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  • FIRST POST
    • MSE Megan F
    • By MSE Megan F 13th Feb 18, 5:34 PM
    • 283Posts
    • 152Thanks
    MSE Megan F
    MSE News: EE to increase monthly prices by 4.1%
    • #1
    • 13th Feb 18, 5:34 PM
    MSE News: EE to increase monthly prices by 4.1% 13th Feb 18 at 5:34 PM
    EE is to increase the cost of its monthly mobile contracts by 4.1% for millions of customers - just one month after it hiked some broadband and line rental costs...
    Read the full story:
    'EE to increase monthly prices by 4.1%''

    Click reply below to discuss. If you haven!!!8217;t already, join the forum to reply.
    Last edited by MSE Megan F; 13-02-2018 at 6:09 PM.
    Read the latest MSE News
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Page 3
    • Oxy1
    • By Oxy1 24th Feb 18, 5:59 PM
    • 10 Posts
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    Oxy1
    "This forums". I can read well enough to cringe at that.
    Originally posted by mobilejunkie
    If you have plenty of time to waste you could reread your own posts, some of them have much worse grammatical errors to the extent that it is difficult to understand what it is you are trying to say.

    Better still, if you are affected by the price rises and think they were not fair, you can follow my advice. If you do, you might find yourself with a deadlock letter that you have found so difficult to obtain yourself.

    Your main thrust was about your case to the Ombudman. Stupid points like they "exaggerated inflation measure RPI instead of CPI" is an example of complete nonsense.
    Originally posted by mobilejunkie
    You picked the weakest of a large number points. And yet, Bank of England, in particular, uses CPI as the inflation measure to target. So Bank of England uses CPI and EE are using RPI that by design will almost always be considerably higher than CPI.
    • boatman
    • By boatman 24th Feb 18, 9:12 PM
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    boatman
    To be fair I know where mobilejunkie is coming from, EE never used to issue deadlock letters, I would guess in the last couple of years they have been spoken to by OFCOM. I think the point about CPI is valid and they should be encouraged, if not forced to use it, but in the context of complaining about the RPI rise is not something you could use. Sadly OFCOM decided, wrongly in my opinion to allow an RPI increase in to mobile contracts, if companies want to use it, it needs to be implemented in a way that it is clear, certainly in the case of EE its not clear.
    • eDicky
    • By eDicky 24th Feb 18, 9:39 PM
    • 3,397 Posts
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    eDicky
    My complaint that the effective increase in the monthly cost of my plan is 13% instead of 4.1% was escalated within minutes to an Executive Care Team member, who declined to offer any remedy, and when I told him I would need to take it further he prepared my deadlock letter the same day, Monday 19th, and I received it Wednesday.

    So they seem to be doing this without delay, if they don't offer any suitable concession, as they seem to have done with someone on the other thread.

    Today I finally got around to sending my complaint to the Ombudsmen Service, based mainly on the fact that the original price without discount of the plan that I am on was never mentioned to me when I signed up to the discounted price, and at the same time agreed to the annual RPI increase on that.discounted price specifically.
    • Oxy1
    • By Oxy1 25th Feb 18, 10:44 AM
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    Oxy1
    My complaint that the effective increase in the monthly cost of my plan is 13% instead of 4.1% was escalated within minutes to an Executive Care Team member, who declined to offer any remedy, and when I told him I would need to take it further he prepared my deadlock letter the same day, Monday 19th, and I received it Wednesday.

    So they seem to be doing this without delay, if they don't offer any suitable concession, as they seem to have done with someone on the other thread.

    Today I finally got around to sending my complaint to the Ombudsmen Service, based mainly on the fact that the original price without discount of the plan that I am on was never mentioned to me when I signed up to the discounted price, and at the same time agreed to the annual RPI increase on that.discounted price specifically.
    Originally posted by eDicky

    If the new Consumer Rights Act has not materially changed this particular provision then I believe the above case could be extremely helpful to anyone who had an EE price increase. Even to those who have been with EE for more than a year and have no "discount" and hence those for whom application of the offending terms is least unfair.

