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    • Trevor84
    • By Trevor84 12th Feb 18, 11:58 AM
    • 7Posts
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    Trevor84
    Elderly parent / selling her house
    • #1
    • 12th Feb 18, 11:58 AM
    Elderly parent / selling her house 12th Feb 18 at 11:58 AM
    My mother-in-law in currently in a care home. We have got Power of Attorney and we need to sell her house to pay for her care as her savings won't last long. We would like her to come & live with us but we haven't got the room at present.
    My mother-in-law has always wanted to come & live with us. How could we legally use some of the money from the sale of her house to move into a bigger home so we can look after her and not have to pay care home fees?
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    • Nobbie1967
    • By Nobbie1967 12th Feb 18, 12:16 PM
    • 734 Posts
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    Nobbie1967
    • #2
    • 12th Feb 18, 12:16 PM
    • #2
    • 12th Feb 18, 12:16 PM
    Does your MIL still have capacity to make decisions?
    • G_M
    • By G_M 12th Feb 18, 12:26 PM
    • 43,847 Posts
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    G_M
    • #3
    • 12th Feb 18, 12:26 PM
    • #3
    • 12th Feb 18, 12:26 PM
    As POA you need to be very careful not to confuse her assets with yours.

    For various reasons

    1) duty of care. You must
    a) protect her assets (ie not take them over!) as well as
    b) use them in her best interests (which I agree may be for her to live with you)

    2) Inheritance
    Things could get even more complex if you are not her sole Beneficiaries of her will. On her death, any other Beneficiary could claim
    a) they want their share (you might have to sell the property)
    b) you've failed to do 1a) abve thus reducing her Estate and depriving the other Beneficiary/ies

    3) Deprivation of Assets
    If she later had to go back into a care home, the money she'd put into this new property would either be
    a) hers (eg a joiintly owned property) in which case she's not qualify for LA funding or
    b) yours ((eg the property was rigistered entirley in your name, based on a 'gift' by her) in which case D of As would apply

    You need specialist advice. My guess is you could jointly purchase a property, as Tenants in Common, with a professional Deed drawn up defining who owned what %, but you'd need to consider the future possible care home issues.
    • lisyloo
    • By lisyloo 12th Feb 18, 12:27 PM
    • 21,729 Posts
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    lisyloo
    • #4
    • 12th Feb 18, 12:27 PM
    • #4
    • 12th Feb 18, 12:27 PM
    We would like her to come & live with us
    I don't know your MIL needs but they will probably increase. People who I know have done this have said it was much more work than they envisaged.

    I don't see why you couldn't get a mortgage with your MIL on the deeds.
    For example if she contributes 30% then she can be named on the deeds as owning 30%.
    This way she still retains her assets in her own name so passes no money/assets onto you.

    However what happens if (or inevitably) when she deterioates outside of you capacity e.g. needs nursing care?
    You'd need to return her share at that time, so that's a big catch.

    Is she currently in a residential or nursing home?
    If she's been assesed as needing nursing care then how will your replicate this in your home? Is one of you a qualified nurse?

    I don't know your MIL but I think this is a mssive undertaking (my MIL is in a nursing home and needs 24/7 care).
    • need an answer
    • By need an answer 12th Feb 18, 12:29 PM
    • 336 Posts
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    need an answer
    • #5
    • 12th Feb 18, 12:29 PM
    • #5
    • 12th Feb 18, 12:29 PM
    So MIL is currently in a nursing home,presumably because that was deemed the best place for her care needs.

    Without wishing to sound judgemental,what makes you think that you can give her the care she needs at home even if it were in a bigger house simply because she would like to come and live with you.

    I guess you need to think about her medical needs and decide if you are the best placed to care for her 24hours a day.
    What will happen when you want a holiday for example

    Sorry I haven't actually answered the question posed but I cant help but wonder that her needs are greater than you would be able to provide support for

    I have not written this post without a little insight, we tried to keep a parent in their own home as long as possible and had plenty of help to do so, but it became evident that at some point we would need more specialised help and actually them residing in a care home was the best decision all round and led to a very happy time before the end of life.
    I am confident that actually their health improved on entering the care home and after the initial transition it was by far the best thing we all did.
    Last edited by need an answer; 12-02-2018 at 12:33 PM.
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    • saajan_12
    • By saajan_12 12th Feb 18, 12:37 PM
    • 1,210 Posts
    • 838 Thanks
    saajan_12
    • #6
    • 12th Feb 18, 12:37 PM
    • #6
    • 12th Feb 18, 12:37 PM
    Main issue is any money MIL contributes to the new house should still be hers..

