who has ever studied (and understood) economics will confirm.
    • Hutch143
    • By Hutch143 10th May 18, 8:38 PM
    • 4 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Hutch143
    Crypto
    Yes its a gamble as are most things in life , I have 10k invested (gambled) in crypto I have already gained 5K profit and pulled that out , the markets dip and peek just like the stock exchange , its your choice to buy or sell as u see it .
    I can advise that you research whatever coin you fancy , I buy what I think will benefit the world the internet , theres a lot of crap out there , and beware giveaways they can be fake .

    I have invested in TRON and IOTA , My opinion on IOTA is the future is IOTA , the future when machines talk to eachother (no not like Terminator) when your car tell your house that you are on your way home and the heating comes on , and you house knows the outside temp and inside temp and the heating adjusts to your preferred heat . Bosh VW FUjitsu and many others investing in IOTA .

    Its a gamble thats for sure .

    DON'T PUT IN WHAT YOU CAN'T AFFORD TO LOSE ,,,,,,,
    Paul H
    Last edited by Hutch143; 10-05-2018 at 8:41 PM.
    • msallen
    • By msallen 10th May 18, 8:43 PM
    • 880 Posts
    • 988 Thanks
    msallen
    How about you share your extensive knowledge of the subject with us? Then we can point out just how little you really know.
    Originally posted by BinkyStottom
    In order to point out that the emperor has no clothes I don't need to go into detail about the fine weaving of the non-existent fabric or the vibrant hue of its dye.
    • bowlhead99
    • By bowlhead99 10th May 18, 10:14 PM
    • 8,243 Posts
    • 15,031 Thanks
    bowlhead99
    Yes its a gamble as are most things in life , I have 10k invested (gambled) in crypto I have already gained 5K profit and pulled that out.
    Originally posted by Hutch143
    Clearly you are a newbie. If you had gambled in the early days your ten cents in bitcoin would have been worth ten to twenty thousand dollars: a hundred thousand percent return. Coming late to the party and acting like you've just discovered the holy grail with your fifty perfect return isn't impressing anyone.

    In the context of such returns (the fractions of bitcoins I have left were mostly bought pretty late, in the $300 range, then split into BTC and BTH, with the BTCs alone getting up to the $20k range last year and currently back down to only 3000% profit).... what kind of fool gloats on a forum that he made 50% profit and then pulled it out - of something that he claims is the future...
    My opinion on IOTA is the future is IOTA , the future when machines talk to eachother (no not like Terminator) when your car tell your house that you are on your way home and the heating comes on
    If you were enough of a grown-up to have your own house you would know there are any number of apps that perform a similar function. British Gas, one of the oldest and most boring-sounding utility companies, had their Hive website/app back in 2013. Were you in long trousers by then? If I'm heading home, I don't need my car to guess that I'm going home; it takes only a few seconds for me to click to say I want the heating on when I get there. I can do that - perhaps while taking a dump on company time - before leaving the office. Quite efficient.

    and you house knows the outside temp and inside temp and the heating adjusts to your preferred heat
    I'm only 40ish so a youngster compared to many here. And not from a particularly wealthy family. Still, I've lived in a house with central heating and a "thermostat" function for as long as I can remember because systems that could measure the temperature and moderate heat output were commonplace by the mid to late 70s.

    Are you suggesting that a virtual coin called "IOTA" is somehow enabling the inventions in home automation that have already been created? Or that innovation in home technology wouldn't happen without the coin? Or is it a special coin that has more value when my car speaks to my heating and less when it doesn't? Doesn't really seem a compelling reason to invest. I mean, gamble.

    DON'T PUT IN WHAT YOU CAN'T AFFORD TO LOSE ,,,,,,,
    Paul H
    Thank you for the advice, but that's common knowledge and many will routinely apply it to a range of investments, speculative scenarios and risky japes. It works for cryptocurrency, Ponzi schemes and dipping your wick while on a business trip near Mong Kok.
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