    The reason for the above is that (at least under older legislation - I will need to check it has been absorbed into the new act without significant curtailment in this respect) if a particular term could be draconian in some cases, even hypothetical, then it could be ruled to be unfair and null and void in all cases - even in those when it is not particularly draconian. The above example shows that the offending term is not only capable of being interpreted in a very draconian way, but has in fact has been so interpreted by EE.


    In any case I think it makes perfect sense to take to ombudsmen even if the particular ombudsmen is a joke as I understand EE will have to pay a case fee, hopefully for every case. Does anyone know how much is it? I think if even 5% of people affected would take it to the ombudsmen EE would just give up.
    • boatman
    • By boatman 25th Feb 18, 12:33 PM
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    boatman
    If the new Consumer Rights Act has not materially changed this particular provision then I believe the above case could be extremely helpful to anyone who had an EE price increase. Even to those who have been with EE for more than a year and have no "discount" and hence those for whom application of the offending terms is least unfair.

    The reason for the above is that (at least under older legislation - I will need to check it has been absorbed into the new act without significant curtailment in this respect) if a particular term could be draconian in some cases, even hypothetical, then it could be ruled to be unfair and null and void in all cases - even in those when it is not particularly draconian. The above example shows that the offending term is not only capable of being interpreted in a very draconian way, but has in fact has been so interpreted by EE.


    In any case I think it makes perfect sense to take to ombudsmen even if the particular ombudsmen is a joke as I understand EE will have to pay a case fee, hopefully for every case. Does anyone know how much is it? I think if even 5% of people affected would take it to the ombudsmen EE would just give up.
    Originally posted by Oxy1
    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/schedule/2/enacted
    Have a look, it shows a list of terms which may be regarded as unfair.
    • NittyGritty
    • By NittyGritty 26th Feb 18, 12:45 PM
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    NittyGritty
    i too have received my deadlock letter from EE, days after complaining about the Lack of mention in the terms refuring to (where in the terms does it state the RPI increase should be based on the non discounted price of your price plan rather than the discounted price you currently pay)


    my question is whats the best way or points to use to take it to the ombudsman


    anyone have any other good points to use in my complaint to them which are relavant?
    • boatman
    • By boatman 26th Feb 18, 5:10 PM
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    boatman
    i too have received my deadlock letter from EE, days after complaining about the Lack of mention in the terms refuring to (where in the terms does it state the RPI increase should be based on the non discounted price of your price plan rather than the discounted price you currently pay)


    my question is whats the best way or points to use to take it to the ombudsman


    anyone have any other good points to use in my complaint to them which are relavant?
    Originally posted by NittyGritty
    I think the basis of your claim is that EE do not make it clear in the contract how the rpi increase is applied. State the terms in the consumer rights act(Price variation clauses Schedule 2, Part 1, paragraphs 14 and 15) how it states that if EE chose to use rpi it needs to be clear how it is applied, explain that you do not believe it is. Also use the info CMA37(5.23 onward, page 105). I would also state that according to CMA37, the use of price variation terms in a short contract is somewhat of a grey area anyway, the fact they have not made it clear just makes it worse. The increase should be applied to the negotiated price you actually pay.
    Last edited by boatman; 26-02-2018 at 5:36 PM. Reason: pp
    • overpricedcoffee
    • By overpricedcoffee 26th Feb 18, 5:36 PM
    • 31 Posts
    • 14 Thanks
    overpricedcoffee
    Watching this thread with interest, good luck guys!
    • musicmonkey1
    • By musicmonkey1 28th Feb 18, 10:48 PM
    • 30 Posts
    • 20 Thanks
    musicmonkey1
    Ofcom Guidance
    Ofcom guidance says this:




    A1.10 Ofcom is likely to treat any price increase4 to the agreed core subscription price (however constructed and described in the contract terms)5 during the fixed term of a telecommunications contract as a modification that is of, or is likely to be of, material detriment to consumer and small business subscribers for the purposes of GC9.6.6 7 The core subscription price is one of the most important factors in the subscriberís choice of contract. It is likely to be the most important aspect of one of the key terms of the contract. There is likely to be a significant possibility that the subscriber would not have entered into that contract had they been bound to pay a different price to that they agreed.
    A1.11 Accordingly, in the event of any such increase to the agreed core subscription price, Ofcom is likely to take the view that the relevant subscribers should be given the rights provided for by GC9.6. That is:



    • to be given at least one monthís notice of the price increase and of their ability to terminate the contract without penalty if the proposed increase is unacceptable; and
    • to be allowed to withdraw from their contract without penalty if they choose to exercise that right.







