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    • moneyistooshorttomention
    • By moneyistooshorttomention 12th Feb 18, 12:53 PM
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    moneyistooshorttomention
    The Mandela Effect
    • #1
    • 12th Feb 18, 12:53 PM
    The Mandela Effect 12th Feb 18 at 12:53 PM
    I've been reading about this recently and it's down to different people having different memories about the exact same event.

    Called the Mandela Effect because some people remember Nelson Mandela as having died in prison in the 1980s and others remember him as dying in 5 December 2013.

    Loads of stuff about it on YouTube (as you can imagine - as there's some pretty wacky stuff on there....).

    But a second incident happened recently of someone remembering things differently to myself (ie they remember me as having sent them a Facebook message with a query - but I definitely didnt). So I checked Facebook messages - and that confirmed I definitely didnt do so.

    A more "major" example was about a "shared history" event with a (now former) friend. We had a shared episode a few years back and I commented to her about it for the second time ever and she totally denied it had been that way and said "No it happened like x - not like y as you are saying". Now I'd made a comment about that incident (a social occasion) to her once before and she'd agreed with me about it and we'd both had a laugh remembering it. But the second time - she categorically denied it and said things had happened differently. I'm thoroughly puzzled as to why she did that and hence wondering if there is such a thing as the Mandela Effect.

    On the other hand - many of the people I know are in same agegroup as myself (ie 60's) or older - and I'm wondering if that is what is causing them to remember things differently to what actually really happened.

    Has anyone experienced the Mandela Effect? If so - do you think it's down to Cern altering timelines (which is what most people seem to reckon) or what?

    I'm rather assuming that I should just regard this sort of incident as down to the agegroup of most of the people I know - and some peoples memories are failing and they are mis-remembering. But just a bit curious....
    Last edited by moneyistooshorttomention; 12-02-2018 at 12:56 PM.
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Page 1
    • fairy lights
    • By fairy lights 12th Feb 18, 12:59 PM
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    fairy lights
    • #2
    • 12th Feb 18, 12:59 PM
    • #2
    • 12th Feb 18, 12:59 PM
    But a second incident happened recently of someone remembering things differently to myself (ie they remember me as having sent them a Facebook message with a query - but I definitely didnt). So I checked Facebook messages - and that confirmed I definitely didnt do so.
    Originally posted by moneyistooshorttomention
    The Mandela effect is about collective false memories though so wouldn't really apply to two individuals having different recollections of an event.
    • indesisiv
    • By indesisiv 12th Feb 18, 1:13 PM
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    indesisiv
    • #3
    • 12th Feb 18, 1:13 PM
    • #3
    • 12th Feb 18, 1:13 PM
    Human memory is terrible at remembering things as they happened!

    Just look into some of the stuff like regression, or the experiments into memory. Where at one point you ask people to recall something that didn't happen, but by the time you ask again a month or 2 later they remember the entire incident .. even though it actually never happened.

    I'd give the references to the studies but I don't have time atm to look them up but its a fairly common occurrence.
    Which is why historical events such as historical sexual abuse is so hard because people can actually remember things that didn't happen.

    Starting point: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-24286258
    “Time is intended to be spent, not saved” - Alfred Wainwright
    • moneyistooshorttomention
    • By moneyistooshorttomention 12th Feb 18, 1:15 PM
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    moneyistooshorttomention
    • #4
    • 12th Feb 18, 1:15 PM
    • #4
    • 12th Feb 18, 1:15 PM
    I see your point - but would assume that - it either happens or it doesnt and that could be at both individual and collective level.
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    • moneyistooshorttomention
    • By moneyistooshorttomention 12th Feb 18, 2:05 PM
    • 15,286 Posts
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    moneyistooshorttomention
    • #5
    • 12th Feb 18, 2:05 PM
    • #5
    • 12th Feb 18, 2:05 PM
    Human memory is terrible at remembering things as they happened!

    Just look into some of the stuff like regression, or the experiments into memory. Where at one point you ask people to recall something that didn't happen, but by the time you ask again a month or 2 later they remember the entire incident .. even though it actually never happened.

    I'd give the references to the studies but I don't have time atm to look them up but its a fairly common occurrence.
    Which is why historical events such as historical sexual abuse is so hard because people can actually remember things that didn't happen.

    Starting point: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-24286258
    Originally posted by indesisiv
    I can get that that is possible.

