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  • FIRST POST
    • JohnDunn
    • By JohnDunn 9th Feb 18, 5:16 PM
    • 22Posts
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    JohnDunn
    Advice over 2 PCN's on residential parking
    • #1
    • 9th Feb 18, 5:16 PM
    Advice over 2 PCN's on residential parking 9th Feb 18 at 5:16 PM
    Hi all. I'd really appreciate some advice on some PCN's I recently received from One Parking Solutions. They are the private parking company managing the private parking area where I am currently renting.

    On the first occasion I had forgotten to place my permit on the dash after a period of stress. The second I without realising had had the permit obscured under the tint on the bottom of my car's windscreen.

    I am currently overseas and whilst stressed submitted what was a fairly week appeal to them. They have just rejected it.

    I would really appreciate some advice on the following:

    Should I try an appeal to POPLA for the first PCN?

    Do I take a completely different approach to the second ticket?

    I feel that they are honest errors and I am a permit holder as a resident. I also understand that I have made an error with the second issue, yet it seems quite unfair to be hit with two fines.

    As to be expected I have now a period where each ticket is 60 prior to being 100.

    Some further information - my car is leased so OPS where required to write to the owner, Arval, who sent them my details.

    I can post links to any letters and correspondence.

    Thank you in advance!
Page 1
    • waamo
    • By waamo 9th Feb 18, 5:20 PM
    • 2,991 Posts
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    waamo
    • #2
    • 9th Feb 18, 5:20 PM
    • #2
    • 9th Feb 18, 5:20 PM
    Appeal each ticket individually. Use the templates found in the thread at the top of the forum that tells Newbies to read it first.
    This space for hire.
    • JohnDunn
    • By JohnDunn 9th Feb 18, 5:24 PM
    • 22 Posts
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    JohnDunn
    • #3
    • 9th Feb 18, 5:24 PM
    • #3
    • 9th Feb 18, 5:24 PM
    Thank you waamo. So I should proceed to POPLA with the first response and then commence an appeal again for the second?

    Having read the newbies thread I couldn't decide if I had enough of a case?
    • waamo
    • By waamo 9th Feb 18, 5:32 PM
    • 2,991 Posts
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    waamo
    • #4
    • 9th Feb 18, 5:32 PM
    • #4
    • 9th Feb 18, 5:32 PM
    The cases are decided on legal points. Read some of the examples on here. It isn't about right or wrong it's about technicalities.

    Nearly ever parking company gets something wrong.
    This space for hire.
    • JohnDunn
    • By JohnDunn 9th Feb 18, 5:57 PM
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    JohnDunn
    • #5
    • 9th Feb 18, 5:57 PM
    • #5
    • 9th Feb 18, 5:57 PM
    (In addition, there was no ticket each time, just a yellow and black sticky ticket envelope.)
    • waamo
    • By waamo 9th Feb 18, 6:01 PM
    • 2,991 Posts
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    waamo
    • #6
    • 9th Feb 18, 6:01 PM
    • #6
    • 9th Feb 18, 6:01 PM
    That's a regular trick. Before you send your appeal to POPLA post it here for review.
    This space for hire.
    • JohnDunn
    • By JohnDunn 15th Feb 18, 2:50 PM
    • 22 Posts
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    JohnDunn
    • #7
    • 15th Feb 18, 2:50 PM
    • #7
    • 15th Feb 18, 2:50 PM
    I've realised that in my poor first appeal, I essentially revealed myself as driver.

    It's also a residents parking area, which I have a permit for but the permit is in the landlords name. He's a friend so don't want to cause him hassle.

    Bearing that in mind - am I best to just pay the 60 reduced rate?
    • JohnDunn
    • By JohnDunn 15th Feb 18, 2:53 PM
    • 22 Posts
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    JohnDunn
    • #8
    • 15th Feb 18, 2:53 PM
    • #8
    • 15th Feb 18, 2:53 PM
    Additional information and some of the reason for my stress over not being sure how to proceed next - the permit is in my landlords name. He's renting to me direct without any contracts on a good rate.
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 15th Feb 18, 2:59 PM
    • 9,029 Posts
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    The Deep
    • #9
    • 15th Feb 18, 2:59 PM
    • #9
    • 15th Feb 18, 2:59 PM
    He's renting to me direct without any contracts on a good rate.

    Then he may well be breaking the law. Without a proper AST I do not see how you could win this, either at PoPLA or in court. I would advise you to pay them and ask that your tenancy be put on a legal footing.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • JohnDunn
    • By JohnDunn 15th Feb 18, 3:03 PM
    • 22 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    JohnDunn
    It's a close friend and a stop gap for a few months to help me out post divorce, so I am happy with the arrangement in the sense of the tenancy.