    • They even give an example which says this:



      • Example 1: discretionary price increases
        The subscriber agrees and enters into a 24-month contract for services on terms that the core subscription price will be £10 per month. The contract also contains a term to the effect that the CP may increase the agreed core subscription price8 by up to a certain amount, percentage or index-linked level (such as RPI).9 Ofcom is likely to treat any exercise of the discretion to increase this agreed price during the fixed minimum term of the contract as a modification meeting GC9.6ís material detriment requirement.
      It seems to me that this is pretty unequivocable. Ofcom's own guidance states that these RPI increases even when contracted are a material detriment and subscribers should be given the option to leave with no penalty. However just try getting Ofcom or their adjudicator to support a claim against your mobile phone provider. I tried ---- and failed. I have now written to Ofcom's Chief Executive about it - I'm not hopeful the above guidance will be applied it seems that mobile phone providers are being allowed to stick it to the little guy.
    • boatman
    • By boatman 1st Mar 18, 12:38 AM
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    boatman
    • It seems to me that this is pretty unequivocable. Ofcom's own guidance states that these RPI increases even when contracted are a material detriment and subscribers should be given the option to leave with no penalty. However just try getting Ofcom or their adjudicator to support a claim against your mobile phone provider. I tried ---- and failed. I have now written to Ofcom's Chief Executive about it - I'm not hopeful the above guidance will be applied it seems that mobile phone providers are being allowed to stick it to the little guy.
    Originally posted by musicmonkey1
    OFCOM are effectively allowing the networks to run with this example:

    Example 3: agreed prices
    The subscriber agrees and enters into a 24-month contract on terms that the agreed core subscription price will be £X per month for the first 12-months (or some other period) and £X + RPI 10 for the second 12-months (or some other period). On the basis that the relevant price terms are sufficiently prominent and transparent
    that the subscriber can properly be said to have agreed on an informed basis, at the point of sale, to the relevant tiered price(s), Ofcom would not regard the application of the agreed price in the second period as a modification of the contract capable of meeting GC9.6's material detriment requirement.

    The crucial point being 'prominent and transparent'.
    The problem with the EE and Vodafone contracts with regard to the RPi increase is that it is neither of those things. In EE's case it says in the contract 'the price you pay', which can be interpreted as the final amount including a discount.
    Last edited by boatman; 01-03-2018 at 12:42 AM. Reason: ii
    • pmduk
    • By pmduk 1st Mar 18, 11:20 AM
    • 8,331 Posts
    • 6,144 Thanks
    pmduk

    Does anyone know which of the two ombudsman services is most likely to be helpful.
    Originally posted by MKB
    There are two ombudsmen services covering the Communications industry. EE have chosen to use Ombudsman Services: Communications. It is their choice, not yours.
    • timbouk
    • By timbouk 2nd Mar 18, 8:26 PM
    • 242 Posts
    • 46 Thanks
    timbouk
    I think the basis of your claim is that EE do not make it clear in the contract how the rpi increase is applied. State the terms in the consumer rights act(Price variation clauses Schedule 2, Part 1, paragraphs 14 and 15) how it states that if EE chose to use rpi it needs to be clear how it is applied, explain that you do not believe it is. Also use the info CMA37(5.23 onward, page 105). I would also state that according to CMA37, the use of price variation terms in a short contract is somewhat of a grey area anyway, the fact they have not made it clear just makes it worse. The increase should be applied to the negotiated price you actually pay.
    Originally posted by boatman
    It's perfectly clear in their T&C's how they SHOULD calculate the RPI increases, just read the definitions of all the words they use:

