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  • FIRST POST
    • jph572
    • By jph572 13th Feb 18, 11:42 PM
    • 11Posts
    • 4Thanks
    jph572
    Indigo Train Station PCN
    • #1
    • 13th Feb 18, 11:42 PM
    Indigo Train Station PCN 13th Feb 18 at 11:42 PM
    Hi

    I received a "Notice to Owner" from Indigo PCN Admin centre (basically iPayMyPCN or ZZPS) for an offence allegedly committed on 20/09/2017.
    I received the letter dated 01/02/2018 offering me chance to appeal. Which I did. It was then rejected with the exact same reason as the above (hineyb's post), but with no offer of another appeal to POPLA (no code supplied)).

    I have since asked for a code, but no reply as yet.

    My case is that they have accused the driver of my vehicle parking in a "Season Ticket Only" space before 0930hrs. Ticket was issued at 0911hrs. Driver actually paid for the ticket via a phone app at 0930hrs whilst on a train.

    In my reply requesting a POPLA code, I noted that they failed to write to me within 56 days of the alleged offence, have they got a leg to stand on?

    Thanks
Page 1
    • jph572
    • By jph572 13th Feb 18, 11:44 PM
    • 11 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    jph572
    • #2
    • 13th Feb 18, 11:44 PM
    Latest Update...
    • #2
    • 13th Feb 18, 11:44 PM
    After emailing them, again asking for a Popla code and sending a copy of the first letter I have received about the issue, I received the following reply:

    Good morning,

    The back of our letters is a template that refers to Parking Charge Notices but does not apply to Penalty Notices issued under Railway Byelaw 14.

    If you refer to your appeal rejection letter, it states that payment should be made within 7 days.

    The original Penalty Notice was affixed to the vehicle on 20 September 2017, the matter was referred to us on 31 January 2018 and so our first letter was sent out on 01 February 2018.

    In the absence of payment, this matter will be referred to our clients' solicitors.

    Kind regards,
    Leo Feather
    • pappa golf
    • By pappa golf 13th Feb 18, 11:59 PM
    • 8,706 Posts
    • 9,310 Thanks
    pappa golf
    • #3
    • 13th Feb 18, 11:59 PM
    • #3
    • 13th Feb 18, 11:59 PM
    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showpost.php?p=73878071&postcount=41


    no point in going thru this again and listening to zzps pathetic responses
    Save a Rachael

    buy a share in crapita
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 14th Feb 18, 11:27 AM
    • 11,047 Posts
    • 11,015 Thanks
    The Deep
    • #4
    • 14th Feb 18, 11:27 AM
    • #4
    • 14th Feb 18, 11:27 AM
    Also read these

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5789847

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5786721


    and Watch this


    http://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/2f0384f2-eba5-4fff-ab07-cf24b6a22918?in=12:49:41


    and complain like Donald to your MP. If enough MPs support this Bill these scammers could be toast by Christmas.
    Last edited by The Deep; 14-02-2018 at 11:31 AM.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 14th Feb 18, 11:59 AM
    • 4,202 Posts
    • 5,033 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    • #5
    • 14th Feb 18, 11:59 AM
    • #5
    • 14th Feb 18, 11:59 AM
    Ask them how a consumer is expected to know the difference
    Ask them for what will this be reffered for - civil or magistrates court

    You only have alittle time to get this past the 6 months
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 14th Feb 18, 12:59 PM
    • 64,896 Posts
    • 77,478 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #6
    • 14th Feb 18, 12:59 PM
    • #6
    • 14th Feb 18, 12:59 PM
    They have no legs to stand on and you just need to string it out to 6 months, like you will have read on all the other dozens of Indigo Railway threads here, doing the same. No POPLA.

    Complain to your MP and that the BPA and Indigo have colluded to remove POPLA, seemingly because Indigo weren't winning, which they felt made the position untenable, so they just removed the ADR altogether...
    • financerulez
    • By financerulez 15th Feb 18, 12:07 AM
    • 103 Posts
    • 187 Thanks
    financerulez
    • #7
    • 15th Feb 18, 12:07 AM
    • #7
    • 15th Feb 18, 12:07 AM
    Notice to Owner? How do they know who the Owner is? You should have responded saying you are the Reg Keeper and reply as such. Not that it is likely to matter in your case.

    Your aim is to run it past 6 months (20 March) - so just waste as much time as possible. Reply at the latest possible time to each of their letters, raise stupid questions, say their letter got lost in the post, etc. The other threads will provide good examples.

    A good starting point could be asking them which specific byelaw they think has been breached. Also keep demanding a POPLA code. They won't give you one, but they offered independent adjudication, and you'd like to take them up on that offer. (Wastes more time) Also it!!!8217;s unclear who you are meant to be paying, another letter, another week goes by.

