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  • FIRST POST
    • charlie 2015
    • By charlie 2015 9th Feb 18, 3:55 PM
    • 35Posts
    • 8Thanks
    charlie 2015
    Training costs
    • #1
    • 9th Feb 18, 3:55 PM
    Training costs 9th Feb 18 at 3:55 PM
    Hi there,

    I am posting this on behalf of a friend, lets call her Betty.

    Betty has been working for her at her company for over 2 years. The company agreed to pay training costs for her to become qualified in her profession. The company signed her up on the training course at a local college and she started in January 2017. In February 2017, Betty found out she was pregnant and informed the company.

    In February 2017 (after finding out Betty was pregnant) the company asked her to sign a document saying that she will be liable for the training costs if she leaves the role, is dismissed or fails the training exams. The document does not outline the costs associated to the training course.

    Betty signed the document and has said herself she felt pressured and that it was sprung on her after she informed the company she was pregnant.

    Betty is now coming to the final few months of her maternity leave. Ideally, she would like to quit her job to become a full time mum but is terrified of the costs she could be liable for.

    Has her employer acted lawfully here? Has she signed her life away with this document?

    Any help would be appreciated
Page 2
    • JReacher1
    • By JReacher1 10th Feb 18, 11:09 AM
    • 2,763 Posts
    • 3,797 Thanks
    JReacher1
    I will bite one last time and then I wont be using these forums again. More hassle than its worth!

    Nicechap asked if its fair the company invest 5k in training. Previous to his comment I said I am willing to pay the 5k back albeit not all at once. If the company get their money back then I dont see how fair comes into it. Therefore, it is possible to assume "nicechap" implied i wouldnt be paying it back, or he didn't read my previous post.

    Quite common to see the full time poster gang having eachother backs.
    Originally posted by charlie 2015
    I also thought that is was they implied. I can see why you took offence.

    The trick is to not take it personally. It is a good forum this and you can get some great advice. Stick around.
    • jobbingmusician
    • By jobbingmusician 10th Feb 18, 11:26 AM
    • 19,141 Posts
    • 19,609 Thanks
    jobbingmusician
    Changing the subject somewhat.

    If you have to pay for the training, you may as well do it. Separately from your negotiations with the employer there are possible options.

    1. If you can't now do the training, is the whole amount payable? Can they transfer the training to another employee? (there may be some cost as presumably the company would have to pay again for the new person to do the first 6 months)

    2. If they can't, is there any way you can do the training from home? After all, it's your training if you pay for it. It may stand you in good stead for an eventual return to work.
    I'm the Board Guide on the Matched Betting; Referrers and Jobseeking & Training boards. I'm a volunteer to help the boards run smoothly, and I can move and merge posts there. Board guides are not moderators and don't read every post. If you spot an illegal or inappropriate post then please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com (it's not part of my role to deal with this). Any views are mine and not the official line of MoneySavingExpert.com.

    The good folk of the matched betting board are now (I hope!) supporting Macmillan, in memory of Fifigrace. Visit
    https://www.gofundme.com/running-the-leeds-10k-for-macmillan
    • Ja7188
    • By Ja7188 10th Feb 18, 11:49 AM
    • 151 Posts
    • 163 Thanks
    Ja7188
    Putting aside the various "misunderstandings" in this thread, it now seems to be clear that "Betty" cannot return to work and it is liable for a £5000 charge - and I'm assuming that the sliding scale doesn't exist in this case.

    The point has been made above that the company could perhaps transfer the training to someone else and if I were "Betty" I would be proactive in ensuring that they look into this. Assuming that "Betty" isn't the only person in the company with the same job, this could well be a possibility.

    I would also suggest that "Betty" personally checks the college's policy on people dropping out and if they will offer a pro-rata refund, this should obviously be reflected in any charge made to her.

    If the worst comes to the worst, "Betty" will probably have to pay the £5000 back and although the company looks to be under no obligation to accept this back in installments, they may agree to do so - the only way to find out is to ask!
    • charlie 2015
    • By charlie 2015 10th Feb 18, 12:13 PM
    • 35 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    charlie 2015
    Thanks to Sangie and Nicechap for trying to help, your time will probably be better used posting in another thread.

    To clear things up for the other helpful posters

    The reason i signed the document in the first place was because I was somewhat cornered. I had already started the training but was employed for under two years, I either signed the document or faced the potential of being dismissed .

    I cannot carry on the training as a requirement is to have X amount of hours in a workplace.

    I dont think its possible to transfer the training but I could ask I guess.

    Normally, if this is self funded you can get a learner loan from the government to fund it. Would it be possible for me to go down that route and pay this back in the same way as a student loan?