    Your 'Price Plan Charge' and the Charges for Additional Commitment Services include an annual price increase, which will be the annual percentage increase in the Retail Price Index (RPI) published by the Office for National Statistics

    The wording definitions show:

    'Price Plan Charge'; the charge for the 'Price Plan Service', which comprises the 'Monthly Charge' for the Price Plan

    !!!8216;Price Plan Service'; the inclusive Services supplied with Your Price Plan, the charges, types of calls You can make, messages You can send, data You can use and details of any other Services and other terms and conditions for which are set out in the Plan Price Guide for that Price Plan;

    !!!8216;Monthly Charge'
    The amount that You pay each month in advance for Your Price Plan Service


    The key wording is ".. that YOU PAY each month....."
    Perfectly clear that the RPI should be based on the discounted price.
    Last edited by timbouk; 02-03-2018 at 8:33 PM.
    • boatman
    • By boatman 3rd Mar 18, 11:00 AM
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    boatman
    It's perfectly clear in their T&C's how they SHOULD calculate the RPI increases,

    The key wording is ".. that YOU PAY each month....."
    Perfectly clear that the RPI should be based on the discounted price.
    Originally posted by timbouk
    I agree with you, but clearly EE think differently. I think OFCOM need to clarify it, when I spoke to them they said it was the full tariff price, which to me is wrong, unless they do its down to individual cases which is just not right.
    • eDicky
    • By eDicky 3rd Mar 18, 11:39 AM
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    eDicky
    I agree with you, but clearly EE think differently. I think OFCOM need to clarify it, when I spoke to them they said it was the full tariff price, which to me is wrong, unless they do its down to individual cases which is just not right.
    Originally posted by boatman
    Yes, it appears that EE are agreeing with and giving resolution to some who ask for the RPI increase to be calculated on their discounted price, yet with others (including myself) they insist that it's based on the original price and issue a deadlock letter. Totally inconsistent.
    • eDicky
    • By eDicky 5th Mar 18, 5:06 PM
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    eDicky
    My complaint that the effective increase in the monthly cost of my plan is 13% instead of 4.1% was escalated within minutes to an Executive Care Team member, who declined to offer any remedy, and when I told him I would need to take it further he prepared my deadlock letter the same day, Monday 19th, and I received it Wednesday.

    So they seem to be doing this without delay, if they don't offer any suitable concession, as they seem to have done with someone on the other thread.

    Today I finally got around to sending my complaint to the Ombudsmen Service, based mainly on the fact that the original price without discount of the plan that I am on was never mentioned to me when I signed up to the discounted price, and at the same time agreed to the annual RPI increase on that.discounted price specifically.
    Originally posted by eDicky
    Here is the result of my above mentioned complaint to Ombudsman Services Communications:

    Dear Mr eDicky

    Your complaint about EE

    We recently accepted your complaint against EE for investigation.

    We contacted EE for its view and it disputed that your complaint falls within Ombudsman Services: Communications terms of reference. These are the rules we have to follow when deciding if we can accept a complaint for investigation. A copy of the terms of reference is available in the governance section of our website, www.ombudsman-services.org/governance-os.html

    We have now reviewed the available information and agree that we will not be able to consider your complaint. The reasons for this are:

    We can confirm that as the RPI is a commercial decision, this is something Ombudsman Services Communications is unable to investigate. Due to this the case will be closed.

    We have told EE and we have closed your case with us. As we cannot continue with the investigation you are now free to follow other routes to try and resolve your complaint.
    -------------------

    Other routes..?
    • pmduk
    • By pmduk 5th Mar 18, 5:41 PM
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    • 6,144 Thanks
    pmduk

    Other routes..?
    Originally posted by eDicky
    Your choices appear to be to either accept you have entered a valid contract or default on said contract and hope for your day in court to argue the point.