    Think you're in a pretty good position:
    If you!!!8217;ve admitted to being Owner, then there is a miniscule chance that they COULD prosecute you for a byelaw breach in the Mag Court, because there is so little clarity around ownership liability in the byelaws. I would bet everything I own that a prosecution would be unsuccessful against an Owner though. In the past (and we!!!8217;re talking 3 years ago and only East Midlands, Northern Rail, really IIRC) prosecutions had always included the RK admitting they were the driver.
    BUT: It would need to be in the next 5 weeks, they can!!!8217;t pass your details to the TOC, they would have to pay for a private prosecution, they would receive none of the fine, they would have to win the case and we!!!8217;re unsure on the interpretation of the law on whether an Owner can even breach a byelaw (see Handbags late comments on my thread), there!!!8217;s not been a Mag Case against Owners for years (I have FOI!!!8217;d the MoJ to try and find out the stats)
    So: Not very likely they!!!8217;re going to do that, and very likely they!!!8217;re just trying to scam you for money. Note they may still pursue you after 6 months, but at that point you can write back saying the deadline for prosecution has gone past, there is no chance of them succeeding, if they continue to contact you, you will sue them for harassment.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 15th Feb 18, 7:47 AM
    • 20,725 Posts
    • 32,646 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    • #8
    • 15th Feb 18, 7:47 AM
    • #8
    • 15th Feb 18, 7:47 AM
    Great input @financerulez. It's good to see someone new to the site providing assistance to others with helpful advice. Most newbies lap it up from the small number of regular contributors, then when we've got them off their charge, disappear for ever (or until they pick up another one!).
    Please note, we are not a legal, residential or credit advice forum, rather one that helps motorists fight private parking charges, primarily at the 'front-end' of the process.
    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 15th Feb 18, 9:39 AM
    • 38,070 Posts
    • 85,407 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    • #9
    • 15th Feb 18, 9:39 AM
    • #9
    • 15th Feb 18, 9:39 AM
    Access to an independent appeal for not less than one year is your right as detailed in the Alternative Dispute Resolution Act (ADR) 2015.

    Demand ADR, and complain to the BPA, DVLA, and your MP if they don't provide it.

    These are some of the comments made by the MPs in Parliament concerning the unregulated parking industry (Feb 2018):

    https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2018-02-02/debates/CC84AF5E-AC6E-4E14-81B1-066E6A892807/Parking(CodeOfPractice)Bill

    ''Rip-offs from car park Cowboys must stop''; unfair treatment; signage deliberately confusing to ensure a PCN is issued; ''years of abuse by rogue parking companies''; bloodsuckers; ''the current system of regulation is hopeless, like putting Dracula in charge of the blood-bank''; extortionate fines; rogue operators; ''sense of injustice''; unfair charges and notices; wilfully misleading; signage is a deliberate act to deceive or mislead; ''confusing signs are often deliberate, to trap innocent drivers''; unreasonable; a curse; harassing; operating in a disgusting way; appeals service is no guarantee of a fair hearing; loathed; outrageous scam; dodgy practice; outrageous abuse; unscrupulous practices; ''the British Parking Association is as much use as a multi-storey car park in the Gobi desert''; and finally, by way of unanimous conclusion: ''we need to crack down on these rogue companies. They are an absolute disgrace to this country. Ordinary motorists and ordinary residents should not have to put up with this''.

    These are the exact words used, so you should quote them to your MP in a complaint and ask him/her to contact Sir Greg Knight MP if he wants further information about this scam.

    With reference to the bit in bold above, ask the BPA what they intend to do in order to change the minds of MPs and the motoring public.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 15th Feb 18, 9:46 AM
    • 11,047 Posts
    • 11,015 Thanks
    The Deep
    Nip this scam in the bud, watch this video

    http://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/2f0384f2-eba5-4fff-ab07-cf24b6a22918?in=12:49:41

    and complain in robust terms to your MP. The PPC know their charges are unlawful, but until this scam industry is regulated they will continue to target the timid and vulnerable.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • jph572
    • By jph572 19th Mar 18, 8:31 PM
    • 11 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    jph572
    Hi All

    Just an update. Its now the 19th March, and I've received another letter from ZZPS (dated the 15th March) now stating:
    "Our next course of action is to pass this account to the law firm QDR solicitors Limited. We would prefer to get to the bottom of this with you, without the need to use lawyers. However we are duty bound to advise you you that if this does get passed to solicitors, the balance owing will be increased by a further 36"

    At what point does the 6 months bit come into play, with is the 20th March in this case? Is that the point of referring to solicitors? At what point are ZZPS allowed to give details to either the solicitors or the Railway company (the client)...

    Do I just still ignore?