    Thanks
    • charlie 2015
    • By charlie 2015 10th Feb 18, 12:20 PM
    • 35 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    charlie 2015
    Additionally the document I signed says that I will be liable for the training costs if I am dismissed, terminate employment or fail the course. Also clauses are in there after the training is complete but that is irrelevant
    • nicechap
    • By nicechap 10th Feb 18, 1:45 PM
    • 1,101 Posts
    • 2,344 Thanks
    nicechap
    Thanks to Sangie and Nicechap for trying to help, your time will probably be better used posting in another thread.

    To clear things up for the other helpful posters

    The reason i signed the document in the first place was because I was somewhat cornered. I had already started the training but was employed for under two years, I either signed the document or faced the potential of being dismissed .

    I cannot carry on the training as a requirement is to have X amount of hours in a workplace.

    I dont think its possible to transfer the training but I could ask I guess.

    Normally, if this is self funded you can get a learner loan from the government to fund it. Would it be possible for me to go down that route and pay this back in the same way as a student loan?

    Thanks
    Originally posted by charlie 2015
    Its a big shame that Sangie is unable to reply further on this thread as she has previously been able to clarify when training costs are repayable and when not to other MSErs.

    I note, that in your thread of last March you had not signed, but now it transpires you have. It doesn't sound like you were coerced, dismissing someone after they have declared they are pregnant is a brave action for an employer.

    Good luck with explaining that you want a trainer/ student loan to pay off a debt to a previous employer.
    Quote was right and saw into the future.
    • charlie 2015
    • By charlie 2015 10th Feb 18, 2:01 PM
    • 35 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    charlie 2015
    Please delete this thread mods. I've had enough now. Nicechap appears to have no restraint and is insistent on derailing my thread.
    • BorisThomson
    • By BorisThomson 10th Feb 18, 2:29 PM
    • 1,586 Posts
    • 3,420 Thanks
    BorisThomson
    Additionally the document I signed says that I will be liable for the training costs if I am dismissed, terminate employment or fail the course. Also clauses are in there after the training is complete but that is irrelevant
    Originally posted by charlie 2015
    You are terminating your employment.

    You will not get a govt loan for a course you are not doing.

    You have already caused a great deal of disruption to your employer by taking maternity and then deciding to resign (both of which you are lawfully entitled to do, but nonetheless incur expense and inconvenience to the business and your ex colleagues). You'll understand if your employer may be firm in enforcing the terms of your agreement.
    • gettingtheresometime
    • By gettingtheresometime 10th Feb 18, 2:31 PM
    • 3,597 Posts
    • 8,936 Thanks
    gettingtheresometime
    Its a big shame that Sangie is unable to reply further on this thread as she has previously been able to clarify when training costs are repayable and when not to other MSErs.

    I note, that in your thread of last March you had not signed, but now it transpires you have. It doesn't sound like you were coerced, dismissing someone after they have declared they are pregnant is a brave action for an employer.

    Good luck with explaining that you want a trainer/ student loan to pay off a debt to a previous employer.
    Originally posted by nicechap
    I wasn’t sure what you meant by Sangie not being able to post, then I realised she’d been pprd (which I think is a great shame).

    My take on the situation is that the OP started the course, became pregnant & then it dawned on the employer that the OP may not come back so quickly put something in place just in case & given the fact that the OP is considering/decided not to go back (for whatever reason) , it looks like the company thought correctly.

    Personally I doubt very much that they’ll accept repayment in small instalments - even at £100 per month, that would be over a 4 year period - so I’m guessing the repayment will be immediate & in full.
    Lloyds OD / Natwest OD / PO CC / Wescott / Argos Card cleared thanks to the 1 debt v 100 day challenge


    Next on the list - JD Williams
    • Cheeky_Monkey
    • By Cheeky_Monkey 10th Feb 18, 2:59 PM
    • 1,657 Posts
    • 3,402 Thanks
    Cheeky_Monkey
    Please delete this thread mods. I've had enough now. Nicechap appears to have no restraint and is insistent on derailing my thread.
    Originally posted by charlie 2015
    Your thread won't be deleted. It will probably just be locked so that it can still be read by other people who may need the same/similar advice.
    I used to be indecisive - now I'm not so sure
    • nicechap
    • By nicechap 10th Feb 18, 5:44 PM
    • 1,101 Posts
    • 2,344 Thanks
    nicechap
    .....

    My take on the situation is that the OP started the course, became pregnant & then it dawned on the employer that the OP may not come back so quickly put something in place just in case & given the fact that the OP is considering/decided not to go back (for whatever reason) , it looks like the company thought correctly.

    ......
    Originally posted by gettingtheresometime
    In the opening post, they said Betty wanted to be a full time mum but then it transpired the OP asked the same question for themself a year ago.

