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  • FIRST POST
    • tonkasdog
    • By tonkasdog 19th Feb 18, 1:36 PM
    • 69Posts
    • 12Thanks
    tonkasdog
    Court Claim Form N1 Received for PCN 18 months ago
    • #1
    • 19th Feb 18, 1:36 PM
    Court Claim Form N1 Received for PCN 18 months ago 19th Feb 18 at 1:36 PM
    Hi guys,

    Hoping I can get some help regarding a county court claim form received on the 16 Feb from County Court Business centre in Northampton. The claimant is "Civil Enforcement Limited"

    It relates to one of our drivers (we are a Ltd company operating minibuses) who inadvertently parked at a retail park for just under 3 hours between jobs on the 27 Aug 2016

    The claim form has been issued to our company but they have the company name slightly wrong, for example:

    joe bloggs services Ltd instead of joe bloggs services (NW) Ltd (thought I'd mention this in case it could result in a get out of jail free card!)

    I have done an "Acknowledgement of service" online this morning to buy extra time and have stated that we dispute the whole claim.

    They are claiming 338.76 in total. I have made a note that I need to submit a defence by the 16 March 18, does this sound right?

    Any advice on how to compile our defence or what we should/shouldn't include would be very much appreciated.

    Look forward to any help you can offer.

    Thanks
Page 4
    • tonkasdog
    • By tonkasdog 12th Aug 18, 1:09 PM
    • 69 Posts
    • 12 Thanks
    tonkasdog
    There where no witnesses, I have no evidence. I wasn't driving the vehicle at the time
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 12th Aug 18, 1:09 PM
    • 9,741 Posts
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    KeithP
    I noticed on the Notice of Allocation I received that the claimant must by the 15 Aug pay the court a 25 fee or the case will be struck off. Is it common for them to not pay this and it be struck off?
    Originally posted by tonkasdog
    Are you following any other CEL threads?

    Yes, it is quite possible... even probable.
    .
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 12th Aug 18, 1:12 PM
    • 9,741 Posts
    • 10,097 Thanks
    KeithP
    There where no witnesses, I have no evidence. I wasn't driving the vehicle at the time
    Originally posted by tonkasdog
    You, as the keeper of the vehicle, are a witness to events.
    .
    • tonkasdog
    • By tonkasdog 12th Aug 18, 1:15 PM
    • 69 Posts
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    tonkasdog
    It's a Ltd company owned vehicle but I'm the director acting on the companies behalf. What is the outcome if no written evidence or witness statements are sent over?
    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 12th Aug 18, 1:18 PM
    • 37,489 Posts
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    Quentin
    It's to your detriment not to supply a WS

    See advice on preparing a WS in the newbies FAQ thread. #2
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 12th Aug 18, 1:19 PM
    • 9,741 Posts
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    KeithP
    You will lose.

    I suspect that CEL are waiting to see if you produce a WS and evidence. If you don't they will pay the hearing fee and win the case.
    If you do produce the goods they will probably not bother paying the fee and the case gets struck out.

    I must stress that is purely guesswork on my part.
    My crystal ball is not very clear in this weather.
    .
    • tonkasdog
    • By tonkasdog 12th Aug 18, 1:28 PM
    • 69 Posts
    • 12 Thanks
    tonkasdog
    Thanks Quentin, I'll check that over and Keith I'm guessing your right even with the dodgy weather
    • tonkasdog
    • By tonkasdog 13th Aug 18, 11:01 AM
    • 69 Posts
    • 12 Thanks
    tonkasdog
    Hi guys,
    Just been reading through bargepoles post and it does worry me slightly.
    He mentions a lot of the facts my case relies on as follows:

    the arrangements between landowner and PPC are not relevant, as has been ruled by the higher courts. You need to concentrate on things that make your case substantially different, otherwise you're unlikely to win.
    MY CASE IS NOTHING SPECIAL, DRIVER WASN'T AWARE OF SIGNAGE AND OVERSTAYED

    I didn't see the signs: Unless you can demonstrate, with evidence, that the signage in the car park was obscured, printed in a tiny font, high up on poles or otherwise unreadable, this is a rubbish argument. The signs are there to be seen, and you should have seen them.
    HE DIDN'T SEE THE SIGNS, BUT ACCORDING TO THIS HE SHOULD HAVE DONE

    No loss to PPC: There doesn't have to be any more, since the Supreme Court ruling in Parking Eye v Beavis. All they have to show is that there is a legitimate interest in enforcing the rules of the car park. So don't use phrases like 'genuine pre-estimate of loss' (GPEOL), that's a guaranteed loser. Also, the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contract Regulations 1999 (UTCCR) is a dead duck following that Beavis ruling.
    THATS ANOTHER POINT I USED THAT SEEMS WILL BE GOING NOWHERE
    • tonkasdog
    • By tonkasdog 13th Aug 18, 11:23 AM
    • 69 Posts
    • 12 Thanks
    tonkasdog
    Hi guys, another quick question, on the Notice of Allocation letter is has the following:
    The parties shall by 4pm on 15 Aug file at court and serve on each other any written evidence which they propose to rely, which shall include statements of the parties themselves IF they wish to give evidence.