    Bearing this in mind, is even a well written appeal to the PPC worth trying? Looking back it's clear why my first appeal got nowhere.
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 15th Feb 18, 3:08 PM
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    nosferatu1001
    The Deep - if the landlord has permission to park vehicles granted already, they can without an AST grant that permission elsewher e- assuming it doesnt breach their own lease - no?
    I dont see why it wouldnt be winnable

    John - absolutely no chance a "well written" appela will do anything. As your reading around will have shown you, PPCs have zero incentive to accept appeals.

    If your landlord can just show you their lease, or their rights to park, you might find they dont have to EER disply a permit, and the PPC is just trying it on.
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 15th Feb 18, 3:14 PM
    • 9,029 Posts
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    The Deep
    To win this at PoPLA you have to prove that that your lease/AST gives you the unfettered right to park there, and that it trumps any made up terms and conditions which the PPC may rely on. You do not have a lease/AST.

    A PPC will reject your appeal, even if exquisitely written. If your landlord is not paying tax on your rent I am sure that he would not want this mentioned in court.
    Last edited by The Deep; 15-02-2018 at 3:16 PM.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 15th Feb 18, 3:15 PM
    • 56,149 Posts
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    Coupon-mad
    You might well be able to win at POPLA (OPS being not good at POPLA evidence), if you show your landlord's primacy of contract and maybe a letter from him saying, while staying in his flat, you had an unfettered right to park, flowing from his own rights in his lease (copy attached).

    You could have 100% won it had you appealed as 'hirer/lessee' of the car. Next time!!

    OPS are useless at POPLA and might forget the landowner authority anyway.

    Well worth putting together a strong POPLA appeal, and even if you decide not to try, I would NEVER tell a relative of mine to pay a penny to a firm like OPS! DO NOT PAY.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Half_way
    • By Half_way 15th Feb 18, 3:38 PM
    • 4,087 Posts
    • 5,791 Thanks
    Half_way
    As above, as your friend who you are renting off fur the details of they have primacy of lease and its their space then the ppc had no right in obtaining RK data, and using / processing it.
    Lots of ands and ifs, but if all lines up there could be a data protection act breach by the ppc and the management company that hired then.
    From the Plain Language Commission:

    "The BPA has surely become one of the most socially dangerous organisations in the UK"
    • waamo
    • By waamo 15th Feb 18, 3:39 PM
    • 2,991 Posts
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    waamo
    Current likelihood of them going to court looks very low.

    http://www.bmpa.eu/companydata/One_Parking_Solution.html
    This space for hire.
    • JohnDunn
    • By JohnDunn 15th Feb 18, 3:41 PM
    • 22 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    JohnDunn
    So bearing that in mind, as a leaser of my vehicle, I should still try a strong appeal for the second PCN from OPS?

    In the case of the second PCN the permit was half on display, infuriatingly. I've found it confusing reading the various threads and advice on the leasing aspect and receiving a Notice to Hirer over that of a Notice to Keeper.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 15th Feb 18, 5:53 PM
    • 56,149 Posts
    • 69,813 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    So bearing that in mind, as a leaser of my vehicle, I should still try a strong appeal for the second PCN from OPS?
    Yes. Show us your draft, like this lessee/contract hirer did earlier:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=73887484#post73887484

    Trouble is, if you said who was driving then you can't even use the POFA, at all.

    In the case of the second PCN the permit was half on display, infuriatingly. I've found it confusing reading the various threads and advice on the leasing aspect and receiving a Notice to Hirer over that of a Notice to Keeper.
    Doesn't matter if you threw that baby out with the bathwater, in the first appeal.

    The linked case shows a good appeal, from a hirer/lessee who hasn't blabbed about the driver. KInd of 'here's what you should have done'.

    However, I really would not lose any sleep over the ex-clampers OPS. Not the sharpest tools in the box at POPLA and not big on litigation, nor do they appear to have the nous to get such things right.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 15-02-2018 at 5:55 PM.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • JohnDunn
    • By JohnDunn 16th Feb 18, 10:31 AM
    • 22 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    JohnDunn
    Would paying up the first PCN have a negative effect on the second?
    • JohnDunn
    • By JohnDunn 16th Feb 18, 10:38 AM
    • 22 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    JohnDunn
    Ok here is the draft for appeal to OPS for PCN 2:

    "Dear One Parking Solutions Ltd

    RE: PCN No. xxxxxxxxx

    I would like you to know I (as the registered keeper of the vehicle) am not ignoring your letter suggesting my liability for a charge related to a parking infraction that you state took place on xx xxxxxxxx at xxxxxxxxx.

    I wish to outline my current position in reference to your PCN.

    Keepers Liability and POFA 2012
    As stated in paragraph 13(2) of POFA 2012...