    Thanks
    • Redx
    • By Redx 19th Mar 18, 8:39 PM
    • 20,477 Posts
    • 25,827 Thanks
    Redx
    the 6 months rule is for MAGS court, which isnt going to happen

    the debt collectors are using a ruse stating they willl pass it to solicitors, which they cannot do as they are not the claimant, INDIGO are the claimant

    QDR is believed to be just another desk in the ZZPS office, or maybe a solicitors that they cannot pass it to as they are not the primary claimant, INDIGO are (although reallly its the TOC in a bylaws case)

    I doubt that ZZPS are allowed to pass the DVLA keeper info onto INDIGO or the TOC

    the TOC are not going to deal with it under the bylaws

    and as its a bylaws case INDIGO cannot progress it either

    its awell documented scam you are caught up in so I suggest you read maybe TWENTY or more railway station threads and try to learn the differences between a magistrates court and a penalty under bylaws, compared to civil court and contract law for a parking charge notice

    yes its complicated, but you did ask so do the reading

    so ZZPS cannot pass those details to the solicitors, nor to a railway company (to answer those questions)

    the 6 months rule is for a bylaw breach , by the TOC, in Magistrates court

    the contract law issues do not apply, despite what the lying debt collectors are claiming

    you are being REACTIVE instead of PROACTIVE

    you have had several weeks to read over a dozen other INDIGO threads on here to get your head around their smoke and mirrors sc@m

    IGNORE
    Last edited by Redx; 19-03-2018 at 8:47 PM.
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • jph572
    • By jph572 19th Mar 18, 8:52 PM
    • 11 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    jph572
    Thanks Redx.

    Ignore it I will.....
    • Redx
    • By Redx 19th Mar 18, 8:55 PM
    • 20,477 Posts
    • 25,827 Thanks
    Redx
    the real question you should have asked (although its answered in dozens of other INDIGO station threads) is

    Can a debt collector employ solicitors to take me the KEEPER to Magistrates Court for a bylaws offence at a train station car park within (or even after) 6 months

    ANSWER - no , definitely not

    Can a bylaws penalty charge be actioned in a Civil Court ? - No , definitely not

    can a debt collector pass on my personal data obtained from the DVLA to anyone else despite the DPA laws ? - ANSWER , NO , definitely not
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 19th Mar 18, 9:22 PM
    • 64,896 Posts
    • 77,478 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Already discussed here:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5807409

    Complain when you get the next letter (past the 6 months), to:

    your MP

    Sir Greg Knight
    (he of the parking Bill you will have read about on the forum, we hope)

    The BPA

    The DVLA

    The ICO

    Trading Standards


    Saying that Indigo cannot have their cake and eat it, as explained here, it's either a penalty (done & dusted after 6 months, if not laid before Magistrates, as set out in the Magistrates' Court Act) or it's a parking charge where POPLA was required).

    They cannot duck both options, deny POPLA (offered on the back of the PCN) and continue to harass motorists:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=74012254#post74012254

    Do not let it lie, once they write to you after the 6 months, stand up and be counted.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 19-03-2018 at 9:25 PM.
    • jph572
    • By jph572 12th Apr 18, 8:13 PM
    • 11 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    jph572
    Hi All

    Now received the letter from QDR Solicitors, stating that I now have 14 days to pay the 182.

    Now with the threat of of the Car park Operator take me through criminal court proceedings and that I would need to attend a magistrates court...

    Should I in any way acknowledge this letter or just ignore?

    Thanks
    • Castle
    • By Castle 12th Apr 18, 8:17 PM
    • 2,136 Posts
    • 2,852 Thanks
    Castle
    Hi All

    Now received the letter from QDR Solicitors, stating that I now have 14 days to pay the 182.

    Now with the threat of of the Car park Operator take me through criminal court proceedings and that I would need to attend a magistrates court...

    Should I in any way acknowledge this letter or just ignore?

    Thanks
    Originally posted by jph572
    Well the 6 months timed out on 20th March 2018 so if you could post up a copy, (redacted as necessary), it should prove interesting reading.
    • waamo
    • By waamo 12th Apr 18, 8:29 PM
    • 4,925 Posts
    • 6,373 Thanks
    waamo
    Well the 6 months timed out on 20th March 2018 so if you could post up a copy, (redacted as necessary), it should prove interesting reading.
    Originally posted by Castle
    I would reply telling them it's timed out and they can go swivel.
    This space for hire.
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 12th Apr 18, 8:58 PM
    • 11,416 Posts
    • 11,945 Thanks
    KeithP
    You appear not to have seen post #15.
    .
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 12th Apr 18, 9:38 PM
    • 4,202 Posts
    • 5,033 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    Post a copy up. It would suggest a complaint is due to the SRA.
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