    A week ago, the OP said they'd been offered a new job and were fretting about flexible hours.

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5788145

    Maybe their new employer will give them a signing on bonus/ golden handcuffs as they are obviously a real catch.
    Quote was right and saw into the future.
    • charlie 2015
    • By charlie 2015 10th Feb 18, 6:35 PM
    • 35 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    charlie 2015
    So it didnt occur to you this isnt actually about me? Either way my other thread is irrelevant to the questions I asked.

    Do us a favour mate...
    • nicechap
    • By nicechap 10th Feb 18, 6:47 PM
    • 1,101 Posts
    • 2,344 Thanks
    nicechap
    I will bite one last time and then I wont be using these forums again. More hassle than its worth!

    Nicechap asked if its fair the company invest 5k in training. Previous to his comment I said I am willing to pay the 5k back albeit not all at once. If the company get their money back then I dont see how fair comes into it. Therefore, it is possible to assume "nicechap" implied i wouldnt be paying it back, or he didn't read my previous post.

    Quite common to see the full time poster gang having eachother backs.
    Originally posted by charlie 2015
    Quoted, just in case it gets changed and to illustrate earlier points.
    Quote was right and saw into the future.
    • charlie 2015
    • By charlie 2015 10th Feb 18, 7:19 PM
    • 35 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    charlie 2015
    I think all that illustrates is how petty you are
    • gettingtheresometime
    • By gettingtheresometime 10th Feb 18, 8:42 PM
    • 3,597 Posts
    • 8,936 Thanks
    gettingtheresometime
    In the opening post, they said Betty wanted to be a full time mum but then it transpired the OP asked the same question for themself a year ago.

    A week ago, the OP said they'd been offered a new job and were fretting about flexible hours.

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5788145

    Maybe their new employer will give them a signing on bonus/ golden handcuffs as they are obviously a real catch.
    Originally posted by nicechap
    Regardless of whether the OP is asking for a friend or themselves, I’d still bet that the employer’s thought process was as I described it.

    However regardless of why the friend/OP has decided not to return the fact remains an agreement was signed & I doubt very much whether it can be repaid in installments
    Lloyds OD / Natwest OD / PO CC / Wescott / Argos Card cleared thanks to the 1 debt v 100 day challenge


    Next on the list - JD Williams
    • charlie 2015
    • By charlie 2015 10th Feb 18, 9:10 PM
    • 35 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    charlie 2015
    Thanks gettingtheresometime. I think you have answered my questions quite clearly. I just want to make it crystal clear that I am more than willing to pay the employer back for training costs without question, its just I cannot afford it all at once. I am sure we can come to an arrangement amicably.
    • t0rt0ise
    • By t0rt0ise 10th Feb 18, 10:49 PM
    • 3,001 Posts
    • 1,871 Thanks
    t0rt0ise
    If it were me I would ask the college whether the employer will be charged for the three years or just the first year or even termly, and how much it will be. I also think, although it’s a mere guess, that the employer will take installments as they will know that doing otherwise is rather like a blood out of a stone situation.
    • nicechap
    • By nicechap 11th Feb 18, 7:09 AM
    • 1,101 Posts
    • 2,344 Thanks
    nicechap
    Regardless of whether the OP is asking for a friend or themselves, I’d still bet that the employer’s thought process was as I described it.

    However regardless of why the friend/OP has decided not to return the fact remains an agreement was signed & I doubt very much whether it can be repaid in installments
    Originally posted by gettingtheresometime
    I suspect you'd win that bet too!! And it looks like they were right to get an agreement signed. Its not surprising employers are reluctant to sponsor study with the kind of behaviour demonstrated here.

    I'm sure there are ways to challenge the contents of the agreement, but the obstinate refusal to share the actual contents, as opposed to selective snippets, reinforces my suspicion that they are a victim of their own behaviour. I suspect the employer will be better off without them in the long run, just a shame for anyone else who works there and would have liked support to study for a qualification.
    Quote was right and saw into the future.
    • ThemeOne
    • By ThemeOne 11th Feb 18, 7:40 AM
    • 1,217 Posts
    • 1,029 Thanks
    ThemeOne
    And therein was your big mistake. Asking a question on MSE can be like being cross examined in court or complaining to an HR manager - you suddenly realise these people are not here to help you.

    A shame that sangie can no longer post here? I don't think so - she may know employment law but she's invariably rude and patronising. I can only hope she's nicer to people who pay her for advice.
    • ThemeOne
    • By ThemeOne 11th Feb 18, 7:41 AM
    • 1,217 Posts
    • 1,029 Thanks
    ThemeOne
    Oh and don't bother asking "mods" to do anything. These threads are not actively moderated, which is why there's so much bad behaviour on them.
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