    "The creditor may not exercise the right under paragraph 4 to recover from the keeper any unpaid parking charges specified in the notice to keeper if, within the period of 28 days beginning with the day after that on which that notice was given, the creditor is given!!!8212;

    (a) A statement signed by or on behalf of the vehicle-hire firm to the effect that at the material time the vehicle was hired to a named person under a hire agreement;

    (b) A copy of the hire agreement; and

    (c) A copy of a statement of liability signed by the hirer under that hire agreement.

    AND

    Paragraph 14(2) and (3) of POFA 2012:

    (2) The conditions are that !!!8212;
    (a) The creditor has within the relevant period given the hirer a notice in accordance with sub-paragraph (5) (a !!!8220;notice to hirer!!!8221, together with a copy of the documents mentioned in paragraph 13(2) and the notice to keeper;
    (b) A period of 21 days beginning with the day on which the notice to hirer was given has elapsed; and
    (c) The vehicle was not a stolen vehicle at the beginning of the period of parking to which the unpaid parking charges relate.
    (3) In sub-paragraph (2)(a) !!!8220;the relevant period!!!8221; is the period of 21 days beginning with the day after that on which the documents required by paragraph 13(2) are given to the creditor.[/I]

    - You were required to send this information to me (as Registered Keeper) within 21 days after receiving them from the lease/hire company (Arval).
    - You were required to send these documents to me no later than 49 days after the NTK was sent to the hire company, which was xx October.
    - Therefore I should have received these documents no later than xx December 2015.
    - As this has not happened, you cannot use POFA to assume keeper liability. There is more than one driver of the vehicle which you placed a PCN on.

    In Summary...
    - I wish to confirm to you I was NOT the driver of the vehicle.
    - I am not obliged to disclose the identity of the driver and this does not affect my liability in this matter .
    - As One Parking Solutions Ltd has not complied with paragraphs 13 (2) and 14 (2) of POFA 2012, you cannot rely on the provisions of the Act and hold me liable as keeper.
    - You will need to pursue this claim with the driver once you identify them.

    Further Questions
    To begin our discussions, as this is purely a claim under a purported contract, and you have no statutory footing to issue penalties, I wish to make you aware of the following details and require the specific information so that I can assess the validity of your claim:

    1. Who is the party that contracted with One Parking Solutions Ltd for the provision of their services at the site of the alleged to have taken place in Cardiff (Ferry Road Retail Park)?
    2. What is the full legal identity of the landowner?
    3. As you are not the landowner, please provide a contemporaneous and unredacted copy of your contract with the landholder that demonstrate that One Parking Solutions Ltd have the authority of the landowner to both issue parking charges and legislate in your own name or on behalf of the landowner .
    4. Is your charge based on damages for breach of contract? - Yes or no?
    5. If the charge is based on damages for breach of contract, please provide justification of this sum.
    6. Is your charge based on a contractually agreed sum for the provision of parking? - Yes or no?
    7. If the charge is based on a contractually agreed sum for the provision of parking please, provide a valid VAT invoice as you make no mention on VAT in any correspondence.
    8. The signage to the site (from a seated position in the vehicle as it enters the car park is impossible to read and any specific rules regarding stopping on yellow lines being strictly prohibited at any time. Please provide a copy of the sign that purportedly forms the basis of the contract entered into by the driver for my records.
    9. I believe the parking attendant who took photos of this vehicle (as the driver sat momentarily with the engine running on double yellow lines) made no attempt to make the driver aware he should move the car or face a parking charge. It is the responsibility of the claimant (One Parking Solutions Ltd) to mitigate their losses, in this instance I believe they failed to do so and thus invalidates your claim. I refer you to the county court judgement in VCS vs. Ibbotson (2012):

    Link: http://nebula.wsimg.com/e3da92cb966c72de63ec1f98605c2954?AccessKeyId=4CB8F 2392A09CF228A46&disposition=0&alloworigin=1

    Next Steps
    When I receive a full reply to all these questions i will be in a position to be able to furnish you with a full response.

    Alternatively you can cancel your charge, or I will happily wait for my day in court to challenge this PCN as the registered keeper of the vehicle.

    Note: I have contacted the landowner to strongly protest in writing the basis for this PCN.

    Yours
    Xxxxxx xxxxxxx"
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 16th Feb 18, 11:26 AM
    • 17,286 Posts
    • 27,230 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    1. Who is the party that contracted with One Parking Solutions Ltd for the provision of their services at the site of the alleged to have taken place in Cardiff (Ferry Road Retail Park)?
    9. I believe the parking attendant who took photos of this vehicle (as the driver sat momentarily with the engine running on double yellow lines) made no attempt to make the driver aware he should move the car or face a parking charge.
    Neither of the above statements seem to gel with your opening post where you said this:

    They are the private parking company managing the private parking area where I am currently renting.

    On the first occasion I had forgotten to place my permit on the dash after a period of stress. The second I without realising had had the permit obscured under the tint on the bottom of my car's windscreen.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
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