    I have one memory that may/may not be a "false memory" to my knowledge.

    Back as a very young child I recall sitting up in one of the "boxes" at a theatre watching a ballet performance.

    Now I know (ie in this current life) that that is most unlikely to have really happened (ie as there simply wasn't the money/background there for going to watch ballets as I was being brought up). Personally - I think "That may or may not have happened - and I suspect it really did happen - but in a previous (better off) lifetime to my current lifetime".

    That's because I personally believe in reincarnation - and so there is a possibility that this is indeed a real memory - but not from this (much poorer) lifetime iyswim.

    But the two events I'm referring to are, respectively, in the last few weeks and the last few years of this lifetime.
    Last edited by moneyistooshorttomention; 12-02-2018 at 2:08 PM.
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    • AubreyMac
    • By AubreyMac 12th Feb 18, 2:24 PM
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    AubreyMac
    • #6
    • 12th Feb 18, 2:24 PM
    • #6
    • 12th Feb 18, 2:24 PM
    It's differing perspectives as well. I saw a picture once of 2 people standing facing each other with a no 6 in the middle. The one standing on top can see a no 9. now both are right but both just have different perspectives to the same thing.


    Of course when it comes to incidents and events, without having cctv or the like to re-watch things for accuracy, it can be difficult to recall things with precision and order. If it was a disturbing event then shock and trauma can distort the memory.


    And then one person at least could also be in denial about things too, emotions such as guilt and fear could promote denial.


    This often makes me question the use of witnesses as evidence.


    About a couple of years ago there was a bbc programme about this and a group of volunteers witnessed an argument that escalated into a fight between a builder and some other guy in a pub while the volunteers were having lunch (the fight was a set up but the volunteers didn't know this) the victim 'died' and all those volunteers had to give statements to the police. One of the volunteers saw the builder stabbed the other guy with a screwdriver, she even described the colour of it too. Reality is that no screwdriver was used but experts concluded that she associated a screwdriver with the builder as that was the only way she could make sense of it.
    • indesisiv
    • By indesisiv 12th Feb 18, 2:48 PM
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    indesisiv
    • #7
    • 12th Feb 18, 2:48 PM
    • #7
    • 12th Feb 18, 2:48 PM
    @moneyistooshorttomention I am not thinking something with no evidence like past life regression. (Which in my view is a good example of memory making things up to fit)

    As I say the problem with memory is that you can actually get people to remember things which definitely didn't happen to them and couldn't have happened to them.

    @AubreyMac
    I am more interested in memory from an aspect that is not just from different perspectives.
    Part of the problem with witnesses in cases is that with a bit of leading / recalling with others it is quite possible to have people believe that something happened when it quite clearly couldn't have happened that way. That's why I worry with a lot of these historical rape cases, there are clearly cases where it can't have happened because the people in question can prove that they were not there, but the person that accused them remembers in detail exactly what happened. Despite the fact that it could never have happened iyswim.
    “Time is intended to be spent, not saved” - Alfred Wainwright
    • Jackmydad
    • By Jackmydad 12th Feb 18, 3:09 PM
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    Jackmydad
    • #8
    • 12th Feb 18, 3:09 PM
    • #8
    • 12th Feb 18, 3:09 PM
    It's differing perspectives as well. I saw a picture once of 2 people standing facing each other with a no 6 in the middle. The one standing on top can see a no 9. now both are right but both just have different perspectives to the same thing.


    Of course when it comes to incidents and events, without having cctv or the like to re-watch things for accuracy, it can be difficult to recall things with precision and order. If it was a disturbing event then shock and trauma can distort the memory.


    And then one person at least could also be in denial about things too, emotions such as guilt and fear could promote denial.


    This often makes me question the use of witnesses as evidence.