    (a) to cover costs of care if her needs exceed what you can provide in house -> would you need to sell your home to release funds?

    (b) to form part of her estate -> can you purchase as tenants in common so her share is clearly defined and no implication of you misappropriating her money and abusing POA
    • Davesnave
    • By Davesnave 12th Feb 18, 12:43 PM
    • 24,825 Posts
    • 92,136 Thanks
    Davesnave
    • #7
    • 12th Feb 18, 12:43 PM
    • #7
    • 12th Feb 18, 12:43 PM
    So MIL is currently in a nursing home.
    Originally posted by need an answer
    OP said a 'care home.' There is quite a difference between that and a nursing home, but we know that one often leads to the other.
    'A society grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they'll never sit in.'
    • Margot123
    • By Margot123 12th Feb 18, 12:53 PM
    • 803 Posts
    • 812 Thanks
    Margot123
    • #8
    • 12th Feb 18, 12:53 PM
    • #8
    • 12th Feb 18, 12:53 PM
    OP said a 'care home.' There is quite a difference between that and a nursing home, but we know that one often leads to the other.
    Originally posted by Davesnave
    By the same token, MIL could be in a care/residential home receiving nursing care.
    • need an answer
    • By need an answer 12th Feb 18, 1:01 PM
    • 336 Posts
    • 397 Thanks
    need an answer
    • #9
    • 12th Feb 18, 1:01 PM
    • #9
    • 12th Feb 18, 1:01 PM
    OP said a 'care home.' There is quite a difference between that and a nursing home, but we know that one often leads to the other.
    Originally posted by Davesnave
    you are correct, there is a difference which I am well aware of,however the fact that the lady requires some assistance and is not independently living would suggest she has perhaps more complex needs than the OP is initially considering.

    Even a complex of sheltered housing provides possibly more stability than living with relatives and all that that situation would entail.

    I doubt that she got to where she is at the moment without some form of social services guidance who would I assume have taken many factors into account before making the decision to place her.

    Perhaps the question is the OP would be prior to her entering the nursing home why did you not put into place the plans you are now suggesting?
    It almost seems as if you now want to backtrack to potentially a level of care that should have been considered first.
    Last edited by need an answer; 12-02-2018 at 1:06 PM.
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    • Trevor84
    • By Trevor84 12th Feb 18, 1:44 PM
    • 7 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    Trevor84
    Does your MIL still have capacity to make decisions?
    Originally posted by Nobbie1967
    She had a serious stroke, but still has mental capacity
    • Trevor84
    • By Trevor84 12th Feb 18, 1:59 PM
    • 7 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    Trevor84
    Thank you for your comments, I knew this one was not a simple answer! I'll try to answer your questions.
    My MIL is currently in a nursing home. If she was to live with us, then my wife would look after her with the help of home care.
    Her property is worth approx 750,000. If we decided to move with my MIL living with us, then we would approx need 150,000 towards the move. This would leave approx 600,000 if she needed to back to a care home.
    Before the stroke she was very independent, but always hinted in the future of living with us.
    • Davesnave
    • By Davesnave 12th Feb 18, 2:02 PM
    • 24,825 Posts
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    Davesnave
    By the same token, MIL could be in a care/residential home receiving nursing care.
    Originally posted by Margot123
    Sometimes, yes.

    My Dad was in a care home, where he received help to take pills on time and assistance with bathing etc, but no real nursing care. It was a worry for me that he would soon require more nursing input, which would have meant him moving.

    I was hoping the OP would clarrify the situation a little, which they have done now.
    'A society grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they'll never sit in.'
    • xylophone
    • By xylophone 12th Feb 18, 2:21 PM
    • 25,187 Posts
    • 14,836 Thanks
    xylophone
    Your MIL currently has mental capacity.


    She has expressed a desire to live with you.

    She has agreed that her house is to be sold.

    As she still has mental capacity, even though you have PoA, and can deal with getting the house on the market etc, you may well find that the conveyancing solicitor will require that she signs the documents of sale.

    This was the experience of a relative of mine who has PoA for a relative of his.

    Once the house is sold, and the money is in an account in your MIL's name, she can, if she chooses, make you a loan of 150,000 towards the purchase of the shared house and take a charge on the property as security.

    You can make regular monthly repayments to another account in her name - she might fund her share of household expenses /pay her carers from this account.

    If she needs to go back into care, the remaining equity from her house together with your repayments of the loan would be used to fund the care.