    Is this basically the witness statement they are referring to?
    So I should also receive written evidence from the Claimant as it says "serve on each other"
    When I had to send a copy of my defence to the court and the claimant should the claimant have sent me a copy of their defence?
    • bargepole
    • By bargepole 13th Aug 18, 11:33 AM
    • 2,429 Posts
    • 6,967 Thanks
    bargepole
    When I had to send a copy of my defence to the court and the claimant should the claimant have sent me a copy of their defence?
    Originally posted by tonkasdog
    How can the claimant have a 'defence'?

    They are the claimant. Their case is stated in their particulars of claim.

    You are the defendant. You have filed a defence.

    Now both parties must file and serve their witness statement, and any evidence which supports their case.

    It's not brain surgery.

    I have been providing assistance, including Lay Representation at Court hearings (current score: won 34, lost 10), to defendants in parking cases for over 5 years. I have an LLB (Hons) degree, and am a Graduate member of CILEx, studying towards a Fellowship (equivalent to solicitor) in Civil Litigation. However, any advice given on these forums by me is NOT formal legal advice, and I accept no liability for its accuracy.
    • tonkasdog
    • By tonkasdog 13th Aug 18, 11:34 AM
    • 69 Posts
    • 12 Thanks
    tonkasdog
    When's it's all new to you it's not straight forward!
    • tonkasdog
    • By tonkasdog 13th Aug 18, 11:36 AM
    • 69 Posts
    • 12 Thanks
    tonkasdog
    For all I know they could have been asked to defend/justify what they have put in the particulars of claim
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 14th Aug 18, 2:51 AM
    • 62,736 Posts
    • 75,656 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    The parties shall by 4pm on 15 Aug file at court and serve on each other any written evidence which they propose to rely, which shall include statements of the parties themselves IF they wish to give evidence.

    Is this basically the witness statement they are referring to?
    Yes.

    Have you now filed your own WS and evidence?

    CEL will then discontinue IMHO.
    • tonkasdog
    • By tonkasdog 14th Aug 18, 10:33 AM
    • 69 Posts
    • 12 Thanks
    tonkasdog
    Hi Coupon-mad,
    I've put today aside to work on my WS, I know it's pushing it fine but I simply haven't had the time as the business is going through a very busy period. I don't have any evidence to submit. I have printed off a witness statement example and intend to try and compile mine along the same lines whilst making it as relevant to my defence as possible.
    I'll post it here before sending off and emailing the courts. Do you know if the WS needs to go to Nottingham where the defence was sent or will it now go to the court where the hearing is being held? Can't seem to find an answer to this.
    Thanks
    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 14th Aug 18, 11:44 AM
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    Quentin
    Was the hearing moved from Nottingham at your request? It should be at your chosen court, not the claimant's.


    You send a copy to the Claimant as well as the Court dealing with this
    • tonkasdog
    • By tonkasdog 14th Aug 18, 11:50 AM
    • 69 Posts
    • 12 Thanks
    tonkasdog
    Hi Quentin,

    I asked for the court near me but it's gone to one about 10 miles away, I read as it's a Ltd company that's the defendant it's not always the court you request
    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 14th Aug 18, 11:54 AM
    • 37,489 Posts
    • 21,703 Thanks
    Quentin
    Yes that's correct


    If you win you will get your travel expenses paid by the claimant for attending court (ask the judge for them if/when you win)
    • tonkasdog
    • By tonkasdog 14th Aug 18, 2:51 PM
    • 69 Posts
    • 12 Thanks
    tonkasdog
    Hi guys, this is short I know but have to post within the next hour, I'm guessing something is better than nothing.


    -------------------------
    Witness Statement
    -------------------------

    1. I xxxxx, of xxxxxxxxxx, acting on behalf of the Defendant in this matter. I will say as follows:

    2. It is admitted that the Defendant was the authorised registered keeper of the vehicle in question at the time of the alleged incident, but I was not the driver of the vehicle
    so have no knowledge of the events, or signage terms on the date in
    question and the Claimant did not identify the driver.

    3. The defendant has no liability, as the defendant is the Keeper of the vehicle and the Claimant must rely upon the strict provisions of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 in order to hold me responsible for the driver!!!8217;s alleged breach.

    4. As mentioned in my defence it is believed Civil Enforcement do not hold a legitimate contract at this car park and have no legal right to bring a claim in their name. I have not been presented with clear authorisation from the landowner for Civil Enforcement to issue tickets on their land; there is no clear evidence of any contract.

    5. As mentioned in my defence, Civil Enforcement has added unrecoverable sums to the original parking charge. Overstaying in a car park by 56 minutes could not realistically cause the parking company to lose 50/100 therefore the charge would be deemed a penalty, unenforceable in a consumer contract.

    5. The claimant described a charge of 50 as !!!8216;legal fees!!!8217; not !!!8216;contractual costs!!!8217; CPR 31.14 does not permit these to be recoverable in the Small Claims Court

    6. It is my position that, under the doctrine of promissory estoppel, the Claimant has no standing, or cause of action, to litigate in this matter.

    7. I invite the Court to dismiss this claim in its entirety, and to award my costs of attendance at the hearing, such as are allowable pursuant to CPR 27.14.

    Statement of Truth

    I confirm that the above facts and statements are true to the best of my knowledge and recollection.
    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 14th Aug 18, 2:58 PM
    • 37,489 Posts
    • 21,703 Thanks
    Quentin
    Looks like a defence rehash rather than a ws
    • tonkasdog
    • By tonkasdog 14th Aug 18, 3:02 PM
    • 69 Posts
    • 12 Thanks
    tonkasdog
    Isn't a witness statement basically an expansion of the defence points?
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