    About a couple of years ago there was a bbc programme about this and a group of volunteers witnessed an argument that escalated into a fight between a builder and some other guy in a pub while the volunteers were having lunch (the fight was a set up but the volunteers didn't know this) the victim 'died' and all those volunteers had to give statements to the police. One of the volunteers saw the builder stabbed the other guy with a screwdriver, she even described the colour of it too. Reality is that no screwdriver was used but experts concluded that she associated a screwdriver with the builder as that was the only way she could make sense of it.
    Originally posted by AubreyMac
    There's a novel from the 70s, I think it's "The Spoilers" by Desmond Bagley. The main characters are (IIRC) trying to break up a drugs cartel, and set up a "sting" type operation to get information.
    At the end of it they "kill" one of their own number by "shooting him" with a blank, and he "coughs up blood" from a balloon hidden in his mouth. The premise is that the death adds confusion and it will be difficult for the person being "stung" to remember anything clearly as they will keep "seeing" what they thought was a killing.
    • AubreyMac
    • By AubreyMac 12th Feb 18, 3:44 PM
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    AubreyMac
    • #9
    • 12th Feb 18, 3:44 PM
    • #9
    • 12th Feb 18, 3:44 PM

    @AubreyMac
    I am more interested in memory from an aspect that is not just from different perspectives.
    Part of the problem with witnesses in cases is that with a bit of leading / recalling with others it is quite possible to have people believe that something happened when it quite clearly couldn't have happened that way. That's why I worry with a lot of these historical rape cases, there are clearly cases where it can't have happened because the people in question can prove that they were not there, but the person that accused them remembers in detail exactly what happened. Despite the fact that it could never have happened iyswim.
    Originally posted by indesisiv




    When you say ‘it could never have happened’ do you mean with solid evidence? Such as I accuse you of burgling my home last Wednesday but you can prove you were in Timbuctoo at the time etc?



    With past events such as historical rape, as something like that would be traumatic it is possible the mind/memory can mix things up in the same way we all can mix days and details up if we are not mindful. E.g. if we can’t remember the last time we bought milk, we will dig into our logic and try to recall the last time we went supermarket instead then put that down as a ‘must’ve been’ date we last bought milk and will accept that as fact.


    Our knowledge on what’s real or possible can force us to ‘get real’. Someone who knows no better may see a sleight-of-hand magic trick and will be convinced they saw the magician rip a card in half and put it back together by just clicking his fingers. To that person what they witnessed was the absolute truth, but to most of us we know magic tricks are just an illusion.
    • pollypenny
    • By pollypenny 12th Feb 18, 3:55 PM
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    pollypenny
    OH and I are like Maurice Chevalier and whoever with that song, I Remember it Well.

    He is wrong btw!
    Member #14 of SKI-ers club

    Words, words, they're all we have to go by!.

    (Pity they are mangled by this autocorrect!)
    • moneyistooshorttomention
    • By moneyistooshorttomention 12th Feb 18, 4:02 PM
    • 15,286 Posts
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    moneyistooshorttomention
    So - so far it's boiling down to (recent) acquaintance's memory of a non-existent (as I checked) Facebook message from me and former friend's differing memory of a social event we were both in as a case of them having "false memory" for whatever reason.

    I've been puzzling and puzzling about having been fed a different version to what actually really happened by that former friend and thinking "Maybe it's gaslighting? Maybe she's got dementia starting to set in?". It was still frustrating to have someone swearing "black is white" at me.....though friendship broke up for a different reason (ie they thought it was perfectly okay to play "ducks and drakes" with my welfare).
    Last edited by moneyistooshorttomention; 12-02-2018 at 4:05 PM.
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    • marcus ohreallius
    • By marcus ohreallius 12th Feb 18, 4:45 PM
    • 257 Posts
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    marcus ohreallius
    The older you get, the more memories you'll accrue, and also memories of memories. Possibly all the more so, when people watch telly or they watch stuff on the internet, and that (in their mind's memory) becomes 'real' to them so they may be remembering things that either didn't happen or that happened at a different time.

    Anyway, I'm waffling. Basically, human memory is very very fallible, as someone pointed out.
    • JamesO
    • By JamesO 12th Feb 18, 5:53 PM
    • 353 Posts
    • 956 Thanks
    JamesO
    Has anyone experienced the Mandela Effect? If so - do you think it's down to Cern altering timelines (which is what most people seem to reckon) or what?
    Originally posted by moneyistooshorttomention
    This often makes me question the use of witnesses as evidence.
    Originally posted by AubreyMac
    Last edited by JamesO; 12-02-2018 at 5:56 PM.
    ____________
    Blue Lives Matter
    • zagubov
    • By zagubov 12th Feb 18, 10:32 PM
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    zagubov
    It's just a glitch in the matrix, isn't it
    There is no honour to be had in not knowing a thing that can be known - Danny Baker
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