    You and your mother in law should each take legal advice - it should be possible for you to arrange to transport her to the solicitor's office - alternatively, the solicitor may be prepared to visit her in the care home.

    You should be prepared to refinance the loan in the event that this became necessary.
    • Cheeky_Monkey
    • By Cheeky_Monkey 12th Feb 18, 2:22 PM
    • 1,633 Posts
    • 3,348 Thanks
    Cheeky_Monkey
    OP - is your wife an only child or does she have siblings?
    I used to be indecisive - now I'm not so sure
    • need an answer
    • By need an answer 12th Feb 18, 2:25 PM
    • 336 Posts
    • 397 Thanks
    need an answer
    Thank you for your comments, I knew this one was not a simple answer! I'll try to answer your questions.
    My MIL is currently in a nursing home. If she was to live with us, then my wife would look after her with the help of home care.
    Her property is worth approx 750,000. If we decided to move with my MIL living with us, then we would approx need 150,000 towards the move. This would leave approx 600,000 if she needed to back to a care home.
    Before the stroke she was very independent, but always hinted in the future of living with us.
    Originally posted by Trevor84
    All credit to your wife for being the one to volunteer too look after her mother even with the additional help of home care assistants that's a very tough job!

    What about the rest of the family,what impact will having someone with complex stroke needs have on them going forward?

    And yourself where do you fit into all the plans.

    please think very seriously about the way in which having your MIL living with you will change your lives,and not always for the better even if the property you go on to buy is specially adapted for her needs then there will still be huge personal sacrifices that need to be considered going forward.

    I can't help but think that the care/nursing home route is indeed the best option to take
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    • Trevor84
    • By Trevor84 12th Feb 18, 2:42 PM
    • 7 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    Trevor84
    OP - is your wife an only child or does she have siblings?
    Originally posted by Cheeky_Monkey
    She has a brother, but to cut a long story short, he's pretty much out of the picture.
    • Trevor84
    • By Trevor84 12th Feb 18, 2:52 PM
    • 7 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    Trevor84
    Main issue is any money MIL contributes to the new house should still be hers..

    (b) to form part of her estate -> can you purchase as tenants in common so her share is clearly defined and no implication of you misappropriating her money and abusing POA
    Originally posted by saajan_12
    If we decided to purchase as tenants in common as you mentioned, I would assume inheritance tax would still apply if she died?
    • need an answer
    • By need an answer 12th Feb 18, 2:56 PM
    • 336 Posts
    • 397 Thanks
    need an answer
    Have social services been supportive of your idea to rehome your MIL or is it at present just an idea that you have formed without specifically getting their agreement?
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    • need an answer
    • By need an answer 12th Feb 18, 3:06 PM
    • 336 Posts
    • 397 Thanks
    need an answer
    My MIL is currently in a nursing home. If she was to live with us, then my wife would look after her with the help of home care.
    Originally posted by Trevor84
    You may also want to explore the costing behind this v the cost of full residential care.

    From my experience whilst on the face of it a residential care format looks very expensive when you break the cost down and understand that it represents 24 hr care the price per hour is actually cheaper than employing additional "home help"" when needed.

    Add to that any additional expenses you may incur as part of the household budget for extra heating lighting even additional cost associated with laundry food preparation etc and you may well come to the conclusion that paying a flat fee monthly for round the clock care is actually better value in the long run going forward.

    I can see that potentially even an overnight "home care" could cost almost the same as 3/4 of a day in full time care and once you add in the time your wife spends in assistance I think you may find there is little to gain by going down the self managing route.
    Last edited by need an answer; 12-02-2018 at 3:15 PM.
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    • Cakeguts
    • By Cakeguts 12th Feb 18, 3:13 PM
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    Cakeguts
    She is in a care home because she can't manage at home on her own? If she lives with you she will need 24 hour care which is what you get in a care home. They check on people in the night. If she wants to go to the toilet in the night someone is going to have to take her. Care homes have alarms on cords that you can pull to get the attention of staff in the night. Will your wife be able to lift her on and off the toilet and clean her up in the middle of the night?

    I hope your wife can drive a car that is suitable to take a disabled person otherwise your MIL will be trapped in your house and unable to go out or meet anyone other than you, your wife and any carers. She won't stay in the part of the house that is for her. She will want to sit with you when you watch the television and she will want to choose the programmes. She is already managing to make you feel guilty that she is in a care home just think what she can do when she is living with you?

    The care that she is getting in the care home is the best that she can have. Why do you think you can do better when you have no experience?
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