    The Ombudsman was never likely to solve this issue for you.
    • MKB
    • By MKB 6th Mar 18, 12:10 AM
    • 63 Posts
    • 18 Thanks
    MKB
    There are two ombudsmen services covering the Communications industry. EE have chosen to use Ombudsman Services: Communications. It is their choice, not yours.
    Originally posted by pmduk
    Why does the part in the EE terms that I quoted (stating that customers who have purchased their device could use the EU Online Dispute Resolution Platform) not apply?

    Although I'm interested to know the answer to that question, in my case my complaint has been resolved. The Executive Office at EE, after listening to the phone call in which I was sold my last contract, agreed to offer me a credit that would more than cover the difference between the 7.9% increase they are applying and the 4.1% increase they are contractually limited to, for the remainder of my contract, at which point I can hopefully negotiate a new deal.
    • MKB
    • By MKB 6th Mar 18, 12:21 AM
    • 63 Posts
    • 18 Thanks
    MKB
    Here is the result of my above mentioned complaint to Ombudsman Services Communications:

    Dear Mr eDicky

    Your complaint about EE

    We recently accepted your complaint against EE for investigation.

    We contacted EE for its view and it disputed that your complaint falls within Ombudsman Services: Communications terms of reference. These are the rules we have to follow when deciding if we can accept a complaint for investigation. A copy of the terms of reference is available in the governance section of our website, www.ombudsman-services.org/governance-os.html

    We have now reviewed the available information and agree that we will not be able to consider your complaint. The reasons for this are:

    We can confirm that as the RPI is a commercial decision, this is something Ombudsman Services Communications is unable to investigate. Due to this the case will be closed.

    We have told EE and we have closed your case with us. As we cannot continue with the investigation you are now free to follow other routes to try and resolve your complaint.
    Originally posted by eDicky
    The part bolded is quite shocking if reported accurately. Firstly, it makes no sense. How can a price index be a decision? Secondly, if what the Ombudsman is trying to say is that the decision to raise prices by RPI is a commercial one, that is completely irrelevant as it is not what eDicky is complaining about. The complaint is that EE is breaching the contract by increasing prices well in excess of the 4.1% RPI.

    This suggests to me that this Ombudsman is either (a) not independent and deliberately using spurious obstacles to block complainants, or (b) pretty stupid.
    • pmduk
    • By pmduk 6th Mar 18, 9:00 AM
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    pmduk
    Why does the part in the EE terms that I quoted (stating that customers who have purchased their device could use the EU Online Dispute Resolution Platform) not apply?
    Originally posted by MKB
    It just isn't necessary for UK customers, you can complain directly to the relevant ADR if it is a case they can consider. On this occasion, the ADR, (Ombudsman Services: Communications, has decided it cannot investigate what it considers a business decision by EE. OS:C is notorious for usually sticking to the letter of the contact.

    Complaining via the EU Online Dispute Resolution Platform would forward your complaint to the identical destination.

    I'm glad, however, you've got the matter sorted.
    • boatman
    • By boatman 6th Mar 18, 11:23 AM
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    • 2,790 Thanks
    boatman
    The part bolded is quite shocking if reported accurately. Firstly, it makes no sense. How can a price index be a decision? Secondly, if what the Ombudsman is trying to say is that the decision to raise prices by RPI is a commercial one, that is completely irrelevant as it is not what eDicky is complaining about. The complaint is that EE is breaching the contract by increasing prices well in excess of the 4.1% RPI.

    This suggests to me that this Ombudsman is either (a) not independent and deliberately using spurious obstacles to block complainants, or (b) pretty stupid.
    Originally posted by MKB
    I agree, the complaint is about EE's application of their terms, or lack of it, not that they have applied an RPI increase. CISAS said the same thing a few years ago with T-mobile RPI increase, but I complained and they then accepted my claim, perhaps you need to reword it.
    EE have defined that the RPI increase is applied to the 'price you pay', but that is not what they are doing. Under the rules they are allowed to apply an RPI increase, provided it is 'prominent and transparent', your argument is that it is not.
    Last edited by boatman; 06-03-2018 at 11:45 AM. Reason: ii
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